Certainly an endangered species at best in this time of extremists. Wondering if there are any others out there as I've found pretty much all family/friends are on one extremist "side" or the other and so impossible to have an objective or even rational discussion about politics with. God forbid you suggest that any liberal (or conservative) idea ever had any merit of any kind ever...it's like blaspheming their holy cause. Sad and scary.
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Are moderates extinct
- Thread starter bigred
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The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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Bernie is a Moderate.
Pretty much everyone else is a far-right Capitalist or Nationalist Extremist
Pretty much everyone else is a far-right Capitalist or Nationalist Extremist
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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- 26,407
Fact
IMO the moderates occupy the centre, centre-left of the Democratic Party but then again I live in the UK and my Overton Window hasn't been displaced to the right as it appears it has in the US.
IMO many of Ronald Reagan's policy positions, especially those relating to taxation, the economy and environmental regulation, would be viewed as being dangerously Marxist by today's mainstream Republicans and Eisenhower's would be worrying most of the Democratic Party.
IMO many of Ronald Reagan's policy positions, especially those relating to taxation, the economy and environmental regulation, would be viewed as being dangerously Marxist by today's mainstream Republicans and Eisenhower's would be worrying most of the Democratic Party.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Based on the still-preliminary analysis of U.S. election results, I think you can say that moderates are certainly endangered. The voting seems to have polarized this year when compared to previous years. Of course this is when we consider moderates within the U.S. political and ideological landscape, which doesn't align with most other democracies. The emerging wisdom is that the U.S. has broadly shifted farther right, but that can be explained also by the incumbent effect—whatever's going wrong, the incumbent gets blamed for it an punished in the election. But also yes, I fear Ronald Reagan's policies wouldn't even be recognized by the modern Republican Party.
Thermal
August Member
Kinda sorta Blue Dog here. Yeah, it's getting pretty lonely.
In America? Certainly not in your two far right parties.
The Trope that the US is some crazy right wing country is well, just a trope and the notion that its just the right in the US that has shifted to the extreme is...well something only a lefty would believe. The only way that is possibly true is that Americans are generally more supportive of freemarkets and more skeptical of government. Which, is dubious to say is right wing. At least according to the noted right wing think tank, the PEW research Center.
And the Partisan website 538.
fivethirtyeight.com
The reality is that the average american is rather moderate in there views and tend to agree more than not. The News and the Parties would rather have us believe otherwise.
Abortion is a great example. About 10% of Americans think it should always be illegal, about 20% think it should always be legal. About 70% of Americans think it should be always legal in the first trimester, mostly illegal in the third with some transition in the second. Which is basically where you Euro's have ended up. If you listen to the politicians and the media. 40% of Americans think it should always be illegal and 40% think it should be legal up to age 2, while 20% of americans are morons.
And the Partisan website 538.
Why The Democrats Have Shifted Left Over The Last 30 Years
Graphics by Yutong Yuan The 2020 Democratic primary field has been touted as far more liberal than that of previous years. Candidates have proposed a number of …
fivethirtyeight.com
The reality is that the average american is rather moderate in there views and tend to agree more than not. The News and the Parties would rather have us believe otherwise.
Abortion is a great example. About 10% of Americans think it should always be illegal, about 20% think it should always be legal. About 70% of Americans think it should be always legal in the first trimester, mostly illegal in the third with some transition in the second. Which is basically where you Euro's have ended up. If you listen to the politicians and the media. 40% of Americans think it should always be illegal and 40% think it should be legal up to age 2, while 20% of americans are morons.
plague311
Great minds think...
The Trope that the US is some crazy right wing country is well, just a trope and the notion that its just the right in the US that has shifted to the extreme is...well something only a lefty would believe. The only way that is possibly true is that Americans are generally more supportive of freemarkets and more skeptical of government. Which, is dubious to say is right wing. At least according to the noted right wing think tank, the PEW research Center.
And the Partisan website 538.
Why The Democrats Have Shifted Left Over The Last 30 Years
Graphics by Yutong Yuan The 2020 Democratic primary field has been touted as far more liberal than that of previous years. Candidates have proposed a number of …
The reality is that the average american is rather moderate in there views and tend to agree more than not. The News and the Parties would rather have us believe otherwise.
Abortion is a great example. About 10% of Americans think it should always be illegal, about 20% think it should always be legal. About 70% of Americans think it should be always legal in the first trimester, mostly illegal in the third with some transition in the second. Which is basically where you Euro's have ended up. If you listen to the politicians and the media. 40% of Americans think it should always be illegal and 40% think it should be legal up to age 2, while 20% of americans are morons.
