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Continuation Part II - Cold Fusion Claims

That is wrong, pteridine.
We take great delight in pointing out that a crank like Rossi exists because the basics of the scientific (and rational!) world have not been met by his "experiments". No valid proof that he is anything but a fraudster fooling people into giving him money and time has been presented.

It is insanely ignorant to think that an actual nuclear reaction happened in his apparatus as you already know from the posts in this thread, pteridine.

A rant about "high priests of physics" does not help your or Rossi's case.

Of course you are all knowing and, not being too insanely ignorant, can reassure the world that there can be no nuclear reaction of any sort occurring in Rossi's apparatus even though your slightly insane partially ignorant part may have doubts. I recommend that you weasel a bit just in case Rossi has done what he says he has. If you are wrong, it will spoil your perfect record.

As to the high priests comment, that was as a result of a few derisive comments regarding Norman Cook because he was not a pedigreed physicist. Those making the comments apparently did not read the book.

As had been said on many occasions, only Monarchs, Editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we.'
 
I understand that this is uncomfortable for those that think they have nuclear reactions completely covered and do not like upstarts like Rossi and Norman Cook treading on hallowed ground that is only accessible to the high priests of physics. Norman's book does make sense and seems to explain nuclear structure better than the liquid drop model. It is well referenced and is a nice read. The second edition is more pertinent to Rossi but either will explain his concept of nuclear structure.

It's very easy to write a "well-referenced, nice read" which is 100% and irredeemably wrong. If that is what Cook has done, I don't know why he should get credit for it? What an odd metric. I hear that "Of Pandas And People" is a well-referenced, nice read too. I have dozens of books on my office shelf that contradict Cook and they are also "well-referenced, nice reads".

Anyway, no, Cook's work does not "seem to explain nuclear structure" better than any model whatsoever, certainly not the (ultra-approximate) liquid drop model. I've seen his book and it does not have any predictive power whatsoever. Here is what he appears to be doing: If a real-world nuclear physicist tells him what is known about a real-world nuclear state, he can wave his hands and draw a picture and claim that he's "explained" that state. Here is what he is not doing: taking his theory and using seeing what it says nuclei must do, then checking the data to see if that's right. Even in the domain Cook seems to care about, i.e. nuclear state counting, this approach is so useless it may as well be numerology. Outside of that domain, the theory is just flat-out false. Most obviously, high-energy electron-nucleus scattering data DOES NOT show the wacky diffraction pattern that Cook's lattice theory obviously predicts.
 
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Of course you are all knowing ...
A meaningless rant does not prevent actual nuclear physics from existing, pteridine :jaw-dropp!
My area of expertise is solid state physics but when a working nuclear physicists (ben m) points out that Rossi is deluded abut Ni turning into Cu, I believe him. I also checked the facts to confirm that Rossi is deluded about this.

For example: 12th April 2015 ben m explains (again I think) how ignorant Rossi is about nuclear physics and that he seems to depend on Norman Cook's crank book.

This was in response to you posting a link to the preprint On the Nuclear Mechanisms Underlying the Heat Production by the E-Cat by Norman D. Cook, Andrea Rossi - still unpublished and not cited after 8 months!
Norman D. Cook (Department of Informatics, Kansai University, Osaka, 1095-569, Japan) - a informatics expert with "Quantum Nucleodynamics" idiocy that cartoon models are real.
 
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Most obviously, high-energy electron-nucleus scattering data DOES NOT show the wacky diffraction pattern that Cook's lattice theory obviously predicts.



I think this is a key point a lot of "alternate science" believers don't quite get. It's that science doesn't exist in a vacuum.

If our current understanding of nuclear physics was so wrong that these other theories could be correct, then there'd be lots of examples of phenomenon that are completely different from the predictions made by the theories. Not just, "Maybe we're off by a fraction of a percent in some outlying cases" type wrong, but clearly, obvious to anyone who looks, type wrong.

In fact, we have several examples of just that in the history of science, and those theories lost out to the new ones. The geocentric model of the solar system simply could not explain the differences in phases of planets closer to the Sun than Earth, as opposed to the appearances of planets farther away. Once we had the tools to see the planets clearly, it was obvious that we were wrong. It took a bit of time to come up with something better, because we are only human, but we did it.

So, if current nuclear physics is that wrong, where are the obviously wrong predictions? We have many such obviously wrong predictions for the alternative theories (see above, and pretty much any other thread we've had on such topics), so where are the equivalents for current nuclear physics?
 
