Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Of course high resolution photographs of the blade reveal grooves any sighted person can see for themselves.

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage105/10556.pdf

I'm giving this one more go because I'm tired of the complete lies about this case Peter Quennell propagates.

If the striations are so visible so that any sighted person can see it for themselves, why did not Judge Massei just say that in his motivations report?

In fact, if you read the thing (which you clearly have not, and I doubt if Quennell has, or he would not say such idiotic things) you will read how Massei goes on at length about why the nearly invisible striations were only visible to Stefanoni, because of the complicated viewing technique she adopted.

I won't ruin it for you. You will have to read Massei's motivation report for yourself to discover the technique Stefanoni used, a technique apparently unavailable to others. It marks Stefanoni as a forensic innovator.....

.... either that or you'll get a good laugh.

Peter Quennell is a moron.
 
I'm giving this one more go because I'm tired of the complete lies about this case Peter Quennell propagates.

If the striations are so visible so that any sighted person can see it for themselves, why did not Judge Massei just say that in his motivations report?

In fact, if you read the thing (which you clearly have not, and I doubt if Quennell has, or he would not say such idiotic things) you will read how Massei goes on at length about why the nearly invisible striations were only visible to Stefanoni, because of the complicated viewing technique she adopted.

I won't ruin it for you. You will have to read Massei's motivation report for yourself to discover the technique Stefanoni used, a technique apparently unavailable to others. It marks Stefanoni as a forensic innovator.....

.... either that or you'll get a good laugh.

Peter Quennell is a moron.

Okay but in that photo I see grooves. At least 5 horizontal ones. But who cares? What's the big deal about grooves? Now if you ask me if I see DNA in those grooves, that's a whole different story. And saying that a few DNA molecules could get stuck in one of those without blood, well no. And I think that groove is many orders of magnitude larger than the double helix... I guess I don't understand the whole point of arguing about grooves. I must have missed something.

Why did Massei et. al. say he didn't see them? Unless that photo makes the knife look different than what Massei and his expert saw in court?
 
....................and!? They are...... ??? You do realize, don't you, the the LCN Stefanoni dealt with gave "too low" for a result the first number of times she tried. The measurement she used was the lowest setting, which cannot distinguish between "something" and "nothing."

...and yet this alleged 'nothing' coincidentally had the same genetic profile of the victim. Amazing!

And Sollecito expected it to be there! Another miracle!

Let's review. That knife was picked at random from Raffaele's, in front of Raffaele, precisely because it looked like it had been scrubbed excessively clean.

So, it wasn't 'random' then, was it?

A knife that matches the fatal wound, the only knife there, apparently recently scrubbed.

By 'random' you must mean 'the most likely murder weapon'.

The act of cleaning, if you follow the claims made by police, will first and foremost take DNA off an object, and only then blood and blood products (which can be detected presumptively by luminol).

Is that so? So DNA lodged in the plainly evident grooves will come out before the blood covering the grooves?

Amazing sort of cleaning that works from the inside out.

If DNA is found, then that means that it is less likely that blood was ever on that knife, because it is completely improbable that DNA would be left but blood cleaned off.

Nope.

We're not talking neck tissue here, we're talking the most small speck of DNA possible, that becomes destroyed when tested. It is almost impossible for all that neck-tissue to get on the knife, without blood getting on it, too. So there goes your theory.

You're not making any sense.

Raffaele had been told that Meredith's DNA had been found on the knife. They asked him to explain how it got on it. It never occurred to him that hte cops were lying to him about the protocols Stefanoni used - there was more than likely NOT Meredith's DNA there... so who is the liar?

Sollecito. Duh!

Peter Quennell had better get those pics to the Italian Supreme Court because no less than the expert appointed by the judge at the preliminary hearing didn't see them....

So one fellow claims not to see something and you extrapolate that no one can see them?

Peter Quennell on the other hand will say anything to suggest Sollecito and Knox are guilty. Quite like Judge Nencini, who has substituted a completely NEW theory as to how this crime happened.