That means exactly ◊◊◊◊ all when the American public votes in politicians that ban abortion, right? I mean, just because some polls say that's what American's think doesn't mean it's reflected in reality. The GOP crushed the Dems this election cycle and they're about as against abortion as a political party can be, so while your articles are neat and all, they aren't reflected by reality.
stanfr
Illuminator
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,255
When it first came out, I figured the internet and social media would moderate us all, provide for a free exchange of ideas and be inclusive, promoting a sense of community. Of course the exact opposite happened, it became a tool of propaganda and was used for mass manipulation, driving people into distinct camps, giving them an echo chamber, and encouraging the fringe by giving them a platform and a bullhorn--and of course the craziest are usually the loudest. It is patently obvious however to me, as a former life long Independent who prided myself on seeing both sides, that lunacy has been embraced by a large chunk of the population, and it began on the right. You can't even begin to discuss "politics" and what constitutes moderate policies when the entire show has been taken over by loons ranting in all caps.
It's a binary choice and there is more than one issue most folks care about. Also, misses point. Even if the GOP is as anti-abortion as a party could be, its not, when given a chance the majority of Americans even in very red states have voted against restrictive abortion laws. So, like I said, there are plenty of moderates on that issue, they just aren't well represented. On that issue, the Dems are closer to be sure.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
So it turns out that the Greater Internet ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Theory is not only true on the internet, but actually spills over into real life. And controls the destiny of nations.
eta: uh, I did as told and "left the autocensor to do its thing" but I think one iteration got missed. Don't kill me.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Modrates are getting blasted by both sides, sadly.
stanfr
Illuminator
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2008
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- 3,255
No, this is not a 'both sides' thing, anymore than Trump's "there are very fine people on both sides" BS. Sure, there are some fringe leftists who want to do weird things like simply abolish the police on the first day, but they are in a very small minority. Meanwhile, the *entire* 'right' wing has been subjugated by someone who has proudly shared Qanon memes and slogans on a daily basis. They are now the norm of the right. Saying there are "two extremes" and no centrists at this time is no different than saying that people who believe Bigfoot exists are no less extreme than people who deny Bigfoot's existence--and that the only 'moderates' are people who say "well I reserve judgment, he might be out there..." That's what this has come down to.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Uh, in this forum some ..by no means all.....on the left have shown totla contempt for moderates.
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster., Tagger
"Nobody's a moderate except me and a few of my close friends."
"Right-wing" and "extreme left" are hot potatoes thrown about, but what exactly a moderate IS changes with each throw.
"Right-wing" and "extreme left" are hot potatoes thrown about, but what exactly a moderate IS changes with each throw.
Trausti
Graduate Poster
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- Apr 4, 2023
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- 1,768
Venom
Philosopher
They're hooked on social media I bet.
plague311
Great minds think...
I'm sure you have examples of this...just kidding. I know you don't.
If you have political views that happen to be moderate, fine. If you are constantly shifting your political views to be "moderate", you are useless. There is a difference.
Tero
Illuminator
Almost. We have one. I posted on his Facebook page, which his staff reads.
I posted a little thing at one of our congressmen's Facebook page. He is in a purple district.
I said:
Would you like to have the "elected back 2026" award? You will need to stop Trump from repealing the ACA and Elon from cutting my SS by 30%. You and 10 others in blue districts.
Trumpster said:
hahaha your a moron
That is as eloquent as Trumpsters get.
There was some thought in the post below that:
Quit patting yourself on the back. It's time to clean up our Government and cut it down. You've had no problem spending money we didn't have. Now its time to clean house .
The congressman has a hard time. He needs to see when Trumpism is waning.
I posted a little thing at one of our congressmen's Facebook page. He is in a purple district.
I said:
Would you like to have the "elected back 2026" award? You will need to stop Trump from repealing the ACA and Elon from cutting my SS by 30%. You and 10 others in blue districts.
Trumpster said:
hahaha your a moron
That is as eloquent as Trumpsters get.
There was some thought in the post below that:
Quit patting yourself on the back. It's time to clean up our Government and cut it down. You've had no problem spending money we didn't have. Now its time to clean house .
The congressman has a hard time. He needs to see when Trumpism is waning.
Donal
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,256
Exactly. If you look honestly at an issue and decide a "middle ground" is best, that's perfectly fine.
When you dogmatically run to a perceived "middle" every time there is a disagreement, irrespective of intellectual or moral merits, that's dumb. And it is something the right has weaponized.
