Ed Sinn Fein leader arrested for 1972 IRA killing

[Cylinder]

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams held over Jean McConville murder

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams has been arrested by Northern Ireland police in connection with the 1972 murder of Jean McConville.

He presented himself to police on Wednesday evening and was arrested.

Speaking before his arrest, Mr Adams said he was "innocent of any part" in the murder.

Mrs McConville, a 37-year-old widow and mother-of-10, was abducted from her flat in the Divis area of west Belfast and shot by the IRA.

Her body was recovered from a beach in County Louth in 2003.

Title should read Sinn Fein. Grrr....

 

[fuelair]

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams held over Jean McConville murder



Title should read Sinn Fein. Grrr....

IRA never was anything but a bunch of thugs and murderers - not that the B&T and other groups there weren't also. Damn shame they weren't all packed in a leaky freighter and shipped out to sea.

 

[fuelair]

Oooops.

 

[geni]

This had the potential to go very very wrong.

 

[angrysoba]

IRA never was anything but a bunch of thugs and murderers - not that the B&T and other groups there weren't also. Damn shame they weren't all packed in a leaky freighter and shipped out to sea.

The Black and Tans were from an era when the Irish Republican Army was actually NOT a bunch of thugs and murderers but a genuine revolutionary army. The Black and Tans were mostly First World War veterans similar to the Freikorps in Germany.

Now, the Provisional Wing of the IRA - or Sinn Fein's terrorist wing, and the "loyalist" counterpart The UVF, are more deserving of the label "bunch of thugs and murderers".

 

[ddt]

From the BBC article:

The case against Bell is based on an interview he allegedly gave to researchers at Boston College in the US.

The Boston College tapes are a series of candid, confessional interviews with former loyalist and republican paramilitaries, designed to be an oral history of the Troubles.

The paramilitaries were told the tapes would only be made public after their deaths.

However, after a series of court cases in the United States, some of the content has been handed over to the authorities.

I think that is worrying. These tapes contain first-hand testimonies from both IRA and UVF members. If contemporary historians cannot guarantee secrecy to their sources, a lot of interesting facts and views will be lost forever, because such people will not talk and take their testimony to their grave.

As we speak, someone is tearing up a grant proposal for an oral history project about the Argentinian dirty war, or the Rwandan genocide, or you name it, because it has become pointless.

 

[angrysoba]

From the BBC article:

I think that is worrying. These tapes contain first-hand testimonies from both IRA and UVF members. If contemporary historians cannot guarantee secrecy to their sources, a lot of interesting facts and views will be lost forever, because such people will not talk and take their testimony to their grave.

As we speak, someone is tearing up a grant proposal for an oral history project about the Argentinian dirty war, or the Rwandan genocide, or you name it, because it has become pointless.

It's certainly difficult to weigh up various considerations such as peace, justice and historical interest.

For the most part, the Northern Ireland peace process has been going ahead on the basis of putting peace before justice, with certain amnesties being granted. I don't think that has been extended to civilian murders though.

In this case, it is alleged that a separate IRA member implicated Adams, and the evidence for this case did not come from the interviews.

It is a difficult dilemma when it comes to information about cases of murder and weighing up justice and historical interest, I think.

 

[Brainster]

I have zero hope that Gerry Adams will ever face justice for the many murders he committed and/or authorized. I assume at some point he will get a Nobel Peace Prize instead.

Not a believer in Heaven or Hell, but if ever there was a reason to hope for their existence, the prospect of Gerry Adams and some of the other Rafia scum dancing in the flames is it.

 

[Darat]

IRA never was anything but a bunch of thugs and murderers - not that the B&T and other groups there weren't also. Damn shame they weren't all packed in a leaky freighter and shipped out to sea.

Whilst I understand your feelings in the real world such simplistic approaches don't work to solve the actual problems.