Oh yes, I forgot, it's all a conspiracy... :jaw-dropp

Tell me this - why did Knox bring that knife (exhibit 36) to the cottage from Raffaele's?

The only people who know that aren't talking. Until Knox and Sollecito come clean there can only be speculation.
 
So, trying to solve a crime you can choose to test either who the material is from or what part of an unknown person it is from.

Seems like the obvious choice is to see whose DNA is on the blade.

"It was perhaps the only sound decision she made, she decided to test to see who 36B belonged to. That test said it was Meredith's."

Of course high resolution photographs of the blade reveal grooves any sighted person can see for themselves.

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage105/10556.pdf

There is a very real problem with not knowing what it is from. This is the crux of the concern with LCN results. Stephanoni was simply wrong in not splitting the sample to replicate the result. Because of drop out and drop in of alleles at low levels the profile may be artifactual. If she had been familiar with the methodology she would have split the sample to allow a second or even third run there was sufficient DNA to do this. Only if both runs give the same profile can it be accepted.

There are many articles describing the issues I quote from a couple.

"The use of DNA profiling has revolutionised the use of science in legal cases. DNA profiles produced from manufactured kits such as SGMPlus and Identifilier are routinely used as evidence in criminal cases. The kits are designed and validated by the manufacturer to operate within a specific range of amounts of DNA, typically 0.5 – 2.5ng (a nanogram is a 1,000th of a millionth of a gram). The kits work by copying (amplifying) the DNA molecules contained in a sample a number of times to produce enough to be detected in the analyser. The chemistry used by the kits is capable of amplifying just one molecule of DNA. By varying the conditions under which the kit is used some claim to be able to produce profiles from much lower amounts of starting (template) DNA. The general term for these techniques is variously referred to as Low Copy Number (LCN) or Low Template DNA (LTDNA) analysis, although some restrict the term LCN to the process used by the FSS Ltd which uses 34 cycles of amplification instead of the routine 28-cycle process recommended by the manufacturer. However, with very low numbers of template DNA molecules the process may fail to amplify the template. This leads to a number of problems in the interpretation of the resulting profiles. These are caused mostly by sampling, or stochastic, errors caused by the failure of the chemistry to work effectively with such low numbers leading to poor reproducibility of the results.

By way of analogy, an aeroplane, designed on the principles of flight, will fly and perform satisfactorily within the parameters of its design. As the speed lowers, there is no change to the aeroplane’s performance according to the laws of aerodynamics, but as the speed lowers further the aircraft will first suffer a loss of control and then simply stop flying (this is termed the stall speed). A graph of the flying performance of the aircraft will be continuous, but will show a precipitous fall-off at the stall speed. The stochastic threshold is the DNA profiling equivalent of this sudden change in performance. Profiling above the stochastic threshold produces consistent and reliable results. Below the stochastic threshold, reliability fails. It is disingenuous to equate the performance of ANY profiling technique above the stochastic threshold, to the performance below; that now appears to have been recognised scientifically and legally."

http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/news/low-copy-number-dna-and-the-forensic-institute.html

"As much as the DNA technologies created controversy and challenges when they were introduced, LCN DNA has produced its very own set of problems. Not least among these is the limited number of providers of this technology. In many cases they are working with old, degraded, or sub-microscopic volumes of material.

Many, if not all, of these old, or “cold”, cases occurred before DNA forced a rethink of the possibilities for contamination of evidence. Exhibits were collected with little regard for who was handling them or the possibilities of cross contamination from suspects to items via the investigating officer. Even the laboratory environment or procedures would not be designed to protect against the transfer of such low amounts of material. This was not negligence; it just didn’t consider the possibility of such traces becoming important.

In forensic science the fact to be established is that the DNA profile originated from the material recovered from a crime scene or a suspect, not the investigator, the laboratory, packaging, or analytical instruments. A “negative control” is set up by simply processing a “blank” sample that has no DNA. All being well, this control will not show any DNA. The presence of DNA in the negative control illustrates that there has been a source of contamination in the analytical method. It does not, of itself, show where that occurred, merely that it has. The tradition over many years has been, for very sound reasons, that anything found in the “negative control” invalidates the analysis.