The geocentric model of the solar system simply could not explain the differences in phases of planets closer to the Sun than Earth, as opposed to the appearances of planets farther away. Once we had the tools to see the planets clearly, it was obvious that we were wrong. It took a bit of time to come up with something better, because we are only human, but we did it.
A slight objection here. Copernicus published in 1536, and the "tools" became available in 1609.
 
So, if current nuclear physics is that wrong, where are the obviously wrong predictions? We have many such obviously wrong predictions for the alternative theories (see above, and pretty much any other thread we've had on such topics), so where are the equivalents for current nuclear physics?

Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.
 
Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?"
You really do not know that according to current nuclear physics, cold fusion and LENR are physically impossible, pteridine :jaw-dropp!
The point is that if nuclear physics were so wrong that cold fusion or LENR were possible then it would make obviously wrong predictions. For example why does hot fusion work as predicted?

Rossi's fantasies about physics do not explain anything, even his possibly faked results.
 
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Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.



Because it would be! Haven't you been paying any attention? Not only does it not predict these reactions, but it does predict things that we don't see, like massive outputs of deadly radiation, if there are nuclear reactions happening.

And it's not just nuclear physics that would be wrong. We've got a pretty good understanding of electrostatics, that predicts that nuclei simply can't get close enough together to fuse without being really hot. Even with the notion of the electron shells being shielded in the metal matrices used, the math just doesn't work out. If LENR is right, our understanding of electrostatics is wrong. And it just goes on. As I said, these theories don't exist in a vacuum; they interact, changing one has implications for all of them, large and small. This is why paradigm-changing new theories are actually quite rare.
 
Because it would be! Haven't you been paying any attention? Not only does it not predict these reactions, but it does predict things that we don't see, like massive outputs of deadly radiation, if there are nuclear reactions happening.

I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?
 
I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?

All of the experiments which carried out Ni-H fusion, Li-H fusion, and all of the reactions that Rossi has at various times invoked. Experiments studying the excited states of Cu isotopes. We know how much energy is present in a Ni-H fusion, we know the complete list of possible particles that can take up that energy (in addition to the daughter Cu nucleus), and everything on that list precisely "massive outputs of deadly radiation". (Ni and H will fuse just fine if you shoot them at each other in an accelerator. Journ.: Voprosy Atomnoy Nauki i Tekhniki, Seriya Obshch. Vol.2/16, p.37 is the first reference in Exfors, the standard nuclear-reaction experiment database, for 60Ni(p,gamma) reaction measurements specifically showing the gamma emissions.)

You were just telling us that:

Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong.

Yes he does---or, more precisely, he doesn't care. If he can profit from people thinking he's proven physics wrong, he'll tell them that. If he can profit from people thinking LENR is standard physics, he'll tell them that. Or both! Or neither!

But, no, "nuclear fusion occurs, but it converts 5 MeV of strong binding energy into low-frequency nonpenetrating mystery energy that nobody can detect except as heat" is the same thing as saying "physics is wrong".
 
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I think this is a key point a lot of "alternate science" believers don't quite get. It's that science doesn't exist in a vacuum. <brevity snip>
Exactly. This is something the woo peddlers simply can't grasp, because they understand so little of real science; if there was sufficient "leeway" in physics to allow the convicted fraudster Rossi's claims to be true, then there would be vast numbers of other detectable effects.

Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.
His claimed results violate physics as it has been demonstrated to operate.
But then he's lying to fleece the gullible. Again.
 
(much snipped)

I am aware that many on this board take great delight in attacking Rossi because their demands for detailed proof have not been satisfied.

Yes. This is a skeptics forum. It's kinda what we do.
 
I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?


Right, it's clear now that you're not paying attention. Read ben m's post above, he reiterates things that have been said before in these threads, which you either skimmed over, or have chosen to forget.

And yet, you believe it is everyone else in the thread who are "uncomfortable" with dealing with claims we don't agree with.
 
We know how much energy is present in a Ni-H fusion, we know the complete list of possible particles that can take up that energy (in addition to the daughter Cu nucleus), and everything on that list precisely "massive outputs of deadly radiation".



"Have you heard about the problem with Pons' and Fleischmann's grad student?"

"No, what's wrong?"

"He's in perfect health"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
What experiment actually shows Rossi producing extra power?