Sometimes there is no middle to be found. For example a debate on whether or not it's right to summarily execute slaves for minor infractions doesn't address the bigger issue of slave holding.
Thermal
August Member
One of our former republican State governors had a position that wouldn't fly with today's RINOs. On abortion, he was pro-life as many Rs are. But he was very adamantly "pro-life for the WHOLE life", advocating everything from WIC to adult addiction help. Social services so robust that they would make even one of our modern liberals blush. He's not in office any more.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
Re Ronnie, not true, he was the president of voodoo economics, the assertion that if you switched the burden of taxation from being on the rich to being on the poor, the rich would, in their gratitude, give poor people loads of money.
The simple fact of the matter is that the right have openly been economically far right for decades and clandestinely so on social issues. The only differerence between Ray-Gun's republicans and today's was that back in the 80s the racism was cloaked in euphemism and dog whistles whereas today it is shouted from the rooftops. There has been no change in the substance of the racism over the period, and as regards economics it's always been "rob from the poor to feed the rich".
Donal
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,256
I can get behind that. If he backed policies that focused on health care, education, and financial stability, he probably would have prevented far more abortions than any sort of blanket ban.
Thermal
August Member
He did. He also signed a couple bills protecting trans folk in both the schools (and teaching about trans issues) and preventing health care from discriminating against trans people. Totally wouldn't fly in today's Red climate.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
The "moderates" slip ever further to the right with each election, because all too often "moderates" are rightwingers unwilling to admit to their political affiliations.
The big problem in western politics is that too many of the established parties of the left thought the defeat of Soviet communism spelt the death of left wing economics (it didn't, it just added to thr mountainnof evidenceof the unviability of capitalism) and embraced the privatisation and deregulation obsessions of the right and haven't given them up. Currently in too many major economies there is no major parties willing to stand up for working people in economic terms, giving plenty of space to the far right tp spew their lies and get away with them. If the likes of the Dems or Labour went back to their working class roots they would pick up a lot of votes, not straight away because people have to be persuaded but over time; and they wouldn't have to give up their social inclusion talk either (though it would be nice if they did more than talk there too).
3point14
Pi
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 22,353
Because the Bilionarre owned, right-wing press slaughters anyone that does. And the people lap that up. Look what happens if you mention Corbyn after the hatchet job done on him. Look what happened to Bernie.
If anyone with a platform speaks up for the rights of people to be paid a fair wage and not, for example, to have to work three jobs to make ends meet, the Billionaires will have their press-monkeys slaughter them.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
Same was true in the post war period when the left was ascendant and had the courage of their convictions. A large part of the problem for parties that were traditionally part of the left is that they are not willing to fight.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Angry a majority of people in the UK and the US are not as far to the left as you are, right?
Mojo
Mostly harmless
By defining everyone from south of Unst as English, I can prove that True Scotsmen are endangered.
3point14
Pi
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- Nov 4, 2005
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- 22,353
I'm pretty 'left'. But no,not really.
I am angry that a wage that is sufficient for one job to be enough to live on and a decent social safety net, affordable healthcare and restricting the power of money in politics is now considered to be a radical position.
With the caveat, of course, that a point on a line is not a reasonable way of describing a raft of political views across a vast number of issues.
plague311
Great minds think...
It's really telling that he's making a point about how terrible people get treated and you're acting as if the left is the problem. Expected behavior for sure but always fun to see you take the mask off every once in awhile.
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
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- May 26, 2006
- Messages
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Both parties seem to be in the "Let's burn the heretics!" mood currently. Somebody who is a moderate is always going to find some areas of agreement with the Democrats and some areas of agreement with the Republicans. And when they do you can bet that there will be howls that they support turning the country into a socialist hellhole/Nazi Germany. Look at Kyrsten Sinema, for example. The Americans for Democratic Action, a liberal interest group, rated her at 70% in 2023, which is to say that on 20 votes, Sinema voted the way the ADA supported 14 times. But even that doesn't tell the full story. For example, on Senate Vote 49, 31 Democrats voted the "wrong" way according to the ADA, and only 13 Democrats fell in line. Indeed, on three of the votes where Sinema broke with the ADA, her fellow Arizona Senator, Mark Kelly joined her.
And this put her nowhere near the moderate Republicans; Murkowski and Collins were at 40%. Murkowski is another good example; she got primaried in 2022 for being insufficiently deferential to Trump.
And this put her nowhere near the moderate Republicans; Murkowski and Collins were at 40%. Murkowski is another good example; she got primaried in 2022 for being insufficiently deferential to Trump.