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Does NATO need the USA?

You are wrong.

He's not wrong. He's just casual about the amount of European lives that would have to be sacrificed to secure victory. Right now, Ukraine is supplying those lives, which is why he feels comfortable being so cavalier about it. If it were a choice between US lives, as NATO promises, and European lives, he'd get a lot less casual really fast.

It'd be a different matter entirely, if he were to say that he believed European lives should be spent in defense Europe, and American lives should be called upon only in extremity,and repaid with generations of heartfelt gratitude. REFORGER is glory to America, and shame to Europe.
 
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The EU needs a proper defensive military system. As we've seen in the last few decades NATO is not it, and probably never was.

NATO was conceived as a way to keep US armies in Europe against a Soviet "threat" that never really materialised. Now even the shadow of that threat is gone, a better system needs to be created.

It certainly materialized in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the Baltic states, Poland etc...
 
It certainly materialized in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the Baltic states, Poland etc...

Seems to me that the US presence in Europe in the COld War was a major reason that the Soviet Union never tried to "Liberate" Western Europe.
Fact is, the basic malignacy of the Soviet Union is being forgotton by a lot of people.
 
People born after the Warsaw Pact was a done deal have a hard time understanding how that deal was done. It never occurs to them ask why so many Warsaw Pact vassals scrambled to join NATO the moment they had the chance.
 
One the one hand, it's nice to be friends with someone who can get you out of any barfight.

But that is somewhat offset by the fact that said friend constantly gets himself into barfights.

Many of the fights Europe has to contribute to are the result of US mishandling.
 
Among nations with baltic coastline only Germany and Denmark are below 2%.
Denmark has just decided on a huge increase of military spending.

This time it is not because of fear of Trump, but because the war in Ukraine has shown how unprepared we really are, particularly after it has turned out that recent cuts have not just been to the bone, but into the bone.

I imagine that we should now be above 2%, although it will take a while before the sinking ship has been patched up.
 
the 2% number is largely irrelevant, militarily.

because of vastly different production costs, some countries can do far more with far less than others.

2% won't transform Germany's mostly dysfunctional army into something that would actually be effective in a combat situation.
 
Many of the fights Europe has to contribute to are the result of US mishandling.
I disagree. The only fight that i can think of that started because of US mishandling, was the second Iraq war. And that war was particularly mishandled after it ended. Afghanistan harboured Al-Qaida which was a threat to all. That war was also mishandled after the initial victory, but I think that everybody were equally naive in their dealings with the Afghans.

The Serbian and Libyan interventions were specifically at the request of Europeans.
 
And the first Iraq war.

Saddam invaded with Bush's blessing.

Afghanistan is the result of messed up US politics, and Iraq 2 continue to have knock-on effects in the entire region.

So yes: most conflicts have the US as both the cause and the solution.
 
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I think Trump is incredibly evil and wrpong on Nato, but seeing the amount of venom against the US by some Euros in this thread, I can see the emotinal appeal of a "To Hell With Europe" attitude.

So can I, and I'm european. There's some who hate "the west" with a passion, to the extent that they're quite disappointed that Russia didn't overrun Europe after WW2 (communism and all that)

A bit like Jeremy Corbyn.
 
Well, apart from Vietnam. And Iraq. Plus Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, the overthrow of Iran's government in the 1950s, the bombing of Laos and Cambodia, the current actions in Yemen, actions in Sudan and Libya....
So, yeah, you're right. If we don't count all of the times the US has launched imperialist military actions, then they haven't launched any. :rolleyes:

None of which were or are imperialist in nature.


Your definition of "imperialist" seems very idiosyncratic to me.

Here is the "idiosyncratic" dictionary definition of imperialism:
a system in which a country rules other countries, sometimes having used force to get power over them; a situation in which one country has a lot of power or influence over others, especially in political and economic matters

Now read that list of interventions again.
Oh, and I forgot Chile. That needs to go on the list, too.
 
You do understand that the Baltic country actually do pay their fair share? Right?

[qimg]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1487&pictureid=13938[/qimg]

Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland all above the recommended 2% threshold. Sweden's not on that map but they're at 2.1%. Among nations with baltic coastline only Germany and Denmark are below 2%.

France is ******.

Had no idea that North Macedonia even existed but good for them for getting it close. Even it's about $30,000.
 
If they all got through perhaps, but I'm skeptical. There's still no doubt that the UK and northern France would be obliterated.

I'm sceptical that Russia has defence forces currently capable of standing up to an army equipped with Napoleonic era weapons and transports for more than a couple of weeks.