There are "experiment" which shows extra power. Note the scary quote. There is no "properly controlled independent experiment" showing power though. Rossi is always there preparing the setup. If I was to do persiflage I would say that the wire are not only controlling temperature but some of them are "juicy" ;).
 
Oh, right, the "wires" being plugged in to "control temperature", that's some nice physical-law-violation too. Rossi is very happy to emphasize "temperature control" in the context of explaining why his device can't be unplugged ... but his interest in temperature control completely vanishes when it's time to try to explain the "reactions", or study them, or when he builds different versions of his device designed for wildly different temperatures, etc.

Here's why Rossi's control claim violates the laws of physics. Imagine there were some reaction which generated power. How much power does it generate? Let's say P(T). (It is very generally the case that P(T) increases monotonically with temperature, but we don't need to assume that. There are weird exceptions, like pebble bed reactors. Rossi's claims violate the laws of physics no matter what P(T) looks like.)

OK, so you put your P(T) source into a canister which also, when it heats up, has some natural cooling power C(T)---it might be conductive (so C(T) = -a(T-T0)) or convective (so C(T) = -a(T-T0)^2 or thereabouts) or radiative (C(T) = -a(T^4- T0^4)). Notice these are all perfectly monotonic.

So, if we specify a temperature, we can compute the total power. If the P(T) + C(T) > 0, that means the reaction power exceeds the cooling power, and starting from this temperature the device will heat up. If P(T) + C(T) < 0, the reaction power is less than the cooling power, and starting from this temperature the device will cool down. "Maintaining temperature" happens only at zero crossings, where input and output power are matched. But notice that *if* P(T) + C(T) has a positive slope, the process is unstable---you heat up a little, that takes you to a temperature where you're heating up even faster, etc. (Or you cool a little, that takes you to a temperature where you cool faster.) If the P(T) + C(T) curve has a negative slope at the zero crossing, then the reaction is stable. Go ahead, invent a curve for P(T) + C(T).

Rossi's "stabilization" claim is that he's adding additional power R(T), in some way that varies with temperature, that turns the unstable reaction into a stable one. But we're restricted in how we can do that. R(T) is by definition positive---you can only add power, not subtract it, with a resistor plugged into a cable. You can only stabilize a system via additive power, then, if P(T) + C(T) start off negative. You can then add a steeply-falling (R(T)) and bring the low-temperature end of the curve up past zero at some setpoint TH of your choice. There you go, you've added a zero-crossing and stabilized the system.

But that is 100% inconsistent with what Rossi says his system is doing. He says that the resistors bring the reactor into a self-heating mode with P(T)+C(T) > 0. Sorry, Rossi, if your physical system enters a self-heating mode (P(T)+C(T) > 0) then it is completely impossible to "stabilize" the system by adding more heat R(T), no matter what the control circuit is doing.

Maybe at higher temperatures P(T) drops with temperature, or rises more slowly than C(T) does. That can bring in a negative-slope zero-crossing and the system can self-stabilize. If that's what it does, then Rossi is lying about needing a control circuit. If P(T) and C(T) combine to give you a negative slope, there's no need for R(T) to be plugged in---the only thing it can possibly do is push the setpoint a little higher.

I invite the reader---even pteridine---to try to invent any curve whatsoever for the nuclear-physics-reaction-rate P(T), and show that it corresponds to Rossi's claims:
  • P(T) > C(T) for some range of temperatures (i.e., Rossi's claim that the reactor "heats itself")
  • P(T) - C(T) does not have a zero crossing at a safe temperature (i.e., Rossi's claim that the reactor "would melt down" if the input were unplugged) and
  • We can add some control signal R(T) such that P(T)-C(T)+R(T) has a zero crossing (i.e. Rossi's claim that the input provides "stability")

As usual, either Rossi is lying about at least some experimental results, or his process violates laws of physics far more disturbing than "he discovered a new nuclear reaction."
 
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I peeked at the E-cat World website and they are now hawking a permanent cell phone power source, a PowerCube, which never needs recharging (offered by "Stoern's Orbo"). http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2015/10/new_video_reveals_internals_of_orbo_powe.html

Soon to be released of course (at multiple thousands of euros per cell phone, and they are taking advance orders now), and it will change civilization. In reading the explanation of how it works, just like the cold fusion devices, I find it interesting that so much of what they say goes against the physics I learned in college and since then. But the buzz words are there that would make it sound all very scientific if one did not have any science background. So either I must assume that it is all so very advanced that the contradictions I see would not appear to be contradictions if I was a more highly educated physicists (or perhaps so highly advanced that even highly educated physicists would not get it), or that it is just word salad to convince unsophisticated investors.