There are now some who argue that this principle cannot be applied to LCN DNA analysis, because even in a tightly controlled analytical procedure a significant number of supposedly negative controls give a positive result, i.e. they indicate the presence of DNA.

The issue of course is that if it cannot be established that the DNA has been introduced during the analysis, how can any of the DNA found in the crime stains be shown NOT to have come from the procedure rather than the scene?

Lastly, the very small amounts of DNA and the vagaries of the method mean that it is frequently the case that replicate samples, that should produce the same results, don’t. The process gets around this difficulty by simply taking a vote of three replicates. DNA types found in two of the three are regarded as real and counted in the “consensus” profile. We use the consensus result as the basis of the statistical calculation of how rare a combination is in the population at large – in effect the probative value of the DNA evidence."

http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-2/1003857.aspx

Whatever is said on other sites DNA does float around there is adequate evidence published of secondary and tertiary transfer. In-laboratory contamination is a reality, the European standards for forensic science say...

"Environmental monitoring procedures should be written and records maintained. Monitoring can be done by swabbing instruments (centrifuges, vortex, ...), benches where exhibits are examined, door knobs and any other item relevant to the work done in the area where the monitoring is performed."

"Blank/negative controls will be used for every series of experiments.
Separate batches must be processed for reference and crime scene samples.
Intra and inter-batch contamination checks should be done."

http://www.enfsi.eu/sites/default/f...e_contamantion_prevention_final_-_v2010_0.pdf

The negative controls and environmental controls need to be negative, the court (and defence) need to know that they were done, and the results. It really is not adequate for Stephanoni to stand up in court and say there has been no contamination. How does she know? When did she last check the records. Were there written records? Were environmental controls done?
 
I'm giving this one more go because I'm tired of the complete lies about this case Peter Quennell propagates.

If the striations are so visible so that any sighted person can see it for themselves, why did not Judge Massei just say that in his motivations report?

In fact, if you read the thing (which you clearly have not, and I doubt if Quennell has, or he would not say such idiotic things) you will read how Massei goes on at length about why the nearly invisible striations were only visible to Stefanoni, because of the complicated viewing technique she adopted.

I won't ruin it for you. You will have to read Massei's motivation report for yourself to discover the technique Stefanoni used, a technique apparently unavailable to others. It marks Stefanoni as a forensic innovator.....

.... either that or you'll get a good laugh.

Peter Quennell is a moron.

The Italians will arrest you shortly:)
 
If the striations are so visible so that any sighted person can see it for themselves, why did not Judge Massei just say that in his motivations report?

In fact, if you read the thing (which you clearly have not, and I doubt if Quennell has, or he would not say such idiotic things) you will read how Massei goes on at length about why the nearly invisible striations were only visible to Stefanoni, because of the complicated viewing technique she adopted.

Wow - it really was complicated!

"[Dr. Stephanoni] specified that trace B had been taken from a point on the face of the blade; she added that no biological trace was visible to the naked eye. However [she added that‚ "under considerable lighting, a series of streaks were visible to the naked eye. These streaks ran parallel to the upper part of the blade, therefore, more or less, they were parallel to this side [of the blade] and towards the point they went downward and, therefore, they followed the shape of the point. These streaks, anomalies in the metal, were visible to the naked eye under intense lighting" (page 95 of the transcript). Still in regard to the visibility of these streaks, she specified that they were "visible under good lighting by changing the angle at which the light hit the blade, since obviously the blade reflects light and thus creates shadows, making imperfections visible"."

The forensic scientist held it up to the light! :eek:

Such an unheard of method! :boggled:

No one ever used such an unprecedented technique before! :jaw-dropp

In the past it was always the practice to examine evidence in the dark?
 
