Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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carbonjam72 said:
If the idea of a 'frame-up', means that something special or different was done to convict Amanda and Raf, then we may be in agreement. I think they just got, 'the usual'.

My view is that what happened to Amanda and Raf appears to be unfortunately typical of the Italian system, and typically corrupt.

I don't think one can understand this case without understanding the Monster of Florence case, as it involves many of the same prosecutors, judges, bizarre irrational theories, planted evidence, and unreliable tramp witnesses (including a village idiot, a mentally retarded man, and a homeless prostitute who would turn tricks for a 25 cent glass of red wine).

The high profile Pacciani conviction in the Monster of Florence case was impossible on its face (see MOF/preston, Spezi). But that conviction saved Italian justice from the ignominy of not having solved the most horrifying series of murders that occurred over decades in and around florence.

.......... <sinister deletia> ...........

Cognitive dissonance implies competing realities. I don't believe Mignini has the capacity to recognize the wrongfulness of his own behavior. What's beyond shocking, is that neither apparently do the Italian judges or all of Italy seem to either.

The Italian system of justice, is the Monster of Italy. The immediate challenge, is to escape its grasp. The larger battle, is to tame the beast.
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Thank you for posting this. My view is that one of the reasons why former poster-here, Machiavelli, reacts so vigourously to accusations against Mingini, is that you are correct - in Mignini's mind, and in Machiavelli's myopic defence of him, the Monster of Florence case and the Kercher murder case are essentially one case.

It's because of what you say - not because Narducci and Kercher are connected.... except that they ARE connected by the looney-tunes upcountry banjo-playing prosecutors in Perugia.

Mignini himself said that his troubles "started with the Narducci case". These things are not so much frame-ups as paradigm shifts.... one has to immerse oneself in Mignini's world.

It's why Machiavelli (knowing the friction between the two worlds) defends Mignini for speaking at a "Satan and the law" conference. He shifts the blame for the horrible interrogations to Knox, saying that she has the ability to "choose not to sleep", and therefore be rested and relaxed ready to fool seasoned investigators at interrogation. He says that all of Seattle practises the Mafia code of Omertà to hide Knox's participation in an April Fools prank.

Machiavelli is not participating in a framing, he's participating in a worldview.
 
I performed an experiment at great cost to myself in money and health. I baked and ate an apple crisp last night. Using the preferred Granny Smith apples and only 1/3 of cup of butter but all of the sugar.

What I found interesting is that one needs about 15 minutes to prepare the apples and the crumble topping which becomes the crisp when properly made. One generally doesn't peel apples until needed as they will brown quickly.

If the girls made the pizza and ate and then made the crisp it could easily be an hour from the time that pizza was finished eating which would make that time about 7:45 with a pizza start time of 6:30. Obviously there are other possibilities but it does require 35 minutes of bake time and some time for prep and cooling.

Still waiting for those graphs on digestion and apples :p

Are there any books or articles that are written by Italians about their legal system that someone here knows about?
 
Grinder said:
I performed an experiment at great cost to myself in money and health. I baked and ate an apple crisp last night. Using the preferred Granny Smith apples and only 1/3 of cup of butter but all of the sugar.

What I found interesting is that one needs about 15 minutes to prepare the apples and the crumble topping which becomes the crisp when properly made. One generally doesn't peel apples until needed as they will brown quickly.

If the girls made the pizza and ate and then made the crisp it could easily be an hour from the time that pizza was finished eating which would make that time about 7:45 with a pizza start time of 6:30. Obviously there are other possibilities but it does require 35 minutes of bake time and some time for prep and cooling.

Still waiting for those graphs on digestion and apples :p

Are there any books or articles that are written by Italians about their legal system that someone here knows about?
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At what time did the apple crumble crisp pass into your duodenum? Your experiment is worthless without this information.
 
LOL. Motivations are out. We now have a second knife as a murder weapon. I guess they threw that one away just before they inadequately cleaned the kitchen knife and stashed it back in its drawer.

