Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Oh, and what is this superior explanation Nencini gives of who lugged the humongous knife over to her place? I'll be interested to hear it. Self defence on the streets of Perugia has presumably been rejected as too absurd, which is a big relief, because we wouldn't want any ridicule to attend the prosecution case. Still, Massei did say it with a straight face. What does that make him? An idiot?
 
3 or 4?

Hi Machiavelli,
Glad you're back, missed ya, bro!

Anyways, I was at the beach today and a thought crossed my mind, might you help me figure something out?

The bra clasp of Meredith's,
that your Doctor Stefanoni is holding here:


has 3 or 4 other DNA profiles on it, right?

Either Meredith was a slut and any Tom, Dick, Betty or Jane could have some fun with her
or that bra clasp is contaminated, right?

Which answer would you agree with?
RW
 
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Laura or Filomena?

Both Knox and Sollecito told the police they were consuming drugs the evening of Meredith's murder. Knox admitted that she had lied about drug use and changed her story during the November 5 interview.

She blamed her decision to lie about drug use on Laura, one of her roommates. She explains the whole thing in her book.

Read it.

I have, and your characterization of it and of my comment are both misleading. As I said before, the only thing that Amanda acknowledged consuming was cannabis. As for Laura's encouraging Amanda to lie, that concerned the fact that the four women used cannabis at the flat. Let's not conflate the two. I do agree about one thing, namely that reading Amanda's book is a good idea. I will have to mark this day in my calendar.


Hi Prof. Halides,
I recall reading that Amanda has said she never bought pot,
but instead gave the Italian girlz $ to help pay for the spinellos they smoked.

Ah, the sweet 1st puff off a fat joint:



Do you remember ever reading that Rudy Guede came over to the Italian boyz flat downstairs the 2nd time,
uninvited, and they watched some Formula One race?

Well check this out, in Rudy's 2nd Interrogation with PM Mignini,
Guede mentions seeing 1 of the Italian girls from upstairs coming down to buy some "smokes":

Pros. Mignini - And you didn’t go above in that moment, on the floor above?

Guede - In that moment I didn’t go there, no the first time was in fact the
evening of the first of November and when I was at the place of the
guys below, I didn’t know the Italian girls however that day that we watched the Formula One a girl that lived above came down and what I noticed was that she gave 5 Euros to one of the guys and she took some smokes and that was it. That’s when I saw one of the Italian girls who lived above.
Pros. Mignini - And Amanda and Meredith weren’t there?

Guede - That day no, no there was just me and the Italian guys.


Link - Page 21:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RG-Transcript.pdf


I gather "smokes" is pot,
for if I recall correctly, Raffaele said that he was "smoked", when he went to that fatefull interrogation at 10:00pm on the night of Nov. 5, so confused he couldn't even get his dates correct, and the nice cops wouldn't even let him look at a calendar. That same night, you know, the last night before Amanda's Mother was due to arrive in town...
 
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I am way behind the thread, so this may have been mentioned. Frank Sfarzo says Nencini allows 9 20 rather than 9 26 for computer interaction. Thus he is helping himself to a useful 6 minutes. I suspect this is convenient rounding down, but would the time be from the computer clock, so potentially fallible, or from ISP data?


The time for Naruto would be from the system clock but the system clock would likely be synced via the Network Time Protocol to a time server which by default for Macs would be time.apple.com. If there were any question of the accuracy of the system time it should have been possible to correlate activity logged by the system with activity logged by the ISP.

Nencini is simply lying about the time so the kids can get to the basket ball court by 9:27 as witnessed by Curatolo.
 
Finzi testimony

Q: What did you do?
A: Exactly, the first thing that I did, in that I had my back to the door, there was a kitchen drawer and I opened it, I opened the first kitchen drawer.
Q: You had the gloves on obviously, let’s just repeat that
A: We had on new clean gloves. So the first thing I saw was a large knife. I should state that it was very clean.
[text eliminated about verifying knife being referred to is the same as in photo, and about size of knife]
Q: Were there other knives?
A: There were other knives yes however I took this knife because in the briefing that had been given to us, using investigative intuition, I took it and I showed it immediately to Dr. Chiacchiera, I said: “Doctor I would take this” and Dr Chiacchiera …
A: You mean it was a knife that could have been relevant?
Q: It could have been relevant in that the blade could have been by my reckoning compatible with the injuries that I had never seen however I knew they were serious.


Are search warrants not required in Italy?
 
Curatolo was where?

