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Independent discoveries of the same thing

Orphia Nay

Penguilicious Spodmaster., Tagger
Orphia Nay
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A post in the Israeli Jar thread got me thinking.

What discoveries do we know of that were discovered by more than one society (or person) in more than one place?

Pyramid structures.
Use of hallucinogenic drugs (as per the interesting post by @grunion ).
Beer/alcohol.
What else?

And have you ever thought of an invention only to find it already existed? I have.
 
Darwin and Wallace is a classic example, they derived theories of natural selection quite independently and more or less simultaneously. Unlike Newton and Leibniz, though, they had a very good working relationship and developed it together.

Dave
 
If you give any credence to the concept of Technological Determinism, then the answer is Almost Everything. Aka as Steam Engine Time.
SET is generally credited to Charles_FortWP

What he actually wrote is;
If human thought is a growth, like all other growths, its logic is without foundation of its own, and is only the adjusting constructiveness of all other growing things. A tree cannot find out, as it were, how to blossom, until comes blossom-time. A social growth cannot find out the use of steam engines, until comes steam-engine-time.
Click to expand...

Full(er) discussion here:
kk.org

Steam-Engine-Time

This long revealing interview with William Gibson is a gold mine. In addition to being a gifted writer, Gibson is one of the best conversationalists I’ve encountered. I could listen to him all day. (This interview in The Paris Review … Continue reading →
kk.org

For proof just Google the history of anything from Abacus to Zero.
 
We've have to go a long way back in time, but I'd suggest cheese would be one.

Following these steps:

1. Discover that a salvaged stomach can be used as a bag to carry liquids.
2. Use a stomach bag to carry milk.
3. Discover that milk, in the stomach bag, has turned into something yummy and long lasting.

Damn. The word 'stomach' has now gone weird in my head, with my brain insisting that it is not spelled or pronounced the way that it is.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
If you give any credence to the concept of Technological Determinism, then the answer is Almost Everything. Aka as Steam Engine Time.
SET is generally credited to Charles_FortWP

What he actually wrote is;

If human thought is a growth, like all other growths, its logic is without foundation of its own, and is only the adjusting constructiveness of all other growing things. A tree cannot find out, as it were, how to blossom, until comes blossom-time. A social growth cannot find out the use of steam engines, until comes steam-engine-time.
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I don't get the first sentence of that, but I like the rest:

"If human thought is a growth, like all other growths, its logic is without foundation of its own, and is only the adjusting constructiveness of all other growing things. A tree cannot find out, as it were, how to blossom, until comes blossom-time. A social growth cannot find out the use of steam engines, until comes steam-engine-time."


I don't think thought is a growth.
 

Independent discoveries of the same thing​

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Reminds me of a revealing discussion among a few of us classmates in middle school...
Orphia Nay said:
And have you ever thought of an invention only to find it already existed? I have.
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Working on several projects over the last few years, yes, several times. I was often surprised at thinking I'd come up with something only to Google it and find it's already been done. But sometimes more surprised when I can't find anything. I already have the one Patent, now in the works for a second one.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Who else thought of it?
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From Wikipedia:

There is debate whether the Pythagorean theorem was discovered once, or many times in many places, and the date of first discovery is uncertain, as is the date of the first proof. Historians of Mesopotamian mathematics have concluded that the Pythagorean rule was in widespread use during the Old Babylonian period (20th to 16th centuries BC), over a thousand years before Pythagoras was born.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem#cite_note-68"><span>[</span>68<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem#cite_note-69"><span>[</span>69<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem#cite_note-70"><span>[</span>70<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem#cite_note-71"><span>[</span>71<span>]</span></a> The history of the theorem can be divided into four parts: knowledge of Pythagorean triples, knowledge of the relationship among the sides of a right triangle, knowledge of the relationships among adjacent angles, and proofs of the theorem within some deductive system.
 
Pyramids
theprestige said:
For something that far back in history, I'd want to see evidence of some other civilization arriving the same conclusion. A variety of attributions about ancient Greeks by ancient Greeks doesn't work for me.
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The first thing I thought of when this topic came up was the its use to build the Pyramids.
The Geometry of Pyramid Bases Ancient Egyptian architects used principles similar to the Pythagorean Theorem, often utilizing ropes with knots to ensure right angles and perfect square bases. This square base represented the four cardinal points and ensured structural stability.
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our-ancestories.com

Unraveling the Mathematical Genius of Ancient Egyptian Pyramids

The ancient Egyptian pyramids are truly iconic marvels that have stood the test of time. Rising from the desert sands with their majestic presence, they've captured the imaginations of people worldwide for centuries. Beyond their grandeur, the mathematical precision with which they were designed...
our-ancestories.com our-ancestories.com

We don't know how they expressed it mathematically but the Ancient Egyptians certainly used it.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
We don't know how they expressed it mathematically but the Ancient Egyptians certainly used it.
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We actually know quite a lot about how ancient Egyptians expressed their mathematics. There are several papyri specifically posing problems and questions about mathematics and geometry that were thought to have been used in the education of scribes. For example, we know they had a formula for calculating the volume of a truncated pyramid.