 

[Darat]

From the BBC article:

I think that is worrying. These tapes contain first-hand testimonies from both IRA and UVF members. If contemporary historians cannot guarantee secrecy to their sources, a lot of interesting facts and views will be lost forever, because such people will not talk and take their testimony to their grave.

As we speak, someone is tearing up a grant proposal for an oral history project about the Argentinian dirty war, or the Rwandan genocide, or you name it, because it has become pointless.

Then history will have to suffer, the idea that people can confess to horrendous crimes without being held to account is against natural justice. In most countries there is the equivalent of Queen's evidence for when the admission of a single persons' crimes is required for the purpose of justice.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Then history will have to suffer, the idea that people can confess to horrendous crimes without being held to account is against natural justice. In most countries there is the equivalent of Queen's evidence for when the admission of a single persons' crimes is required for the purpose of justice.

Queen's evidence is only accepted in exchange for some really hardball bargains (as in immunity from prosecution or mitigation in sentencing).

 

[yodaluver28]

I have zero hope that Gerry Adams will ever face justice for the many murders he committed and/or authorized. I assume at some point he will get a Nobel Peace Prize instead.

Not a believer in Heaven or Hell, but if ever there was a reason to hope for their existence, the prospect of Gerry Adams and some of the other Rafia scum dancing in the flames is it.

Sadly, you're probably right but I'm glad that his responsibility for her murder is getting some attention. It's been ignored for far too long.

 

[fuelair]

It's certainly difficult to weigh up various considerations such as peace, justice and historical interest.

For the most part, the Northern Ireland peace process has been going ahead on the basis of putting peace before justice, with certain amnesties being granted. I don't think that has been extended to civilian murders though.

In this case, it is alleged that a separate IRA member implicated Adams, and the evidence for this case did not come from the interviews.

It is a difficult dilemma when it comes to information about cases of murder and weighing up justice and historical interest, I think.

As much as I am for historical records, research and best information, I am far more interested in proper punishment for murdering scum especially as in the case specifically being discussed.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Actually, isn't Gerry a TD, which grants him limited immunity from prosecution?

 

[ddt]

It's certainly difficult to weigh up various considerations such as peace, justice and historical interest.

Will you please not give such reasonable reactions? But more below.

For the most part, the Northern Ireland peace process has been going ahead on the basis of putting peace before justice, with certain amnesties being granted. I don't think that has been extended to civilian murders though.

The word "civilian" raises another interesting point: what counts as "civilian" here? As far as I can read, the IRA at the time thought that Jean McConville was an informant for the Unionist side.

And just to be clear: I don't want in any way, shape or form downplay the vileness and the gruesomeness of the murder, nor how utterly wrong they were in their assumptions about Ms. McConville.

In this case, it is alleged that a separate IRA member implicated Adams, and the evidence for this case did not come from the interviews.

It is a difficult dilemma when it comes to information about cases of murder and weighing up justice and historical interest, I think.

Then history will have to suffer, the idea that people can confess to horrendous crimes without being held to account is against natural justice. In most countries there is the equivalent of Queen's evidence for when the admission of a single persons' crimes is required for the purpose of justice.

I had to look up what "Queen's evidence" is and then found out the Dutch term translates to "Crown witness" . No contest from me here; I don't dispute that the public prosecutor should have the possibility to coax witnesses, typically small criminal fish, into singing against their former criminal associates in exchange for a lessened sentence or even immunity.

But that's not what's happened here. Two former IRA members, Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price, have made claims to Adams' involvement in the murder, both in 2010. Hughes was already dead - the statement was in a book published posthumously - but Price was alive and kicking. Subsequently, the Northern Irish Police has requested the taped interviews to be released. As far as I can see from various newspaper articles about it, the request was not limited to the interviews of Hughes and Price. And in reaction to this, several other interviewees of the project have requested their interviews to be destroyed. They have all been interviewed on the assurance that those interviews would not be released during their own lifetime.