Hey Dan O.,
Why do you reckon, in Rudy Guede's 2nd Interrogation with Prosocuter Mignini, that Rudy said NO when asked if he saw Curatolo the night Miss Kercher was brutally knifed to her death?

Pros. Mignini - A question, do you know the tramp in Piazza Griamana?... There’s a
tramp who hangs about Piazza Grimana near the kiosk.

Guede - I have to say with all honesty I’ve seen more than one in Piazza
Grimana

Pros. Mignini - One that has a hat a bit… long beard…



Guede - I’ve often noticed the kiosk, the bench, I’ve often seen a tramp yes…

Pros. Mignini - Right, that evening did you see him?

Guede - No.


Link - Page 41:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/RG-Transcript.pdf


What?!?
Rudy Guede did not see, per Mignini: the "tramp" when he went over to Miss Kercher's flat and left it soon after she was raped and killed on Rudy's 1st Date with her? Didn't he pass by the basketball court when he split? Sure, he mentioned that The Chinese were playin' ball that night. So where was Curatolo? Hidin' in the bushes shootin' up? Or did he just smoke that heroin?
 
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The time for Naruto would be from the system clock but the system clock would likely be synced via the Network Time Protocol to a time server which by default for Macs would be time.apple.com. If there were any question of the accuracy of the system time it should have been possible to correlate activity logged by the system with activity logged by the ISP.

Nencini is simply lying about the time so the kids can get to the basket ball court by 9:27 as witnessed by Curatolo.

It's pretty amazing that Nencini is willing to be so blatant a liar. Computers don't really lie. Sometimes they fail and sometimes techs burn up four hard drives..not any techs that I know...but that's humans for you.

Nencini is willing to believe the testimony of a junky who didn't come forward after 6 months over a computer log.. Now that's really stupid.
 
I jus point out Stefanoni is not a "technician", she is an expert in molecular biology, has a PhD


It might have been a mistake the first time:
I remind you that she is a molecular biologist; that she is also the author of scientific articles that went in the top-list of international forensic litarature, and that, albeit you never investigated that, in al likeliness, she also has a PhD. (these are facts not opinions).


But to come back for a repeat after the trouncing you took the last time :boggled:

October 5, 2008
http://www.repubblica.it/2008/10/se...-uccisa8/perugia-uccisa8/perugia-uccisa8.html
Responsible Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome

29 Marzo 2011
http://www.biotecnologie.univaq.it/getres.php
I Biotecnologi nella Polizia Scientifica
Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni - Biologa
 
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Are search warrants not required in Italy?

They are. They arrested the guy, and then before they allowed him access to his lawyer, they made him let them into his apartment so they could grab his computer and a fake murder weapon. It's an illegal search and seizure which on the US would result in the suppression of the knife. In Italy, I guess it's normal.
 
Nencini is simply lying about the time so the kids can get to the basket ball court by 9:27 as witnessed by Curatolo.

LOL. Does the liar think he fooled anybody? This is as sophomoric as migninis stunt when he edited out half if the text message to make it sound more incriminating. Hilarious the way these clowns think it's fine to just make stuff up.
 
1. There is no need to have detectable amounts of blood, in order to have DNA. And there is no need to have find blood at all, in order to find a murder weapon. DNA is, by far greater concentration than blood, in any other possible tissue a murder weapon would retain: muscle cells, bone, chartilage, epitheliums etc.
2. It's not even remotely possible to detect blood on the scale of DNA detection though a TMB test. The amounts required to detect DNA are by may magnitudes smaller. DNA can be duplicated (its amount amplificated), hemoglobine cannot. TMB has a true detection threshold, not just cautionary conventions like DNA.
3. The DNA was extracted from a sample collected from thin scratches on the blade. Those scratches are visible in crime photographies. The defence denies even the existence of the scratches.
4. What Chris says isn't correct science (see 2.).

Mach you are knowledgeable on many things, and your input here is helpful. But biology is not your forte, you really should not state as facts things that are not true. Bone and cartilage are connective tissue, cartilage in particular is almost cell free and will contain very little DNA. Bone cartilage and muscle would have been seen when the knife was examined, in fact did not Stefanoni in fact observe cellular material? Cellular material that turned out to be starch granules? The presence of which indicates that the knife had not been thoroughly cleaned? So the knife was examined for the type of material you refer to and it was absent. The catalytic tests for haemoglobin are very sensitive and can detect only a few molecules. to get a DNA profile you need intact many DNA molecules.

