Botched Execution, Again

[bruto]

I've seen some reference to dignity, and the insistence on protocols different from standard euthanasia because we don't want to kill a person like a dog. That seems silly, if killing a dog is humane.

But one other difficulty seems to be the requirement that a person be conscious of his execution. I think there's still an element of capital punishment that presumes an afterlife in which the punishment itself is remembered, so there has to be a lesson not just for the rest of us but for the person being killed. For this reason, it seems, a person must be aware that he is being executed, though at the same time spared from pain.

If the object is simply to get rid of someone, I think it would be easier. Sneak up on him and put a bullet in his head. Knock him out. Put a drug in his last meal and kill him in his sleep. Hypoxia. Something.

I'm no fan of capital punishment, but if you're going to kill someone it seems it ought to be possible just to kill them without ceremony. Dead is dead.

 

[One Skunk Todd]

Did the problem occur because the IV was improperly administered or was there a problem with Lockett's physiology? If he had needed an IV for some other reason is it likely the same thing would have happened?

 

[RationalVetMed]

I am against the death penalty but I find myself not caring at all that he suffered a bit. Hypocritical probably but true.

That pretty much summarises my feeling too.

It's difficult, verging on impossible, for me to empathise or sympathise with someone like that so I can't find it in me to care about any suffering he might have endured. On the other hand I also can't understand the idea of wasting energy getting angry or wanting to be revenged on such people either. Why let them have a negative effect on me?

Yuri

 

[The Don]

I am merely establishing that by "having the death penalty on the books" being the metric for "Barbaric", that's a pretty low bar.

That's your opinion you're welcome to it. It's the punishment I think is barbaric.

 

[applecorped]

Couldn't have been that botched.... he's dead.

+1

 

[RationalVetMed]

Did the problem occur because the IV was improperly administered or was there a problem with Lockett's physiology? If he had needed an IV for some other reason is it likely the same thing would have happened?

The vein blew, according to the Guardian article referenced earlier. So the likelyhood is that the person doing the i/v botched the job and the drug went elsewhere than into the circulation so he didn't get an adequate dose where it counts.

Yuri

 

[Bob001]

....
The accounts of prisoner suffering are not coming from medical professionals. They are coming from witnesses who are likely under a lot of stress, given the circumstances. It makes more sense to me to think that these lay witnesses are seeing normal reactions, but (from lack of medical knowledge) assuming they are something they are not. As for prisoners speaking, it's well known that the human brain tries to make sense out of nothing. (i.e. seeing shapes in clouds). Isn't it possible that the "words" are just sounds that witness's brains are turning into coherent sentences?
...

The three-drug protocol starts with barbiturates that are supposed to put the prisoner to sleep (literally). If he is making any sounds, let alone trying to talk, he's not asleep. In this particular case (and several others), the authorities admit that they screwed up. It's not a case of witnesses not knowing what they are seeing. And a quite number of people (attorneys, prison officials) have witnessed multiple executions. They know what's right and what's not.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Some history as to how the 3 stage lethal injection came about:

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/clinics/dpclinic/LethalInjection/LI/documents/kit/history.pdf

 

[Professor Yaffle]

So, why wouldn't you, at stage 3, administer a fatal overdose of a barbiturate as per veterinary euthanasia. That way you start off with anaesthetic induction and then the continued administration results in death, so no need for any other steps.

Why the need for the muscle relaxant and the potassioum chloride - what does KCl do anyway?

Yuri

(with apologies for the morbid interest )

The other major criticism of the lethal injection method has been that if the prisoner isn't completely unconscious, he will feel the asphyxiation caused by the second drug, pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes all muscles, including those needed to breathe.
When asked why he included the asphyxiation drug in his formula, Chapman
answered, "It's a good question. If I were doing it now, I would probably eliminate it."
He added he wouldn't change the third drug, potassium chloride, which is highly effective at stopping the heart and causing cardiac arrest.

From my link above.

 

[One Skunk Todd]

The vein blew, according to the Guardian article referenced earlier. So the likelyhood is that the person doing the i/v botched the job and the drug went elsewhere than into the circulation so he didn't get an adequate dose where it counts.

Yuri

Do you know how the person botched the job? Did the needle not go into the vein? Or it went through? Or in at an incorrect angle? I just don't understand the words "blew" or "exploded" in this context.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've seen some reference to dignity, and the insistence on protocols different from standard euthanasia because we don't want to kill a person like a dog. That seems silly, if killing a dog is humane.

Phenobarbital sodium, a drug commonly used in the euthanization of animals, was considered as the one and only drug to be used in lethal injections.
But Gray said the drug wouldn’t stand up in the court of public opinion.

“Dr. Gray’s feelings on it were they would start equating lethal injection with killing dogs and that there would be public outcry against it and they had to come up with something different,” Etheredge said. “ At least that's what Dr. Gray said, and that sounds good to me.”