At least in the case of Price, that was not the case, and I don't see why the police couldn't just interview Price themselves to retell her tale about the McConville murder, possibly with a promise of a lesser sentence or immunity for herself.

There are long-standing cases of confidentiality: doctors, attorneys, journalists, priests all have privilege about their communication with their clients and sources. And there are more.

Suppose a former IRA member would leave a sealed envelope with their attorney, with the instruction it only be opened after their death, and the police got wind of it. Would you approve the police go after the attorney to seize the envelope?

Or would you approve the police go after the priest of a former IRA member and grill him about what was said during confession?

Another example of privilege is the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates accidents. By law, its reports cannot be entered into evidence in criminal proceedings, and it will only release testimonies to the prosecutor on the express consent of the witness. The goal of the safety board is to learn lessons from accidents so similar accidents won't happen again. That goal could not be served if parties could not freely speak to the board.

Just as an attorney can't do his job properly without the client-attorney privilege, and a journalist can't do his job without promising confidentiality to (some of) his sources, a contemporary historian can't do it either with promising confidentiality in subjects like this. The Boston Tapes simply would not exist if the interviewees had not had the expectation of confidentiality of their statements. Without that promise, the people involved would keep their mouths shut and take their secrets with them to their graves.

And in fact, the family of other such murder cases is also better served by confidentiality, because it means that in 10, 20 years time the circumstances around the murder may very well be revealed, while without confidentiality, it will always remain unclear.

 

[zooterkin]

Queen's evidence is only accepted in exchange for some really hardball bargains (as in immunity from prosecution or mitigation in sentencing).

Not quite sure what you're saying, since "turning Queen's evidence" implies gaining immunity from prosecution or a reduction in sentence in return for the testimony against one's accomplices.

 

[geni]

There are long-standing cases of confidentiality: doctors, attorneys, journalists, priests all have privilege about their communication with their clients and sources.

Under UK law doctors and attorneys have some privileges. Journalists and priests don't.

Suppose a former IRA member would leave a sealed envelope with their attorney, with the instruction it only be opened after their death, and the police got wind of it. Would you approve the police go after the attorney to seize the envelope?

Depends which country it was in.

Or would you approve the police go after the priest of a former IRA member and grill him about what was said during confession?

That would be pointless. The priest isn't going to say anything.

Just as an attorney can't do his job properly without the client-attorney privilege, and a journalist can't do his job without promising confidentiality to (some of) his sources,

He can promise what he will. Only a foolish source would belive him.

a contemporary historian can't do it either with promising confidentiality in subjects like this. The Boston Tapes simply would not exist if the interviewees had not had the expectation of confidentiality of their statements. Without that promise, the people involved would keep their mouths shut and take their secrets with them to their graves.

The historians are free to talk to the maths department about hard encryption. MI6 is free to bug the rooms the interview takes place in. If you kill someone goverments are going to take an interest.

And in fact, the family of other such murder cases is also better served by confidentiality, because it means that in 10, 20 years time the circumstances around the murder may very well be revealed, while without confidentiality, it will always remain unclear.

No in 10-20 years time a bunch of terrorsts with get another chance to try and write history in their favor.

 

[catsmate]

Title should read Sinn Fein. Grrr....

No it should read Sinn Féin.

Then history will have to suffer, the idea that people can confess to horrendous crimes without being held to account is against natural justice. In most countries there is the equivalent of Queen's evidence for when the admission of a single persons' crimes is required for the purpose of justice.

Of course there are other options such as a South Africa style Truth and Reconciliation commission with formal immunity.

Actually, isn't Gerry a TD, which grants him limited immunity from prosecution?

Oh good grief............................

 

[Architect]

No it should read Sinn Féin.

Chan eil.

 

[WildCat]

It always was a sick joke that Sinn Fein was the "political wing" of a terrorist group but had nothing at all to do with terrorism itself. You don't put a political hat on a terrorist and suddenly he's not a terrorist any more.