Haemoglobin is a 'tough' molecule it is resistant to cleaning and will get in to crevasses. DNA is relatively soluble, and degrades easily so no profile is extractable. The quantity of haemoglobin is massively greater than DNA in blood. If this knife were the murder weapon it cut a major vessel, causing massive bleeding, it would have been covered in blood. The ratio of haemoglobin to blood is orders of magnitude different than any differences in sensitivity testing, 30,000,000,000 : 1. Check the literature. Read the references given above.

As a simple sense check, take the luminol positive traces that you ascribe to being blood. They gave a strong presumptive test for blood, but they were negative for DNA.

As an aside I also would argue that the relative ratios of Knox and Kercher DNA also prove that Knox DNA could not have arisen at the time of the crime if the knife was used in the crime. To be put simply any knife used in the way proposed would contain far more DNA of the victim than the wielder, any cleaning would clean the DNA of victim and wielder equally. The ratios would remain the same. That there was a significant amount of Knox DNA on the handle is agreed. Using this observation to argue that Knox was the wielder of the knife is just wrong.
 
Are my memories right in that Stefanoni used a profile of Meredith to match the peaks and create the profile for sample 56B?
 
Mach you are knowledgeable on many things, and your input here is helpful. But biology is not your forte, you really should not state as facts things that are not true. Bone and cartilage are connective tissue, cartilage in particular is almost cell free and will contain very little DNA. Bone cartilage and muscle would have been seen when the knife was examined, in fact did not Stefanoni in fact observe cellular material? Cellular material that turned out to be starch granules? The presence of which indicates that the knife had not been thoroughly cleaned? So the knife was examined for the type of material you refer to and it was absent. The catalytic tests for haemoglobin are very sensitive and can detect only a few molecules. to get a DNA profile you need intact many DNA molecules.

Haemoglobin is a 'tough' molecule it is resistant to cleaning and will get in to crevasses. DNA is relatively soluble, and degrades easily so no profile is extractable. The quantity of haemoglobin is massively greater than DNA in blood. If this knife were the murder weapon it cut a major vessel, causing massive bleeding, it would have been covered in blood. The ratio of haemoglobin to blood is orders of magnitude different than any differences in sensitivity testing, 30,000,000,000 : 1. Check the literature. Read the references given above.

As a simple sense check, take the luminol positive traces that you ascribe to being blood. They gave a strong presumptive test for blood, but they were negative for DNA.

As an aside I also would argue that the relative ratios of Knox and Kercher DNA also prove that Knox DNA could not have arisen at the time of the crime if the knife was used in the crime. To be put simply any knife used in the way proposed would contain far more DNA of the victim than the wielder, any cleaning would clean the DNA of victim and wielder equally. The ratios would remain the same. That there was a significant amount of Knox DNA on the handle is agreed. Using this observation to argue that Knox was the wielder of the knife is just wrong.

Exactly this - trying to wash blood of anything is incredibly difficult

And to quote C&V again
3. Taking into account that none of the recommendations of the international scientific community relative to the treatment of Low Copy Number (LCN) samples were followed, we do not accept the conclusions regarding the certain attribution of the profile found on trace B (blade of knife) to the victim Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, since the genetic profile, as obtained, appears unreliable insofar as it is not supported by scientifically validated analysis;

And for this arguing for guilt, please explain why:

1) No evidence they were in the room where the murder took place - all the evidence, fingerprints, footprints and DNA was of Rudy Guede, Rudy Guede's DNA was also found inside of Meredith Kercher
2) No blood was found on the clothes Amanda had been seen wearing only a few hours earlier
3) The autopsy report indicates a likely time of death too early for Amanda and Raffaele to be involved, as there is computer evidence at Raffaele's flat
4) Suggesting that the burglary was staged is ludicrous - Rudy Guede was a known burglar who had a history of breaking into buildings by throwing rocks through second story windows. This is EXACTLY what happened at the cottage that night
5) The knife suggested as the murder weapon did not match the wounds and did not match the print of the knife at the scene
6) Independent experts who looked at the knife, did NOT find DNA of Meredith Kercher and widely discredited the prosecution's findings
7) the bra clasp found at the scene six weeks later was also discredited by independent experts
8) The pathologist who performed the autopsy believed there was no evidence from the wounds to conclude that there were multiple attackers
9) Meredith Kercher was killed and sexually assaulted by Rudy Guede, when she came home early and interrupted a burglary. This is far more believable than the multiple scenarios suggested by the prosecution, which now include a satanic ritual, a Fifty Shades of Grey style sex game and most recently am argument over Guede doing a poo
 
Nencini gives a fairly detailed description of the events around the murder. To a detail that I think is unknowable. I do not know whether this level of detail is a legal requirement. Perhaps Mach can enlighten me?