I generally distrust statements about facts where the more you know about facts the more the statement looks like bs, but perhaps if I knew more I would be writing them a check.
 
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Pretty amazing that you can claim in one breath, essentially, "we've overturned the laws of physics and discovered an inexhaustible energy source", which you'd think would be a big deal in a world where conventional energy sources are destroying the climate, and in the next breath

When asked whether Orbo could be scaled up to power cars, Shaun says, "Not by us. We would make no money powering cars. It's not a lucrative market." He asserts that Ford makes less money from each car sold than Apple makes from each iPhone sold. "It's not on our radar, because money is what we're attempting to do right now."

Oh, good.
 
The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.
 
The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

Which is more likely the laws of physics are wrong or he's a con man*.

*proven.
 
Which is more likely the laws of physics are wrong or he's a con man*.

*proven.
Which is more likely? That the laws of physics are wrong or that Rossi, having been convicted as a conman at least once before, should have returned yet again to his old scams.
 
The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

I may be misunderstanding your point. If you are simply indicating that somehow fusion of multiple nuclei at once might release energies though other than gamma, wouldn't the typical H-bomb argue against this? Further, this is a nuclear transition and if not releasing energies through emission of a gamma photon or other radiation, I think it would have to represent a very different physics that the one currently accepted.
 
The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

If we're in the business of just making stuff up, why bother talking about nuclei? Maybe Rossi's reactor teleports nuclei silently to the Phantom Zone, where they're fused in Superman's super-grip, and he then sends his super-eye-beams through a dimensional porthole to return the energy to us. Any inconsistencies in the experiments results from Superman being busy and careless sometimes.

If we're NOT making stuff up: no, there is no mechanism for getting nuclear energy into other forms. Nuclei are quantum systems, they have excited states, and the nature of those excited states is inseparable from statements like "63Cu has a lower energy than 62Ni and a proton". Nothing in the known world, nothing in Rossi's or Cook's imagination, nothing in yours.
 
If we're in the business of just making stuff up, why bother talking about nuclei? Maybe Rossi's reactor teleports nuclei silently to the Phantom Zone, where they're fused in Superman's super-grip, and he then sends his super-eye-beams through a dimensional porthole to return the energy to us. Any inconsistencies in the experiments results from Superman being busy and careless sometimes.

If we're NOT making stuff up: no, there is no mechanism for getting nuclear energy into other forms. Nuclei are quantum systems, they have excited states, and the nature of those excited states is inseparable from statements like "63Cu has a lower energy than 62Ni and a proton". Nothing in the known world, nothing in Rossi's or Cook's imagination, nothing in yours.

At least Black Light Power made up new states ;). "hydrogen has a lower state than the ground state in which it falls into that's hydrinos" (paraphrased). Rossi just pretend he is fusing stuff which should not fuse and that without emission of any particle whatsoever.
 
I have a question, back in 2012 Rossi stated :
“Yes, Leonardo Corp is very much powerful now. I can already say that the first 1 MW hot cat will go in operation within February 2013. It will not be a military application, therefore selected persons will be allowed to visit it. It will be installed in a big power production and distribution plant...
Where is this power plant? Who has visited it? This would be very impressive if they could show several years continuous running on this power plant.
Why has Rossi made up so many stories over the years?

Back in 2011 pteridine gave us this :
pteridine said:
Andrea Rossi is an inventor and engineer. He does not know why the reaction works-- he only knows that excess heat is released. Being a practical experimenter, when he had built a working model he used it to heat three rooms in his facility when he owned EON, SRL where he made biodiesel powered gen sets.
The unit ran for an entire heating season on a single charge and this ruled out chemical reactions. At this point the physics is speculative but many are theorizing about possibilities. The many experiments pointing toward the reality of LENR are slowly converging and I expect that over the next few years, key aspects of the process will be understood and this will become an impoprtant energy source.
Well, it's 5 years later and so far all we have are patents with no details on the supposed "process". And more stories of course.
Is Rossi's facility still being run by this heater pteridine?
 
The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.

EON srl has been sold and the small prototype unit has been removed. Rossi's company modified MAN diesel generator sets [750kw to run on biofuels.]

Rossi was cleared of wrongdoing or he would not have been able to get a green card.