The altercation was about money, not poop, as it turns out. Thank heavens for that.

Let the buffoonery begin.

ETA: There were multiple attackers who totally restrained her. We know this because . . . of the 41 wounds the scarcity of wounds we're not sure, but it sounds good.
 
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buffoonery is not the half of it

Link "It noted that at least two knives were used to attack 21-year-old Meredith Kercher and that there were also finger imprints on her body, indicating she had been restrained -- ruling out the possibility that Guede was the only attacker." If there were fingerholds strong enough to cause bruising, then they should have been swabbed for DNA (unless the areas were covered in blood). DNA can get transferred in cases of attempted strangulation. "the court...statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room." So Guede's words, which were not subject to cross-examination, are the basis for yet another pseudo-motive? Whose DNA was found on Meredith's bag? How did Rudy know what Meredith supposedly said to Amanda in English? I will grant that Rudy knew a few English words, but that is not the same as being competent to follow a heated conversation.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Link "It noted that at least two knives were used to attack 21-year-old Meredith Kercher and that there were also finger imprints on her body, indicating she had been restrained -- ruling out the possibility that Guede was the only attacker." If there were fingerholds strong enough to cause bruising, then they should have been swabbed for DNA (unless the areas were covered in blood). DNA can get transferred in cases of attempted strangulation. "the court...statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room." So Guede's words, which were not subject to cross-examination, are the basis for yet another pseudo-motive? Whose DNA was found on Meredith's bag? How did Rudy know what Meredith supposedly said to Amanda in English? I will grant that Rudy knew a few English words, but that is not the same as being competent to follow a heated conversation.
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How do these Italian Judges continue to find Heroin Addict Sloth Bums and Loser/Lying Criminals like Rudy Guede, more credible than two college students?

Rudy Guede said it,so it must be true!

what fools
 
Only 377 pages! A model of economy. Of course there were two knives! Duh. The kitchen knife was too big for all the wounds ergo a second knife! So we have multiple attackers and we know who the others were because of … Toto, the DNA, Amanda's behaviour before and after … Quintavalle, the admissible but unusable confessions?

When will we have the translation? Tomorrow afternoon please.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
"the court...statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room." So Guede's words, which were not subject to cross-examination, are the basis for yet another pseudo-motive? Whose DNA was found on Meredith's bag? How did Rudy know what Meredith supposedly said to Amanda in English? I will grant that Rudy knew a few English words, but that is not the same as being competent to follow a heated conversation.
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This is good. Based on ECHR opinions that I have read, it's an obvious ECHR violation to convict someone on the basis such an out of court statement without confrontation or cross-examination. Frankly, my understanding is that this also violates the Italian constitution.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Link "It noted that at least two knives were used to attack 21-year-old Meredith Kercher and that there were also finger imprints on her body, indicating she had been restrained -- ruling out the possibility that Guede was the only attacker." If there were fingerholds strong enough to cause bruising, then they should have been swabbed for DNA (unless the areas were covered in blood). DNA can get transferred in cases of attempted strangulation. "the court...statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room." So Guede's words, which were not subject to cross-examination, are the basis for yet another pseudo-motive? Whose DNA was found on Meredith's bag? How did Rudy know what Meredith supposedly said to Amanda in English? I will grant that Rudy knew a few English words, but that is not the same as being competent to follow a heated conversation.
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The implication of taking Guede's testimony on this point, that he overheard an argument over money between the girls, is that he supposedly overheard this conversation while on the toilet having 'bad kabob' issues.

So to accept Guede's word of how and when he heard the argument between Amanda and Meredith, implies by necessity that the court accepts that Guede's version of how he came to be in the apartment to over hear that conversation is also correct, and therefore, Guede's claim that any sexual contact was consensual.

Therefore, the finding that Guede's motive for murder was 'sexual', is an irreconcilable, internal logical contradiction in Nencini's judgement.
 
anglolawyer said:
Only 377 pages! A model of economy. Of course there were two knives! Duh. The kitchen knife was too big for all the wounds ergo a second knife! So we have multiple attackers and we know who the others were because of … Toto, the DNA, Amanda's behaviour before and after … Quintavalle, the admissible but unusable confessions?