Can I interject a minute here on the subject of conspiracies. Contrary to the opinion of a new poster on the board, most of us think that there was no conspiracy to frame AK & RS. Many posters here have a pretty in-depth grasp of wrongful convictions more generally, and understand that the commonalities of these miscarriages of justice are also evident in this case (tunnel vision in the investigation, rush to judgement, false confession, sloppy forensic work, prosecution withholding evidence, dodgy eyewitnesses etc). None of this neccesitates a conscious conspiracy to frame - although it is possible that dubious methods were used to prop up the later investigation and prosecution. Once more with feeling: it is the prosecution and convicting judges' thinking that shares all the common elements with conspiracy thinking, NOT those who argue for innocence (with a few exceptions only).
 
...and yet this alleged 'nothing' coincidentally had the same genetic profile of the victim. Amazing!

And Sollecito expected it to be there! Another miracle!



So, it wasn't 'random' then, was it?

A knife that matches the fatal wound, the only knife there, apparently recently scrubbed.

By 'random' you must mean 'the most likely murder weapon'.



Is that so? So DNA lodged in the plainly evident grooves will come out before the blood covering the grooves?

Amazing sort of cleaning that works from the inside out.



Nope.



You're not making any sense.



Sollecito. Duh!



So one fellow claims not to see something and you extrapolate that no one can see them?



Oh yes, I forgot, it's all a conspiracy... :jaw-dropp



The only people who know that aren't talking. Until Knox and Sollecito come clean there can only be speculation.

So as to the last point... you too have given up on the rule of law. It is the job of the prosecution to allege things and it is the accuseds job to prove them wrong.

Other that that you are just making things up. My favourite is that you call the preliminary judge's expert "one fellow". Oh yes, then there is your theory that blood can shield DNA from a scrubbing.

Me thinks you make this up as you go. It may be a good idea to read the Massei report on these issues. At least he acknowledges the inherent issues before consistently siding with Stefanoni for no other reason than just because.

Please stop making up pseudo-forensics.
 
Wow - it really was complicated!

"[Dr. Stephanoni] specified that trace B had been taken from a point on the face of the blade; she added that no biological trace was visible to the naked eye. However [she added that‚ "under considerable lighting, a series of streaks were visible to the naked eye. These streaks ran parallel to the upper part of the blade, therefore, more or less, they were parallel to this side [of the blade] and towards the point they went downward and, therefore, they followed the shape of the point. These streaks, anomalies in the metal, were visible to the naked eye under intense lighting" (page 95 of the transcript). Still in regard to the visibility of these streaks, she specified that they were "visible under good lighting by changing the angle at which the light hit the blade, since obviously the blade reflects light and thus creates shadows, making imperfections visible"."

The forensic scientist held it up to the light! :eek:

Such an unheard of method! :boggled:

No one ever used such an unprecedented technique before! :jaw-dropp

In the past it was always the practice to examine evidence in the dark?

That is in essence what Massei is accusing the preliminary judge's expert of doing..... Stefanoni was the only technician who claimed to see and find what she saw and found. Mo one else did.
 
So, trying to solve a crime you can choose to test either who the material is from or what part of an unknown person it is from.

Seems like the obvious choice is to see whose DNA is on the blade.

"It was perhaps the only sound decision she made, she decided to test to see who 36B belonged to. That test said it was Meredith's."

Of course high resolution photographs of the blade reveal grooves any sighted person can see for themselves.

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage105/10556.pdf

And the conclusion of the independent experts who used science to look at the evidence, was as follows


Taking into account that none of the recommendations of the international scientific community relative to the treatment of Low Copy Number (LCN) samples were followed, we do not accept the conclusions regarding the certain attribution of the profile found on trace B (blade of knife) to the victim Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, since the genetic profile, as obtained, appears unreliable insofar as it is not supported by scientifically validated analysis;
 
Bill Williams said:
Tell me this - why did Knox bring that knife (exhibit 36) to the cottage from Raffaele's?
proudfootz said:
The only people who know that aren't talking. Until Knox and Sollecito come clean there can only be speculation.
:D. Aw, you're no fun at all! Why not speculate? Where's the harm? I bet you've thought about it. Nencini speculated and so did Mignini, Crini, Matteini, Massei and Micheli. It's allowed so go for it. Give us all a laugh.