The delay in commercialization is the result of 'due diligence' by the investors. I have been associated with lesser technical developments and things always take longer than expected. Run-of-the-mill tweaks and minor incremental improvements go relatively quickly but major technology improvements have more roadblocks and delays. This would be a world-changing discovery.
Many companies are now preparing for the possibility that the device works and are taking out insurance patents. There are also some extortion patents being filed by others.
 
The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.
Evidence? For whom is it working? Where? Who has seen it operating?

Does "producing steam" mean that it is in normal use, or is this a sample Rossi keeps for his shows?
 
Human psychology is fascinating. If someone came up to the average person and said "I have ten dollars in my pocket. Give me 5 and I will give you the ten" the average person would be very suspicious and would want to see the actual money and arrange some sort of simultaneous swap before agreeing to the deal. And ten dollar bills certainly exist, so it is physically quite possible.

Yet if you propose a fancy device that violates huge chunks of known science, where all the red flags of scams are displayed (repeated promises to achieve goals that are never achieved over multiple years, explanations that use only buzz words that scientists see as meaningless word salad, the "we have made wonderful progress and the payoff is just months away," etc.), and inventors who not for 5 dollars, but for thousands or millions of dollars, then many people are lining up to invest.

It is the concept of the "Big Lie;" people are often more willing to believe a big lie than a small one.
 
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Evidence? For whom is it working? Where? Who has seen it operating?

Does "producing steam" mean that it is in normal use, or is this a sample Rossi keeps for his shows?

It is producing steam continuously. I have seen it working.
 
It is producing steam continuously. I have seen it working.
That doesn't answer any of my questions. Please read them again, and if you can't answer because of confidentiality issues, please say so. You know the kind of things we need to know. What does "producing steam continuously" mean? Is it heating or powering some industrial or commercial operation, in normal use? Where is it? Who owns it?

But you can envisage the data one needs to verify your statemements.
 
I am still puzzled about the "laws of physics" comments. You have not seen 'Dark matter' but there it is, repelling regular matter in an explanation of an observed phenomenon. What laws might that be violating? Quantum entanglement experiments say that something strange is happening. Where are the laws of physics when you need them to untangle things?
Rossi is not saying anything so radical, only that under the conditions of his experiment, heat is produced that is not chemical. Certainly, if the phenomenon is proved to be real, it will keep everyone busy trying to figure out what is going on. I expect that another mechanism for energy release will be found under the conditions of the experiment.

If I have two atoms of a radioactive element, which one will disintegrate first?
 
That doesn't answer any of my questions. Please read them again, and if you can't answer because of confidentiality issues, please say so. You know the kind of things we need to know. What does "producing steam continuously" mean? Is it heating or powering some industrial or commercial operation, in normal use? Where is it? Who owns it?

But you can envisage the data one needs to verify your statemements.

My NDA precludes me from providing all the details you ask for. The steam is used as steam in an over-the-fence operation in the United States. The purchaser of the steam uses it in their plant vice using a steam generator as they have no process heat. The temperature is about 110*C. The unit, as configured, is roughly 4 m^3 in volume, including all of the generation and condensate return lines, valving, etc. but not including the computer control system.
More information has been publically exposed of late , e.g., LiAlH4 works as well or better than gaseous H2. Other transition elements that are capable of dissolving significant amounts of hydrogen also work. I do not know if liquid phase elements work. I suspect not because of lack of grain boundaries [electric field potential] and solubility of H2, but do not know for sure.
 
If you keep tossing two coins, which one will land first on "heads"?

So we do not know enough about nuclear stability to predict which will disintegrate and the sample is statistically small enough to say that neither or both will disintegrate in some time.
 
The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.

EON srl has been sold and the small prototype unit has been removed. Rossi's company modified MAN diesel generator sets [750kw to run on biofuels.]

Rossi was cleared of wrongdoing or he would not have been able to get a green card.

The delay in commercialization is the result of 'due diligence' by the investors. I have been associated with lesser technical developments and things always take longer than expected. Run-of-the-mill tweaks and minor incremental improvements go relatively quickly but major technology improvements have more roadblocks and delays. This would be a world-changing discovery.
Many companies are now preparing for the possibility that the device works and are taking out insurance patents. There are also some extortion patents being filed by others.

There is no evidence whatsoever that it uses fusion. In fact - if it exists - I am betting it uses "control" tri phased strong current to slow the reaction (LOL).
 
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