This has forced him to stretch facts to fit a narrative. Thus he utilises Knox DNA on the handle of Sollecito's knife to attribute the fatal stroke to her, despite as I have argued it being illogical to attribute the DNA on the handle to having any relationship to these events (this remains true even if the knife was used). He has Sollecito cutting the bra strap. However the forensic science was clear that the strap was torn not cut, so this seems a simple error of fact. I know some here will say that it has been so ruled by the court so it is now a judicial fact. It seems strange both defence and prosecution can agree on a fact and the judge come to a different conclusion.
 
If Nencini has moved the Naruto time back by 6 minutes in order to give them time to get to the Piazza by 9.27 there should be some factual basis. If the factual basis is as acbytesla says then Nencini is a genius who has brilliantly encapsulated the idiocy of the Italian judiciary in one finding. It's got to be a very deep joke.
 
But a surprising number are willing to make excuses for a rapist-murderer named Rudy Guede. Who called him "poor Rudy?"

I am amazed that Nencini has legally removed any knife from Rudy's hand. One of the more obvious problems is the lack of blood discovered on the supposed knife wielders' possessions. At the very least there should be concrete and supportable evidence of clothes gone missing.
 
I am amazed that Nencini has legally removed any knife from Rudy's hand. One of the more obvious problems is the lack of blood discovered on the supposed knife wielders' possessions. At the very least there should be concrete and supportable evidence of clothes gone missing.

Yes, indeed. He had cuts to his hands which he himself said were caused that night. His version is clearly not accepted by Nencini so instead it seems reasonable to put a knife in his hands especially as his cuts are of the classic variety described by Steve Moore. Nencini must conclude that Rudy cut his hands after he went to Germany because his friends did not report these cuts. I wonder how he got them in that case. He must have made up the story to buttress his claim of struggling with an intruder.

Now, this maybe links up with something RWVBWL posted - Rudy wanted the towels tested (did I read that aright?) and my guess is he wanted to prove that his blood was on them along with hers. Now, why wasn't that useful evidence preserved in a state in which his claim could be verified? Was it:

A incompetence or
B fraud?

Let's think. Stefanoni is a PhD says Mach and a truly top scientist. So it can't be A.

If it was fraud then we have a possible reason why the towels were improperly stored. Rudy was not going to be able to use them to back up his claim that he fought with Raffaele because that did not fit the original crime theory of three perps but with the wrong black guy. After all, that might make the cops look like idiots.

So maybe Rudy was framed too, as in my scenario C from yesterday:

C a bona fide crime theory is supported by fabricated evidence (which includes deliberately destroyed evidence).
 
Yes, indeed. He had cuts to his hands which he himself said were caused that night. His version is clearly not accepted by Nencini so instead it seems reasonable to put a knife in his hands especially as his cuts are of the classic variety described by Steve Moore. Nencini must conclude that Rudy cut his hands after he went to Germany because his friends did not report these cuts. I wonder how he got them in that case. He must have made up the story to buttress his claim of struggling with an intruder.

Now, this maybe links up with something RWVBWL posted - Rudy wanted the towels tested (did I read that aright?) and my guess is he wanted to prove that his blood was on them along with hers. Now, why wasn't that useful evidence preserved in a state in which his claim could be verified? Was it:

A incompetence or
B fraud?

Let's think. Stefanoni is a PhD says Mach and a truly top scientist. So it can't be A.

If it was fraud then we have a possible reason why the towels were improperly stored. Rudy was not going to be able to use them to back up his claim that he fought with Raffaele because that did not fit the original crime theory of three perps but with the wrong black guy. After all, that might make the cops look like idiots.

So maybe Rudy was framed too, as in my scenario C from yesterday:

C a bona fide crime theory is supported by fabricated evidence (which includes deliberately destroyed evidence).
If I understand DanO she was a BA in 2008 and a dottoressa in 2011. Probably a fast track education:)

ETA, I got curious, this is a random post

if one takes the averages it would take 5 1/2 years for undergrad, 3 years masters, and 4 years doctorate= 12 1/2 years.
 
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If I understand DanO she was a BA in 2008 and a dottoressa in 2011. Probably a fast track education:)

Well, Mach can't have it both ways is what I'm saying. Either she is a genius whose lab never had a case of contamination, in which case her many lapses must be due to deliberate fraud, or she is an incompetent lab technician whose evidence is worthless.
 
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