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MinnesotaBrant

Philosopher
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
5,768
The ones on the right I have been talking to have be clambering for a default for decades. I am sure it’s going to happen and it’s not going to be a breach either. The GOP isn’t rudderless. They have been meeting with the right wing gurus that want default along with no taxes.

The only thing I am unsure of is if this crisis is man made by people in power like I feel inflation is or really just unavoidable. The reason I don’t believe the story on inflation is that inflation is world wide problem and I don’t see everyone worldwide as having the same problem unless it’s driven by fuel costs
 
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Meh. Biden should just call their bluff - threaten to use Section 4 of the 14th Amendment.

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/amendments/amendment-xiv
"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."
The debt ceiling limits the amount the Treasury may borrow, but it does not cancel the obligations that happen to come due when the limit is reached. Once the Executive branch has been authorized by Congress to spend money, Section 4 of the 14th Amendment effectively states there is no question the federal government must somehow find the money to pay in full the debts owing.

Sure, this would set a precedent, but there is only one party that regularly uses the threat of default as a political weapon... and it ain't the Democrats.
 
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Virgin 14th amendment vs Chad trillion dollar coin.

Mint the coin, deposit it into the treasury accounts, and keep paying the bills. Dare anyone to try to get a court order reversing it.
 
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Again the Republican answer to everything is "Why have a government at all?" so I'm not sure what is surprising or up for discussion here.
 
Again the Republican answer to everything is "Why have a government at all?" so I'm not sure what is surprising or up for discussion here.

There's probably at least some significant section of Republicans who understand it would be bad for their business interests to have the US government suspend operation for any serious length of time.

This kind of brinksmanship must make them uncomfortable knowing that the right wing base is legitimately insane and willing to blow everything up. Deals with the devil, why do they have to be so hard?
 
Guess the 14th amendment won’t stop default because it would get tied up in the courts

Not necessarily.

There is a provision called "original jurisdiction" that allows states and government branches to go directly to the Supreme Court for a near immediate hearing.

If the Supreme Court takes the case and makes a decision, that is final.

If the Supreme Court declines to hear the case, that is also final, and since it would be the House challenging the executive branch's action, that challenge would fail. Game over!
 
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law... snip blah blah, the SCOTUS has already argued that clauses in amendments don't actually matter.

The only, and I mean ONLY sort of logical weasily way out of that is to say, yeah the debts are valid, doesn't mean the executive has the power to pay them without the legislatures approval. But that means that statement within the amendment has absolutely no purpose.
 
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law... snip blah blah, the SCOTUS has already argued that clauses in amendments don't actually matter.

The only, and I mean ONLY sort of logical weasily way out of that is to say, yeah the debts are valid, doesn't mean the executive has the power to pay them without the legislatures approval. But that means that statement within the amendment has absolutely no purpose.

Who's going to stop the executive branch from ordering that payments. If a SCOTUS decision comes down affirming the validity of Section 4 of 14A, Biden issues an EO directing the Treasury to pay the debt. End of story! Kevin Spineless and his MAGA chuds will not be able to stop that happening because SCOTUS will have spoken, and theirs is the last word
 
Deleted, makes more sense over in the politics thread.
 
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Just print a lot more money. That should bring about some fast compromises.

Isn’t a trillion dollar coin kind of the same thing? Also not sure if they could print money fast enough to stop the default.

(Ignoring that the whole situation is absurd.)

You have to mint the coin. If the Fed prints money it doesn't have a way to get it to the treasury except by buying bonds. That would violate the debt limit.
 
(Ignoring that the whole situation is absurd.)

You have to mint the coin. If the Fed prints money it doesn't have a way to get it to the treasury except by buying bonds. That would violate the debt limit.

And the loophole exists because of a law from 1997 that states the mint may create a platinum coin in any denomination they choose. The purpose of the law was to make money, coin collectors are sometimes willing to pay more for coins than the value of the metal in them... however it doesn't actually say "you may only mint coins that you can sell at a profit" or any such language.

Now, constitutionally speaking, only Congress is supposed to be able to authorize spending... but they clearly did so with that law, even if it was accidental. And, Congress can of course write a new law that rescinds the mints authorization to create a "trillion dollar coin". Its tough titties that they'd never get a 2 thirds majority in both houses to override the president, who would obviously veto such a bill.

Of course all that above is just my opinion, and the opinion of a nobel winning economist, and the opinion of the former secretary of the US Mint. But what matters is, is it the opinion of 5+ SCOTUS justices :rolleyes:
 
They don't need to raise taxes, just cut out these areas and problem solved.


Projected Revenue Losses |Provision For Years 2022-2031
$3,000 |Exclusion of employer contributions for medical insurance and medical care
$1,700 |Exclusion of net imputed rental income
$1,400 |Lower tax rates on capital gains
$1,400 |Tax benefits of defined contribution employer plans
$890 |Deductions for charitable contributions (excl. education and health)
$808 |Tax benefits of defined benefit employer plans
$798 |Deductions for mortgage interest on owner-occupied homes
$761 |Deductions for nonbusiness state and local taxes
$576 |Step-up basis of capital gains at death
$542 |Capital gains exclusion on home sales
$446 |Child credit
$437 |Tax benefits of self-employed plans
$421 |Treatment of qualified dividends
$384 |Deductions for state and local property tax on owner-occupied homes
$367 |Reduced tax rate on active income of controlled foreign corporations
$357 |Exclusion of untaxed Social Security benefits
$345 |Exclusion of interest on public purpose state and local bonds
$288 |Tax benefits of individual retirement accounts
$272 |Credit for increasing research activities
$261 |20% deduction to certain pass-through income
$180 |Deductions for medical expenses
$160 |Exclusion of life insurance death benefits
$157 |Exclusion of benefits and allowances to armed forces personnel
$153 |Deductions for charitable contributions (health)
$141 |Exclusion of veterans' death benefits and disability compensation
|
$16,244 | Total Over Ten Years
$1,624 | One Year Total Cost

Found Here.
 
Isn’t a trillion dollar coin kind of the same thing? Also not sure if they could print money fast enough to stop the default.

The coin wound never be circulated, while printing money would increase the base (high powered) money in circulation and create a crapload of inflation.
 
The coin wound never be circulated, while printing money would increase the base (high powered) money in circulation and create a crapload of inflation.

I don't think this is right. The Fed would credit the Treasury for the value of the coin. The Treasury would then spend the money, increasing M1.
 
I don't think this is right. The Fed would credit the Treasury for the value of the coin. The Treasury would then spend the money, increasing M1.

My thinking is that the coin would reduce the net federal government debt and put it back below the debt ceiling and therefor allow the government to operate normally. I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think it needs to spend that money directly, nor increase the base money in circulation to make this happen.
 
My thinking is that the coin would reduce the net federal government debt and put it back below the debt ceiling and therefor allow the government to operate normally. I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think it needs to spend that money directly, nor increase the base money in circulation to make this happen.

Oh sorry. That's certainly right. What I meant was that in the case of hitting the debt ceiling the government will likely have to cut spending and/or repayment. As compared to that a coin will increase the money supply.
 
Oh sorry. That's certainly right. What I meant was that in the case of hitting the debt ceiling the government will likely have to cut spending and/or repayment. As compared to that a coin will increase the money supply.

The government has already spent the money and the money supply has already increased, so we're talking less about cutting spending and more about defaulting on debts owed.
 
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Does Congress Have Power To Override The President's Duty?
Constitutional law professor Lawrence Tribe explains why he changed his thinking on the debt ceiling.

"What I changed my mind about is, what is the right question to ask," Tribe said. ...

"But the real question isn't what powers the president have. It is, what duties the president has. Does the president have a duty to execute all of the laws of the United States, the ones that Congress passed, telling him to spend money? He does have that duty.

"The question then becomes, does Congress have the power to override that duty by confronting the president with an impossible choice by telling the president, look, we have told you to spend this money, you've taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, to enforce all the laws. But we won't let you do it.
 
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Just heard one of the negotiators say they won’t budge on work requirements for people on welfare. I put risk of default at 100% the only thing that I am confused about is whether or not this is a fix or not. I wonder if there is Russian influence or the like going on
 
I was wrong about the inevitability of default. I guess that the republicans are not quite there yet.
 
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