Once upon a time I had a copy of The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics by George Gheverghese Joseph. I don't know what happened to it, and whenever I look for it online it's ridiculously expensive for a paperback. Fascinating book.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Pyramids


The first thing I thought of when this topic came up was the its use to build the Pyramids.


our-ancestories.com

Unraveling the Mathematical Genius of Ancient Egyptian Pyramids

The ancient Egyptian pyramids are truly iconic marvels that have stood the test of time. Rising from the desert sands with their majestic presence, they've captured the imaginations of people worldwide for centuries. Beyond their grandeur, the mathematical precision with which they were designed...
our-ancestories.com our-ancestories.com

We don't know how they expressed it mathematically but the Ancient Egyptians certainly used it.
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I'm not sure you need to know Pythagoras to draw squares and circles.

But squares and circles arose independently in places nonetheless.
 
arthwollipot said:
We actually know quite a lot about how ancient Egyptians expressed their mathematics. There are several papyri specifically posing problems and questions about mathematics and geometry that were thought to have been used in the education of scribes. For example, we know they had a formula for calculating the volume of a truncated pyramid.

Once upon a time I had a copy of The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics by George Gheverghese Joseph. I don't know what happened to it, and whenever I look for it online it's ridiculously expensive for a paperback. Fascinating book.
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Ah. Thanks for the education. I was not aware of any details. Just that they applied the theory. :w2:
 
We know the Egyptians used trial and error to build pyramids. There are examples of failed ones
 
This is a cool thread, am enjoying reading it, and the links people have presented.

The "steam-engine time" thing was an interesting idea! ...Is it actually a thing, though? Had the Romans actually gone ahead and invented a full-on steam engine, rather than toys merely, then I guess we'd have said that that period was when the steam-engine time was. ...What I'm asking is, has anyone heard of this thing, apart from this guy's take? Is it something that's seriously considered as ...well, true? By sociologists, I suppose?

(But even if it is just one guy's idiosyncratic take, a sci-fi writer's imagination doing its thing, even so it's a very interesting idea, and persuasively enough presented. Enjoyed reading that interview.)

__________

No one seems to have mentioned agriculture in this thread yet, unless I'm mistaken. I suppose that also would qualify as a discovery, invention, technology, whatever, that happened independently across cultures?
 
Just a few others: clothing, jewelry, art, music, tools, cooking, social structures... this list might get awfully long.

Eta: no one said gods, religion, marriage yet? And while on that subject, war and murder?
 
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Chanakya said:
This is a cool thread, am enjoying reading it, and the links people have presented.

The "steam-engine time" thing was an interesting idea! ...Is it actually a thing, though? Had the Romans actually gone ahead and invented a full-on steam engine, rather than toys merely, then I guess we'd have said that that period was when the steam-engine time was. ...What I'm asking is, has anyone heard of this thing, apart from this guy's take? Is it something that's seriously considered as ...well, true? By sociologists, I suppose?

(But even if it is just one guy's idiosyncratic take, a sci-fi writer's imagination doing its thing, even so it's a very interesting idea, and persuasively enough presented. Enjoyed reading that interview.)

__________

No one seems to have mentioned agriculture in this thread yet, unless I'm mistaken. I suppose that also would qualify as a discovery, invention, technology, whatever, that happened independently across cultures?
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I haven't mentioned agriculture et. al because discoveries whose origins are lost to the mists of time and the fog of prehistory don't really interest me in this context. We have records and artifacts that tell us various civilizations figured out the principles of right angles ("the Pythagorean theorem") more or less independently. We have no records or artifacts telling us that this hunter-gatherer tribe and that hunter-gatherer tribe each figured out agriculture independently. Without being able to trace the history of who and when, it's boring to me. Just truthy hand-waving.
 
I seem to recall reading about remains of prehistoric teeth found which "showed" that the people there used stone to grind flour earlier than was known. That's kind of "truthy" but kind of "facty".

