Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
The previous two posts have measurably lowered the IQ of the forum.
-
Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
Declining IQ of college grads
- Thread starter AlaskaBushPilot
- Start date
What on earth is a "high school degree"?
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
It's the thermostat reading when the school's air conditioning is on the fritz.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Americans seem to 'graduate' a lot.
Junior High School, Senior High School.
Perhaps they even 'graduate' from primary school?
Is there a primary school degree?
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I have been known to complain about a school policy that should be called:
"No child shall be allowed to get ahead."
It was my experience of primary school and high school, that they did their utmost to try and prevent me from getting an education. (They even went so far as to confiscate my books at school).
Fortunately that went away when I started my first degree.
"No child shall be allowed to get ahead."
It was my experience of primary school and high school, that they did their utmost to try and prevent me from getting an education. (They even went so far as to confiscate my books at school).
Fortunately that went away when I started my first degree.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
American here. No, no graduations from junior high (very casual term) and we don't even use the term "senior high". We do have a kinda sorta graduation from primary school, because many districts give you a choice of high schools to attend, some of which are not in your district and in the same system, so you formally are leaving one curriculum and entering another. So we have maybe one more "graduation" than just high school, but it's pretty low key and informal, mostly a pomp ad circumstance feel-good thing for mom.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
I "graduated" from 8th grade but it was a Catholic school so the nuns made us feel bad about it.
That change definitely happened, but the transition happened IIRC* in the 40's and 50's, and while college admissions were increasing then, they were still no where near modern day levels.
I don't remember if we have actual research on this, but I think there's reason to believe that IQs of college grads went up during that early period when it was still a small elite who were attending college, but it had shifted away from the children of the upper class and toward the high achievers looking to climb the social/economic ladder. Of course it was (and remains) a mix of both.
Perhaps also worth noting is the the elite institutions today remain extremely selective, perhaps more so than in the past.
*I'd have to double check, it may have been slightly earlier.
Do you really not know what he means?
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
We ask questions like that, because terms don't necessarily map from USA to Australia.
For example, we have terms like:
Leaving certificate;
Year 12 certificate;
Matriculation certificate/High School Certificate/ATAR.
Notice the lack of the word 'degree' ?
A High School degree would be some kind of academic qualification for teachers, something like a Bachelor of Education (Secondary) or a Master of Education (Secondary) for someone with other tertiary qualifications.
You're welcome,
Well, I'm pretty sure that Darat wasn't actually confused enough to think that ABP was talking about academic qualifications for teachers. Personally I see language as a means of communicating ideas, and as long as I understand what someone means, it has done its job.
If you or Darat actually were confused, I apologize, but his posts seemed clear enough to me. Making a nitpick correction is completely fine, I just don't believe that Darat didn't actually understand. As I said, he can correct me if I'm wrong.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Americans have never in history referred to a high school degree. You get a diploma. ABP's post is the only known usage in American history, save a few functional illiterates here and there.
Typical USA is grade schools give a cert of completion, HS gets a diploma.
If you get a HS equivalence later after after dropping out of school, tech schools offer a GED program to show you have passed the typical HS program.
Colleges give degrees.
If you get a HS equivalence later after after dropping out of school, tech schools offer a GED program to show you have passed the typical HS program.
Colleges give degrees.
Yep. My point isn't that he's correct, it's that he's understandable.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Agreed, if he was maybe an ESL guy. But I'm pretty sure he isn't, and is quite deliberately screwing up the terminology. So if see Darat's question as inviting clarification, more than actual confusion.
I agree that if he's doing it on purpose then the confrontational tone is probably justified, and remove my objection. I read it as just an honest mistake, but your reading makes sense too.
Carlotta
Graduate Poster
Belated nitpick: in the original story, Fauntleroy is a fairly streetwise kid who lives in New York with his "Dearest" widowed mother. The privilege comes about later on.
I was confused and sought clarification, thanks to watching way too many USA trials I know that you have to meet a certain level of achievement to "graduate" high school, given the topic of this thread it had me wondering if some folk are saying High schools now offer degree courses!
In that case I apologize. It seemed obvious to me in context that he had just messed up, and I misread your reply. Sorry about that.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Some of our funny accent posters
seem to think 'graduate' is a strange way to describe completing high school? I mean, it's not much different to my ear than a certification that you completed the curriculum. Maybe American ears are a little deadened to how it sounds pretentious or something along those lines? Sounds pretty pedestrian to me.One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!
Some of our funny accent posters
One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!