Bill's question is a good one and your answer is a pathetic cop out. There are many more where that one came from and they are all perfectly valid and in need of answers. Why (never mind how) did they meticulously clean up in the bedroom but leave Raf's bloody footprint splat on the bathmat? Why was she buying cleaning products when they already had some? Why did they frame Rudy? Why did they, particularly she, stick around helping the cops? Why didn't they consult lawyers? Why did they hang around in the Piazza (btw. do we have a TOD in Nencini?)? Why were they so relaxed about the clean up they were still at it when the posties showed up? And on and on and on.

The Italian judges, whom you worship, speculate all the time. Last week it was a sex game gone wrong, this week it's about the money and next week it will be the crap again. One of many objections to the knife is that it makes no sense she would have taken it with her. Please offer a plausible reason why she might have done that.

Anticipating an unco-operative reply :D I'll tell you what you think. She was really wound up about the rent money which she had stolen. She thought
Meredith would be pissed about it so she thought 'I'll show the bitch', took up the kitchen knife and marched over with Raf in tow. They bumped into Rudy on the way and invited him along. As luck would have it, Rudy separately had his reasons for wanting to attack Meredith. Then they went in, argued about the money and slaughtered her. How am I doing?
 
Can I interject a minute here on the subject of conspiracies. Contrary to the opinion of a new poster on the board, most of us think that there was no conspiracy to frame AK & RS. Many posters here have a pretty in-depth grasp of wrongful convictions more generally, and understand that the commonalities of these miscarriages of justice are also evident in this case (tunnel vision in the investigation, rush to judgement, false confession, sloppy forensic work, prosecution withholding evidence, dodgy eyewitnesses etc). None of this neccesitates a conscious conspiracy to frame - although it is possible that dubious methods were used to prop up the later investigation and prosecution. Once more with feeling: it is the prosecution and convicting judges' thinking that shares all the common elements with conspiracy thinking, NOT those who argue for innocence (with a few exceptions only).
Of whom I am one.
 
So, trying to solve a crime you can choose to test either who the material is from or what part of an unknown person it is from.

Seems like the obvious choice is to see whose DNA is on the blade.

"It was perhaps the only sound decision she made, she decided to test to see who 36B belonged to. That test said it was Meredith's."

Of course high resolution photographs of the blade reveal grooves any sighted person can see for themselves.

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage105/10556.pdf

Because haemoglobin is far more resistant to cleaning than DNA. Because there are far more haemoglobin molecules in blood than DNA; one red blood cell contains about 270,000,000 haemoglobin molecules there are roughly a thousand red blood cells to one white blood cell containing a single copy of DNA. So you are 270 billion times more likely to have a haemoglobin molecule than a DNA profile. The tests for haemoglobin are of a similar order of sensitivity as tests for DNA. No haemoglobin (blood) was found anywhere on the knife. This makes it excessively unlikely any DNA found on the knife would relate to the murder even if it was used in the murder. Certainly the large amount of DNA of Knox on the handle must be unrelated to the murder even if the knife was used in the murder. I think that there is no evidence that the knife was used in the murder. Even accepting the alternate view, one can make no conclusions about who used it. Accepting it was used in the murder, the knife was Sollecito's and in his possession, that is it.

I think that the standards and problems around LCN DNA are well defined. The test on the blade of the knife met none of the standards. It was due to contamination. Because of allele drop out and in we cannot even be sure without replication that the contamination was from MK DNA. Once you are down to these levels of DNA the profile you get may not be a genuine reflection of the DNA tested, the sample needs to undergo replicate testing.
 
Why would anybody steal a mattress? Did they push it out through Filomena's window too?

Grinder got after me many months ago for making this claim of the second breakin, 18 months after Rudy's breakin through Filomena's window. I searched to re-find the cite, so imagine my glee at reading the La Stampa author reference it.