But yeah, not really the area of knowledge the thread was about, but I thought Agriculture was at least worth mentioning, thanks Chanakya.
 
The Rhind Mathematical Papyrus is the oldest manuscript written in algebra and trigonometry, dating back to 3,550 years ago.

It shows that the Egyptians used first-order equations, geometric series and a second-order algebraic equation, related to the Pythagorean theorem a² + b² = c²

It also describes how to obtain an approximation of π accurate to within less than 1% and one of the earliest attempts at squaring the circle.GdyiTW5WEAAFGHF.jpg
 
Darat said:
As monuments go a pyramid is bound to be the one most folk think of, probably the first as after all they are manmade hills.
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They are most likely to survive long periods too, hence the famous question:

"Why did so many civilisations build pyramids?"

"Everything else they built fell over."
 
novaphile said:
They are most likely to survive long periods too, hence the famous question:

"Why did so many civilisations build pyramids?"

"Everything else they built fell over."
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“When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up.“
 
novaphile said:
They are most likely to survive long periods too, hence the famous question:

"Why did so many civilisations build pyramids?"

"Everything else they built fell over."
Click to expand...
The first stone masons were as clever as modern humans, but they hadn't yet invented arches, flying buttresses, domes etc, or concrete or mortar, all they knew how to do how to do was pile one stone on top of another (although they were very good indeed at that). Then the big chief decides he wants an impressive tomb built. So they need to build the tallest possible building, for the minimum possible amount of stone and effort. What are they going to build?
 
Pixel42 said:
The first stone masons were as clever as modern humans, but they hadn't yet invented arches, flying buttresses, domes etc, or concrete or mortar, all they knew how to do how to do was pile one stone on top of another (although they were very good indeed at that). Then the big chief decides he wants an impressive tomb built. So they need to build the tallest possible building, for the minimum possible amount of stone and effort. What are they going to build?
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A pile of dirt with rocks stuck on the outside.

:)

I also suspect that pyramids are a natural extension of the 'barrow' idea. (i.e. a pile of dirt).

(I know, I know, I'm over-simplifying.)
 
Chanakya said:
The "steam-engine time" thing was an interesting idea! ...Is it actually a thing, though? Had the Romans actually gone ahead and invented a full-on steam engine, rather than toys merely, then I guess we'd have said that that period was when the steam-engine time was. ...What I'm asking is, has anyone heard of this thing, apart from this guy's take? Is it something that's seriously considered as ...well, true? By sociologists, I suppose?
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My impression is that the Roman era knew of steam engines as a concept, they had some little steam powered spinny toys.

But they lacked the metallurgical ability to size it up very much. I remember seeing a documentary claiming that an armor breastplate was just about the biggest single-piece bit of steel or iron thing that could be made at the time. Rivets were used to make bigger things by joining smaller things, but those joints might not have been capable of sealing in steam under pressure. They could make waterproof things with lead, like liners for aqueducts - but nothing that could handle enough pressure for a working steam engine.

So steam-engine time was an offshoot of "really big and good quality iron things" time. Plus the valves and controls to allow actual control.

Think of as a it like a space elevator. We have the concept, we have actual elevators for buildings. But we already know that we can't make an actual space elevator until we develop some sort of super-high tensile strength thing to build it with. We are with space elevators where the Romans were with steam engines. We have the concept, but we don't yet have the materials to build it.
 
One more for the, it would have been surprising if pyramids weren't invented independently around the world, I invented them when I was 3, as I imagine all of you did too. Oh but how come they are so much alike all over the world. Dude, they're basically a pile of rectangular rocks, what do you think they're gonna look like? That element of the ancient aliens or super civilization stuff struck me as stupid by the time I was 6, How does that convince anyone?

Cows were domesticated twice, that always seemed cool to me. Both are descended from aurochs but look very different.

Calculus has always amazed me that two guys working independently somehow figured it out almost at the same time when most folks even now struggle with it.

Similarly, evolution, Wallace and Darwin almost at the same time too.
 
arthwollipot said:
We actually know quite a lot about how ancient Egyptians expressed their mathematics. There are several papyri specifically posing problems and questions about mathematics and geometry that were thought to have been used in the education of scribes. For example, we know they had a formula for calculating the volume of a truncated pyramid.

Once upon a time I had a copy of The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics by George Gheverghese Joseph. I don't know what happened to it, and whenever I look for it online it's ridiculously expensive for a paperback. Fascinating book.
Click to expand...

This makes me wonder what sort of math the meso-American cultures had.
 
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