So Gray developed the current protocol, and it quickly was copied by 36 other states.

Same source.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Do you know how the person botched the job? Did the needle not go into the vein? Or it went through? Or in at an incorrect angle? I just don't understand the words "blew" or "exploded" in this context.

"Blowing a vein" is a term we use primarily when we're starting IV's. "It took me two tries, the first time I blew a vein". You've puctured the venous wall not only with your initial puncture but at another site. Sometimes you can tell immediately as the blood leaves the vein swelling and discoloration occur. Sometimes you don't know until you flush the IV with normal saline and the site swells. Swelling is what you look for.

http://allnurses.com/infusion-nursing-intravenous/newbie-question-about-113557.html

 

[One Skunk Todd]

http://allnurses.com/infusion-nursing-intravenous/newbie-question-about-113557.html

Thanks, that's what I was trying to understand.

 

[Babbylonian]

Do you know how the person botched the job? Did the needle not go into the vein? Or it went through? Or in at an incorrect angle? I just don't understand the words "blew" or "exploded" in this context.

It could have several causes but the bottom line is that the vein was leaking [too much] blood around or near the inserted needle. This results in the drug (a significant enough portion of it, anyway) leaking with that blood into surrounding tissues instead of being returned centrally as it's supposed to.

When people give blood, sometimes they'll develop a large bruise for similar reasons (either a bad stick or a bad vein).

ETA: Professored.

 

[Gallstones]

Isn't that unconstitutional?

No.

Death Penalty: an overview

Congress or any state legislature may prescribe the death penalty, also known as capital punishment, for murder and other capital crimes. The Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty is not a per se violation of the Eighth Amendment's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, but the Eighth Amendment does shape certain procedural aspects regarding when a jury may use the death penalty and how it must be carried out. Because of the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause, the Eighth Amendment applies against the states, as well as the federal government.

 

[Babbylonian]

No.

Death Penalty: an overview

Yes. While the SC has determined that the death penalty in and of itself isn't a violation of the Constitution, the suffering during its implementation (to which a_unique_person was referring when replying to my post) is indeed a violation.

ETA: FWIW, I agree that capital punishment is addressed (and approved, given due process) in the Constitution. That doesn't make it right.

 

[Cainkane1]

Too bad they didn't execute the other murderer. He had raped an 11 month old baby. Maybe Olahoma will get it right next time. As it is the murderer will have to wait for awhile.

 

[Gallstones]

Two things first...
1) I actually oppose the death penalty. My questions are not intended as arguments in favor.
2) I'm not a medical professional.



If breathing is paralyzed, how are they speaking? Especially in long, complete sentences?


About two years ago, I had to have one of my dogs put to sleep. The vet injected him, then listened to his heartbeat. Just after she told me his heart had stopped, his body shuddered and he exhaled. She explained that that was his muscles (especially the diaphragm) relaxing.*

The accounts of prisoner suffering are not coming from medical professionals. They are coming from witnesses who are likely under a lot of stress, given the circumstances. It makes more sense to me to think that these lay witnesses are seeing normal reactions, but (from lack of medical knowledge) assuming they are something they are not. As for prisoners speaking, it's well known that the human brain tries to make sense out of nothing. (i.e. seeing shapes in clouds). Isn't it possible that the "words" are just sounds that witness's brains are turning into coherent sentences?




* Or something like that. She did explain it, but, as you can imagine, my mind was otherwise occupied with crying.

It's called agonal gasping and is a reflex of the brain stem. The brain stem is the last of the brain to die under euthanasia. The heart can beat on for several minutes after everything else stops.

 

[Gallstones]

Now that's something I hadn't thought about.

So, if the person getting the vein for an execution isn't medical and only ever gets veins for this purpose they must be very inexperienced surely? I'm not sure how many executions are carried out by lethal injection but I've always thought it wasn't that many. How do they practice?

Coincidentally, since my post above, I've just had to euthanase a paraplegic dog who was aggressive and the vein blew (it was old, obese and debilitated). The sedative combination I used first though, meant she was already unconscious and didn't feel it (barbiturates can sting) and meant I had time to find another, useable vein. It all still seemed to go peacefully.

The Guardian article above seems to suggest that Oklahoma use a much lower dose of midazolam than other states. Maybe that's why he appeared to react when the vein blew?

Yuri

Were the owners present?
I'd have tried intracardiac after the vein blew and the dog was unconscious. But that might be disturbing for the client to witness.

 

[Gallstones]

Not necessarily for the person responsible for delivering the bullet.



I know you doubt it, after all you advocate the extra-judicial killing of prisoners by fellow inmates. IMO the death sentence is barbaric.

I was a correctional officer many years ago at Montana State Prison. Montana has executed very few persons in the past 30 years, however when there was an execution there was no shortage of staff stepping up to be the one to push the buttons.