Based on actual performance, your scepticism has no basis in reality.
 
I'm sceptical that Russia has defence forces currently capable of standing up to an army equipped with Napoleonic era weapons and transports for more than a couple of weeks.

Based on actual performance, your scepticism has no basis in reality.

I was talking about nukes specifically, not ground troops. Do you think every nuke that the UK and France could launch would get to target?
 
I disagree. The only fight that i can think of that started because of US mishandling, was the second Iraq war. And that war was particularly mishandled after it ended. Afghanistan harboured Al-Qaida which was a threat to all. That war was also mishandled after the initial victory, but I think that everybody were equally naive in their dealings with the Afghans.

The Serbian and Libyan interventions were specifically at the request of Europeans.

Even the initial going in to Afghanistan was mishandled, the Taliban leadership at the time were willing to hand over bin Laden to a third country (probably Turkey) to deliver him to the US authorities. By September 2001 they wanted rid of al-Qaeda themselves as they were more trouble than they were worth.

But then again Shrub 2 wasn't that interested in justice, more so in the jump in the polls a war would bring him.
 
They weren't why NATO was created.

In late February 1948, the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia (KSČ), with Soviet backing, assumed undisputed control over the government of Czechoslovakia through a coup d'état.....
The coup's significance extended well beyond the state's boundaries as it was a clear marker along the already well-advanced road to full-fledged Cold War. The event alarmed Western countries and helped spur quick adoption of the Marshall Plan, the creation of a state in West Germany, paramilitary measures to keep communists out of power in France, Greece and especially Italy, and steps toward mutual security that would, in little over a year, result in the establishment of NATO and the definitive drawing of the Iron Curtain until the Revolutions of 1989.

The descent of the Iron Curtain was indeed what caused the establishment of NATO, and Czechoslovakia was one of the countries that had been swallowed by the Soviet Union. NATO was formed to stop that spreading further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d'état
 
Without the USA, wouldn't it be 'NEATO'?

I thought it would be East Atlantic Treaty Organisation, but I guess if Canada stays it would be CEATO.

Could they get Honduras to join so it could be CHEATO?
 
He's not wrong. He's just casual about the amount of European lives that would have to be sacrificed to secure victory. Right now, Ukraine is supplying those lives, which is why he feels comfortable being so cavalier about it. If it were a choice between US lives, as NATO promises, and European lives, he'd get a lot less casual really fast.

It'd be a different matter entirely, if he were to say that he believed European lives should be spent in defense Europe, and American lives should be called upon only in extremity,and repaid with generations of heartfelt gratitude. REFORGER is glory to America, and shame to Europe.

In a non nuclear war European lives are and will always be spent in defense of Europe, with an especially heavy civilian toll the US will/would not have to field, including all the deaths of a destroyed infrastructure.
In fact, if I recall that was always one of the strengths of NATO, the US could wage war in Europe without being seriously hurt as long as things stayed conventional and thus provide materiel and manpower to nations that themselves had been ravaged by the war.

In a nuclear war it's irrelevant, no US soldiers would be able to move to Europe as everyone on the world will be dead within a day or so.
 
NATO helped us after 9-11.

Complete betrayal if we leave NATO or state we will not defend a NATO member if attacked.
 
Here is the "idiosyncratic" dictionary definition of imperialism:
LOL is that the Urban Dictionary definition?

Now read that list of interventions again.
Oh, and I forgot Chile. That needs to go on the list, too.

None of this is expanding hegemony through force of arms. All of these interventions were and are understood to be temporary, with sovereignty reverting to the invaded or attacked country at the conclusion of hostilities (if sovereignty was ever in question to begin with). At no time in living memory has the US sought to occupy and rule over another country, as part of a growing American "empire".

You can expand the definition of imperialism if you want, to include "cultural imperialism", diplomacy, peaceful trade, having friends and allies around the world, etc. But the more you expand it, the more it looks like you're stretching to have something to gripe about.

America is the least imperialistic empire in the history of imperialism, the most benevolent empire in the history of the world, and NATO is the least imperialistic part of it. Complain about western "empires" in the modern age? Might as well complain about imperialist France, and its influence over Europe. Might as well complain about imperialist Britain, which punches far above its weight, influence-wise.

Might as well complain about Moscow, which actually is an imperialist regime, in a way that America isn't, to the point where it's ridiculous to use the same term for both.

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There have been roughly three phases of American imperialism:

The conquest of a broad swath of North America, "from sea to shining sea". Land was taken from natives and competing empires. This was the only real period of "traditional" imperialism.