When will we have the translation? Tomorrow afternoon please.
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You don't want to leave out the main eye-witness, Rudy Guede...Mr. Credible himself, even the Supreme Court and Judge Nencini bow to Rudy's holy-words of purity and truth. (I think I'll puke now)

The court said there was ample evidence of a bad relationship between the two roommates, despite Knox's attempts to play down differences in court, and cited statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room.
 
carbonjam72 said:
The implication of taking Guede's testimony on this point, that he overheard an argument over money between the girls, is that he supposedly overheard this conversation while on the toilet having 'bad kabob' issues.

So to accept Guede's word of how and when he heard the argument between Amanda and Meredith, implies by necessity that the court accepts that Guede's version of how he came to be in the apartment to over hear that conversation is also correct, and therefore, Guede's claim that any sexual contact was consensual.

Therefore, the finding that Guede's motive for murder was 'sexual', is an irreconcilable, internal logical contradiction in Nencini's judgement.
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Good point. It turns out Rudy was innocent all along. A terrible mistake has been made.
 
a very compressed timeline

link "The explanation added that the group had gathered to use drugs before the 2007 murder." And the evidence for this is what? There are no phone calls or emails that indicate communication with Guede. There is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drug besides cannabis. And how was all of this supposed to happen between 9:30 and 10 PM? This is pure conjecture, and any system which allows this sort of "reasoning" does not deserve the slightest bit of esteem.
 
carbonjam72 said:
The implication of taking Guede's testimony on this point, that he overheard an argument over money between the girls, is that he supposedly overheard this conversation while on the toilet having 'bad kabob' issues.

So to accept Guede's word of how and when he heard the argument between Amanda and Meredith, implies by necessity that the court accepts that Guede's version of how he came to be in the apartment to over hear that conversation is also correct, and therefore, Guede's claim that any sexual contact was consensual.

Therefore, the finding that Guede's motive for murder was 'sexual', is an irreconcilable, internal logical contradiction in Nencini's judgement.
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But Guede said that Amanda wasn't there.

And, what about the semen? Did that pop out of Meredith's purse???

So confusing.
 
Assuming that it was a fight over money that got out of hand, in the US that would be second degree murder (or whatever the state equivalent is)
That is not the equivalent of first degree murder and rape.
I read "We will find them guilty" and then write something vague after the fact.
Otherwise, they should have gotten something like 10 years.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
link "The explanation added that the group had gathered to use drugs before the 2007 murder." And the evidence for this is what? There are no phone calls or emails that indicate communication with Guede. There is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drug besides cannabis. And how was all of this supposed to happen between 9:30 and 10 PM? This is pure conjecture, and any system which allows this sort of "reasoning" does not deserve the slightest bit of esteem.
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Aha! Guede went over to Raffaele's place before the murder and watched Naruto. Why didn't we ever think of that?
 
Desert Fox said:
Assuming that it was a fight over money that got out of hand, in the US that would be second degree murder (or whatever the state equivalent is)
That is not the equivalent of first degree murder and rape.
I read "We will find them guilty" and then write something vague after the fact.
Otherwise, they should have gotten something like 10 years.
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So it's not a sex-game gone wrong? Does this mean that the ISC will overturn Nencini because he failed to properly investigate THAT motive?
 
So.... how many times does Italy get to redefine this crime?

First it is a ritual killing associated with Hallowe'en. Then it's a sex game gone wrong. Then it is a brief "choice for evil". Then it is no motive at all, the "just because" motive.

Crini offered the pooh in the toilet motive. Now Nencini has gone with an argument over money motive, the sole source for that one is Guede himself.

How many times does Italy get to redefine this. To heck with double jeopardy, this is now septuple jeopardy. How does one defend oneself against the revolving door set of allegations?
 
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