In the UK we have started to have "graduation" ceremonies in secondary education schools (alongside proms, it shows how powerful USA cultural exports can be) but everyone in the UK "graduates" high school and we don't have anything like your "college credits" system for entering university.
Some of our funny accent posters
One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!
I guess the thing is, how can you graduate before you become an undergraduate?
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
A formal dance for school kids is our thing? I thought we got that from you guys?
I think that's because you are more standardized in your educational system? Over here, a high school graduate might have math courses anywhere from the simple algebra level to Calculus 2. Myself and two of my kids had Calc 2 in high school. When I started night school (many years ago), I had to retake calc 1&2 because the college didnt acknowledge high school courses, wanting to make sure you learned it to collegiate standards. Of course, it was the same damned thing and I just paid to retake what I had already done. Nowadays, the schools are simply acknowledging that the AP student has already met the collegiate requirements to save the kid some time and money.
"Undergrad" is strictly a shorthand and informal relative term, when referring to the school you went to for your Bachelor's (4 year college) degree, to differentiate where you went for Masters or beyond. No one says "undergrad" unless clarifying that it was a different school than their yet higher educational institution.
You guys seem to object to our use of graduation as of there is some sense of finality to it? I see it more like graduated marks on a beaker. Complete one level, and you might stop there, or go on to the next level, and graduate that.
All wildly off topic, of course, but we seem to have at least three posters who think Americans use "graduate" oddly and I can't quite see why.
Last edited:
Er, no. "Undergraduate" is a specific term for someone studying for their first degree, usually a Bachelor's degree (in the UK, usually a three year course, can be done in two, four years if including a year in industry, some subjects, e.g. medicine, can be longer). Therefore, referring to someone in education 'graduating' generally refers to attaining their first degree.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Undergrads may be a specific term, but a fairly pointless one. Of course the students would be "undergrads". If they had graduated, they wouldn't be in the goddamned school anymore. But they are almost universally referred to as students, unless making the distinction between a Bachelor's at one school versus higher studies at another ("I did my undergrad at BC, and Doctorate at Carnegie.")
Do your institutions call themselves "Undergrad Unis"? Is that emblazoned on their logos? Are the hundreds of posters here who refer to being "a student at uni" in need of correction, too?
They will still be in school if they are doing postgraduate study (which you call graduate study). You can do an undergraduate degree and a postgraduate degree at the same university, hence the need to distinguish undergraduate students from postgraduate students
For (state) secondary education schools that's 100% down to USA cultural influence, seems to have started sometime over the last 20 years.
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, obviously, and that's actually what I keep saying. "Undergrad" is only meaningful when comparing with post grads.
Do you think you can show a single 4 year college/uni that calls itself an "Undergrad" school? A pic of their signage or t-shirt would do nicely.
Well, it also compares with people who haven't started or never took a degree level course.I'm not sure why I would want to do that.
To return to the point, which was initially Darat's confusion at someone referring to a 'high school degree', which you agreed was not a term in use. You then said you thought 'graduate' was an appropriate term to use for someone finishing high school; I simply pointed out that, at least in the UK, and possibly now historically, 'graduate' mostly applies to attaining a first degree. It does seem that the term is creeping down the academic scale, I've been invited to attend a graduation ceremony for my HND, which is basically 2/3 of a Bachelor's degree, and I wouldn't be surprised to find UK schools using it, too.
ETA: There's also some further confusion, in that I've not been completely clear in the above when I'm using 'graduate' as a noun or verb, and I don't have time to clarify now!
Last edited:
Carrot Flower King
Philosopher
This is definitely veering into the "English: US/UK/Australian" territory...
Carrot Flower King
Philosopher
Between September 1976 and early June 1979 I was an undergraduate at Sheffield, while I studied for and passed exams in my degree subject (s); for a few weeks after results came out until the actual degree ceremony, which I didn't attend, I was a graduand; after the awards I became a graduate, as I had graduated, even though I was awarded "in absentia".
Several of my friends and acquaintances went on to be post-graduates at Sheffield and other universities, studying and researching for master's and doctorates or PGCEs (post-graduate certificate in education, i.e. qualifying as teachers by that particular route).
I later obtained a post-graduate diploma from Durham by doing a post-graduate course, during which time I could have been described as a post-graduate student, the only time this has been applicable to me.
That is how the UK system works. Well, worked when I was involved...
ETA 'Cos I'm old and old skool, my nursing qualification is not degree-level, but was obtained by the old "apprenticeship" model as was the case at the time and after I had the above-mentioned degree. This is the topic or topics for a whole other set of arguments...
Several of my friends and acquaintances went on to be post-graduates at Sheffield and other universities, studying and researching for master's and doctorates or PGCEs (post-graduate certificate in education, i.e. qualifying as teachers by that particular route).
I later obtained a post-graduate diploma from Durham by doing a post-graduate course, during which time I could have been described as a post-graduate student, the only time this has been applicable to me.
That is how the UK system works. Well, worked when I was involved...
ETA 'Cos I'm old and old skool, my nursing qualification is not degree-level, but was obtained by the old "apprenticeship" model as was the case at the time and after I had the above-mentioned degree. This is the topic or topics for a whole other set of arguments...
Last edited:
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
...you would call them undergrads?
You probably wouldn't. The point was that I'm saying "undergrad" is not a common term outside of comparing with graduate studies. Others want to act like it is more the norm. It isn't. 'Cause it doesn't get used elsewhere, where it would be expected if it was more common.
I think you missed some stuff. Novaphile actually started this derail saying Americans seem to "graduate" a lot (in scare quotes). Darat also used "graduate" in scare quotes, also as if questioning its meaning. Having heard that before, I took the opportunity to ask about the distinction you are making, which maybe belongs in the Various English thread.
I suppose Darat said it most clearly: UK students graduate from secondary school, but are not thought of as graduates. A graduate, in the UK, means someone who has attained a college degree. So the term "high school graduate", meaning someone who has graduated high school, is not a graduate to you guys. Ok. Just curious why such a teensy usage difference needed mild scorn..
Pah - a HND is as good as a degree from any nansy-pansy university. But thinking back to my days getting an HND (when I was at college doing my A levels - it was so I could work part time at the college as a lab technician - so about 40 years ago) the only graduation ceremony was getting pissed at the pub across from the Tech, but that was a weekly "passing out" ceremony.
Only if they're studying for a first degree.
(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate.
)Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Only if they're studying for a first degree.
(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate.
An undergrad graduate? Maybe pick up a minor in philosophy?
Carrot Flower King
Philosopher
Only if they're studying for a first degree.
(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate.
Still an undergrad, as the entry requirements for the BA will not be solely an existing bachelor's degree, but will include A-levels and the rest.
If we go any further into this we'll be into double secret suspension land and ranting about the Germans attacking Pearl Harbour after getting stoned with Donald Sutherland...Or something...
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Although I'd agree that having not met the graduation requirements for the BA, he would be an undergrad student, we don't apply "undergrad" to someone working on their Doctoral thesis, do we?
Who's going to suspended two admins? Shemp?
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
Returning to the actual OP topic: others are as skeptical.of 102 being the mean IQ (the method cited by the meta-analysis researchers) as I am. If it's an actual mean, and we know damn right well there are 140+ IQs running around in everything north of a community College, they got a problem explaining the corresponding amount of cognitively disabled people graduating college to average that low.
One posed problem was that they used the modern WAIS to compare with the 1939 scoring. The WAIS, of course, did not exist at the time, so a comparative scoring is not realistic.
https://greyenlightenment.com/2024/01/08/on-average-undergraduate-students-intelligence-is-merely-average-analysis/
Eta: only far to point out that the author and indeed the site are a bit questionable on several grounds, but the points made are still valid
Eta le deux: trying to find the original study (which was easy enough), the problem I'm having is finding if it was peer reviewed. Seems everything links back ultimately to a preprint released on xitter. Will try later when off phone
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/378173544_Meta-analysis_On_average_undergraduate_students'_intelligence_is_merely_average
Tertiary eta: the preprint claims to have been peer reviewed by Frontiers in Psychology, but the link goes 404.
One posed problem was that they used the modern WAIS to compare with the 1939 scoring. The WAIS, of course, did not exist at the time, so a comparative scoring is not realistic.
https://greyenlightenment.com/2024/01/08/on-average-undergraduate-students-intelligence-is-merely-average-analysis/
Eta: only far to point out that the author and indeed the site are a bit questionable on several grounds, but the points made are still valid
Eta le deux: trying to find the original study (which was easy enough), the problem I'm having is finding if it was peer reviewed. Seems everything links back ultimately to a preprint released on xitter. Will try later when off phone
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/378173544_Meta-analysis_On_average_undergraduate_students'_intelligence_is_merely_average
Tertiary eta: the preprint claims to have been peer reviewed by Frontiers in Psychology, but the link goes 404.
Last edited:
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I did that as part of my first degree, two majors and a minor.
Only just scraped up enough points for the minor in philosophy.