The heavy-handed and problematic enforcement of the Monroe Doctrine, against communist expansion. Right idea, could have been handled a lot better. If you want to call this imperialism, I won't complain overmuch. Still not very imperialist, though compared to previous empires and America's own previous behavior.

The modern era of "cultural imperialism" and the Pax Americana. Which I don't consider to be imperialist at all. Certainly not in the context of NATO. Really, the Pax Americana (of which NATO is the centerpiece) is kind of an anti-Empire.
 
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In a non nuclear war European lives are and will always be spent in defense of Europe, with an especially heavy civilian toll the US will/would not have to field, including all the deaths of a destroyed infrastructure.
In fact, if I recall that was always one of the strengths of NATO, the US could wage war in Europe without being seriously hurt as long as things stayed conventional and thus provide materiel and manpower to nations that themselves had been ravaged by the war.

In a nuclear war it's irrelevant, no US soldiers would be able to move to Europe as everyone on the world will be dead within a day or so.

It's the "and manpower" part that I'm talking about. Every American soldier in Europe is one more soldier taking a bullet that would have found a European soldier instead. The US has 35k troops in Germany right now.
 
LOL is that the Urban Dictionary definition?

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There have been roughly three phases of American imperialism:

The conquest of a broad swath of North America, "from sea to shining sea". Land was taken from natives and competing empires. This was the only real period of "traditional" imperialism.

The heavy-handed and problematic enforcement of the Monroe Doctrine, against communist expansion. Right idea, could have been handled a lot better. If you want to call this imperialism, I won't complain overmuch. Still not very imperialist, though compared to previous empires and America's own previous behavior.

Some Puerto Ricans might disagree.

The modern era of "cultural imperialism" and the Pax Americana. Which I don't consider to be imperialist at all. Certainly not in the context of NATO. Really, the Pax Americana (of which NATO is the centerpiece) is kind of an anti-Empire.

Which one of these three stages does Hawaii belong to?
 
It's the "and manpower" part that I'm talking about. Every American soldier in Europe is one more soldier taking a bullet that would have found a European soldier instead. The US has 35k troops in Germany right now.

I don't know if they are still there, but a battalion of US troops* were in Estonia. And roughly a brigade in Poland. Its the front line units that are the biggest deal. Russia would have to directly attack US troops to take those countries.

*From the 506th PIR of all units (Band of Brothers' unit).
 
It's the "and manpower" part that I'm talking about. Every American soldier in Europe is one more soldier taking a bullet that would have found a European soldier instead. The US has 35k troops in Germany right now.

So you're saying "let the Europeans protect Europe!!!"?
 
thepresitge did say "outside of living memory". We had our little imperialist phase about 120 to 130 years ago.

...which phase he characterized as "not very imperialist". It is that characterization that I am questioning.
 
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You are wrong.

Without active USA assistance, Europe would be still be able to stop itself from being over run by the Russians. Obviously border countries, Finland, Estonia, Poland etc, depending on how the Russians attacked, would suffer terribly, but the Russians would not end up parading through Paris, Rome, London etc.

Even if the USA was actively involved and its troops fought, those border countries would still suffer.
 
Without active USA assistance, Europe would be still be able to stop itself from being over run by the Russians. Obviously border countries, Finland, Estonia, Poland etc, depending on how the Russians attacked, would suffer terribly, but the Russians would not end up parading through Paris, Rome, London etc.

Even if the USA was actively involved and its troops fought, those border countries would still suffer.

Yes they would. However, with a US backed NATO, Putin is far less likely to even launch an attack.
 
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Yes they would. However, with a US backed NATO, Putin is far less likely to even launch an attack.

Indeed, if only because if things went nuclear, the effect on Russia would be so much more severe.
 
Indeed, without the USA in NATO, Putin is much more likely to invade the Baltics and even Poland, which all used to be part of Mother Russia.

A strong NATO is a great deterrent to WW3, a weaker NATO brings nuclear war much closer.
 
It's the "and manpower" part that I'm talking about. Every American soldier in Europe is one more soldier taking a bullet that would have found a European soldier instead. The US has 35k troops in Germany right now.

The idea was that if US soldiers fought and yes, maybe died in Europe, then that would prevent a dictatorial regime from consolidating Europe and then forcing the same US soldiers to die on their own home soil once such a regime inevitably would assault the US.

However more and more of European nations and the US themselves are in the process of voting in the very regimes the NATO was supposed to guard against, so I guess the need won't be there soon.
 
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