From memory, some town clowns wanted to break in to the cottage to embarrass Mignini by doing a Satanic rite inside. Mignini had rrefused to allow bars to be put on Filomena's window so as to preserve the crime scene, but also perhaps because he truly thought they weren't needed.

The town tomfoolers showed him, as did Channel 4, or one of those annoying BBC outlets, when the kid demo'ed the ease of the climb, even with the now present bars.

As to why the mattress, I will not speculate because Grinder will demand a cite. Damn him.
 
.
So it appears that we have Nencini completely ignoring the work of Conti and Vecchiotti, and also the Carabinieri forensics experts in order to involve the large kitchen knife divined from Raf's place. I can hardly wait to read his theory of how the knife got to the cottage. Legendary infamy awaits Nencini, Massei, Mignini, Commodi, Stefanoni, and many more. It is much too late for them to avoid it now. They deserve it, just like Benito deserves his.
.
 
Okay but in that photo I see grooves. At least 5 horizontal ones. But who cares? What's the big deal about grooves? Now if you ask me if I see DNA in those grooves, that's a whole different story. And saying that a few DNA molecules could get stuck in one of those without blood, well no. And I think that groove is many orders of magnitude larger than the double helix... I guess I don't understand the whole point of arguing about grooves. I must have missed something.

Why did Massei et. al. say he didn't see them? Unless that photo makes the knife look different than what Massei and his expert saw in court?

Great question. Further to that, why did the preliminary judge's appointed expert not see them?

And still further, why did Massei have to go to great lengths to describe how Stefanoni could only see them using her patented technique?

Yet there it is, a photo on Moronic Pete's site. Kind of makes you distrust Peter Quennell and the things he has on his site, don't it? Methinks that secretly he thinks Massei doesn't understand this case, so he has to do it for him.

Think on that one for a minute.
 
Last edited:
:D. Aw, you're no fun at all! Why not speculate? Where's the harm? I bet you've thought about it. Nencini speculated and so did Mignini, Crini, Matteini, Massei and Micheli. It's allowed so go for it. Give us all a laugh.

Bill's question is a good one and your answer is a pathetic cop out. There are many more where that one came from and they are all perfectly valid and in need of answers.

If nothing else it shows that this poster is not even up to speed on the problems the prosecution and the convicting judges knew they had.

Say what you want about Massei, but in theorizing no premeditation, Massei at least had the honesty to know he then had to account for how that knife even got to the cottage.

That the poster does not know this reveals his/her complete ignorance. The poster just makes up stuff.... things like that blood covers DNA in non-existent grooves in knives, and protects the DNA from scrubbing.

As you say, AL, there are many more traps in questions. You see, Massei most certainly did not say, "Only Knox and Sollecito know for sure." He knew that the allegation of the transport of that knife was directly connected to motive.

It's easier for those who say that the attack was premeditated. I have no clue what Nencini's report says on this, except to say that Nencini seems to agree with this illinformed poster - all I can tell from the reports is that Nencini says it is irrelevant why it was transported, the fact (for him) is that it was.

Nencini today just proved he's either more dishonest than Massei, or stupider than Massei. Massei at least had the cojones to recognize the difficulty the issue of the transport of the knife meant to motive.
 
The issue around proving contamination which the Italian courts have put the onus on the defence.

Other jurisdictions say that it is the responsibility of the prosecution and laboratory to take all reasonable precautions to prevent contamination, if they fail to do so then the possibility of contamination has to be accepted. If all reasonable precautions have been taken then the onus falls on defence.

If the defence need to prove contamination then they need access to the laboratory records. Stephanoni says no Kercher DNA was analysed for six days before the knife was tested. This does not exclude environmental contamination, so the results of environmental tests are needed. Since the Kercher DNA profile was LCN with the risk of allele drop in and out we need to know any other samples tested, and a record of the DNA of those who had access to the lab, DNA or a mix of DNA from persons with a similar DNA profile could give rise to a profile matching Kercher by allele drop in and out. The amount of DNA was too low to exclude a mixed source. Requiring the defence to prove contamination but denying them access to the records which might allow them to do so would appear to be a breach of natural justice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom