Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh it's just so very Italian. Etc.


Meanwhile the screaming headline in todays Huffington Post:

STUDY: 1 IN 25 DEATH ROW INMATES LIKELY INNOCENT

"Shocking Number Of Innocent People Sentenced To Death, Study Finds"

"“The great majority of innocent people who are sentenced to death are never identified and freed," said Samuel Gross, lead author of the study and a University of Michigan Law School professor, in a statement.

Ah Italy... yes indeed.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html

Yes, it's good that in the USA there are people identifying and making public the errors of the system.

Better than pretending that everything is fine when you have the worst track record (by far) of human rights violations in all western europe.
 
Anglolawyer

Apologies, I didn't address my previous post to you.

Do you know how much time the defence teams are given to respond to the Florence motivations?
 
Guilty to both charges. I have seen paw-sized rings leading down (or up) the steps to the boys' place. They were closely filmed. Surely I am not the only one. I assumed this was made the same way but you are right - Diocletus just jettisoned it onto the thread without explanation so maybe it's not even from the crime scene.

I have no idea why anyone is starting from the presumption that these rings are from a cat. Yes, Steffi's report claims that before the defendants were arrested and could have consultants at the lab to observe testing, she performed some sort of test, and all of these TMB-positive, human-DNA-positive marks turned out to actually be cat's blood.

But, she lied about the several hundred pictograms, she lied about the TMB testing on the luminol, her report is riddled with errors, she's a slob, and she has never produced any sort of real documentation of the cat's blood findings. So, why would anyone believe her? She possibly, indeed probably, is either lying or mistaken.

Anyway, the pic I posted is not from the crime scene, but the point is that it looks a lot like the rings on the steps. It's one way that the rings could have been made. I have no idea why anyone would think that a cat's paw print would create those rings.
 
Oh it's just so very Italian. Etc.


Meanwhile the screaming headline in todays Huffington Post:

STUDY: 1 IN 25 DEATH ROW INMATES LIKELY INNOCENT

"Shocking Number Of Innocent People Sentenced To Death, Study Finds"

"“The great majority of innocent people who are sentenced to death are never identified and freed," said Samuel Gross, lead author of the study and a University of Michigan Law School professor, in a statement.

Ah Italy... yes indeed.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html


I've done my own study similar to this, and have discovered that 24 out of 25 Italian judges are imbeciles.

Also, 23 out of 25 Italian prosecutors are psychopaths.

10 out of 25 Italian lab technicians are liars.
 
Last edited:
On the contrary, it is the most successful frame up of all time given that two innocent people are (probably) about to have their murder convictions finally confirmed by the ISC. This is Italy. They don't do science in court. Rather, it's a pantomime in which everything is suffused in a miasma of poisonous ad hominem, no one can ever be accused of lying (even when they plainly are), 'compatible' = proof, possible = probable, inconvenient testimony can be selectively spliced away, findings made somewhere else count and the Supreme Court blatantly subverts the system by substituting its own findings of fact for the trial court's.

In that system what Stefanoni did was just fine. Try squaring the bra clasp panto with mere incompetence. Explain how a science officer happened to store this key item in an environment that destroyed its usefulness and (since you can't) note that nobody has taken her to task over this or any other of the many lapses and lies that render her work useless.

Of course it was a frame job. It can't be anything else. The fact it's staring you in the face but you still can't see it shows how well-judged it was. Someone once said that any fool can build a bridge that won't fall down. The trick is to build one that only just won't. So far, their bridge has withstood everything thrown at it.

Doctors bury their mistakes. Judges put their mistakes in jail. The only consistent people are the lawyers. Lawyers send their mistakes a bill, just like they do their successes.

With all due... this is not the description of a "frame up". Building a bridge that will just stay up, does not describe one.

In Canada's well known wrongful convictions, there have been so many that they can pull out trends as to why, the factors are ones that are also systemic, rather than wilful ignoring of rules or planting of evidence. Even though the result is the same, investigative myopia is not part of a wilful frame-up.

Even with the Kish case, Justice Nordheimer is completely blind to the fact that he's just had to completely simplify a complex street melee into a fight involving only four people. The Ontario Court of Appeal is not "framing" anyone when they say that out of the four reasons for conviction Nordheimer used to convict, the defence lawyers addressed exactly none of them.

You're describing a broken system, not a frame up. Me, I'm offering a more humble analysis... that people like Judge Massei are exposed in the best part of the Italian system - the motivations reports.

Massei actually has to put it into black and white that Stefanoni actually DID face an insurmountable hurdle with 36b, that four tests needed to be done to provide the court with, gee... what's that word, it was around here somewhere?... oh yes, "evidence".

Two tests each for what the substance was, and two tests each to find out who it belonged to. Is it a "frame-up that Massei then justifies 36b as "evidence" when there was only enough minuscule amount to do one destructive test?

Is it a frame-up that he writes it and the PMF bunch do us all a favour and translate it so that English speakers can read about it? Is it a frame-up when Stefanoni says (incredibly) that her lab has never had a case of contamination, and Massei says, "Well she said it, that's good enough for me"? (How one can write that without smiling.... now THAT would be a frame-up!)

Accountants have never made an error of addition. Lawyers have never applied the wrong estate law to a will. Airplane refuelers have never put the wrong amount of aviation gas into an airplane. Scientific Police have never had an issue with contamination. 36b is evidence because, well....... ah, er, because an upcountry judge says so.

Seismologists can be charged with not predicting an earthquake.... there's something else, my hairy friend, going on here than a frame-up.
 
Last edited:
I think that this is likely to represent an in-laboratory contamination issue. It is possible that there was some physical contamination of the knife elsewhere, but I think in-laboratory contamination more likely. For Stephanoni I think this was a happy accident. She followed a non-standard protocol which involved more processing of the sample than usual, and use of a machine that was not usually used. I think this increased the risks of contamination. She did this in a laboratory not set up for dealing with low copy number DNA, so did not have the processes in place to prevent AND detect contamination by trace amounts of DNA. The latter is an important issue, the negative controls and laboratory environment swabs need to have been run to detect contamination at the level of DNA found in the sample from the knife blade.

There is a whistle blowing letter (anonymous) that implies that this had been done before. I think the lab utilised contamination to get results without realising that was what was happening.
There is an interesting comment from the cassazione report suggesting for the bra strap that since the only DNA of Sollecito found in the flat was on a cigarette mixed with Knox DNA then contamination of the bra hook would be more believable if both Knox and Sollecito DNA was present! I can see how that would play. Sadly this shows that they fail to understand that there is not mixed DNA, that remains mixed, but separate DNA of both Sollecito and Knox on the same item. It also indicates that they fail to understand this was only on tested items, and does not exclude there being DNA of Sollecito elsewhere. There are several illogical statements in this ruling, which since the argument of the court was on the logicality of the appeal court seems a bit hypocritical.

Any chance you can point to that 'whistle blowing letter'?

I'm convinced the lab results are 'too good to be true', on the two pieces of evidence they need to ensnare, one for Raf and one for Amanda.

The 'luck of the finds' seems too improbable. The knife has no likelihood of connection to the crime when selected, and the bra clasp is found 6 weeks later.

They must know they're gaming the lab results, the only question is how they're doing it.

Maybe its hard for publicly known scientific experts to comment on this possibility, by virtue of Italy's calumnia laws, and the prosecution's demonstrated penchant for using them to silence critics.
 
DNA and blood; the CSC and the storage of the clasp

The presence of DNA is not a confirmatory test for human blood. However, if blood landed on DNA previously deposited, one might see two profiles, not just one (a substrate control might help). There may not be a confirmatory test for feline blood (I am unaware of one), but there are confirmatory tests for primate blood.

With respect to the storage of the bra clasp, the fact that the Court of Supreme Cassation failed to even mention this probably deliberate act is a silence that shouts.
 
I have no idea why anyone is starting from the presumption that these rings are from a cat.


Maybe it is because someone testified that they thought the tracks were from the cat that cut it's paw on the broken glass from the window they smashed to get into the downstairs apartment after following the trail of blood down the steps to that door.
 
open sand, insert head

If I were to ask one more question, do you regard it as a scientific certainty, that as that knife lay quietly in Raffaele's drawer, there was no Meredith dna present?
I am sorry to be pedantic, but it does seem important.
The existence of a DNA profile rarely if ever gives information on the time or manner of its deposition. Amanda could have hugged Meredith, then went to Sollecito's and used the knife. I don't think that this possibility is as likely as the others, but I can't rule it out. What is a near certainty is that if a knife were used in a stabbing there would be lots of blood, and cleaning the blood away would also clean the DNA away. Anyone who claims otherwise is resolutely putting his or her head in the sand.
 
Doctors bury their mistakes. Judges put their mistakes in jail. The only consistent people are the lawyers. Lawyers send their mistakes a bill, just like they do their successes.

With all due... this is not the description of a "frame up". Building a bridge that will just stay up, does not describe one.

In Canada's well known wrongful convictions, there have been so many that they can pull out trends as to why, the factors are ones that are also systemic, rather than wilful ignoring of rules or planting of evidence. Even though the result is the same, investigative myopia is not part of a wilful frame-up.

Even with the Kish case, Justice Nordheimer is completely blind to the fact that he's just had to completely simplify a complex street melee into a fight involving only four people. The Ontario Court of Appeal is not "framing" anyone when they say that out of the four reasons for conviction Nordheimer used to convict, the defence lawyers addressed exactly none of them.

You're describing a broken system, not a frame up. Me, I'm offering a more humble analysis... that people like Judge Massei are exposed in the best part of the Italian system - the motivations reports.

Massei actually has to put it into black and white that Stefanoni actually DID face an insurmountable hurdle with 36b, that four tests needed to be done to provide the court with, gee... what's that word, it was around here somewhere?... oh yes, "evidence".

Two tests each for what the substance was, and two tests each to find out who it belonged to. Is it a "frame-up that Massei then justifies 36b as "evidence" when there was only enough minuscule amount to do one destructive test?

Is it a frame-up that he writes it and the PMF bunch do us all a favour and translate it so that English speakers can read about it? Is it a frame-up when Stefanoni says (incredibly) that her lab has never had a case of contamination, and Massei says, "Well she said it, that's good enough for me"? (How one can write that without smiling.... now THAT would be a frame-up!)

Accountants have never made an error of addition. Lawyers have never applied the wrong estate law to a will. Airplane refuelers have never put the wrong amount of aviation gas into an airplane. Scientific Police have never had an issue with contamination. 36b is evidence because, well....... ah, er, because an upcountry judge says so.

Seismologists can be charged with not predicting an earthquake.... there's something else, my hairy friend, going on here than a frame-up.

No there is not. Just because it is true that wrongful convictions can happen without any conscious framing that does not mean no such convictions ever result from deliberate impropriety. In the Toronto case, there may in fact have been impropriety but it is not necessary to analyse that case as not being properly made out to work out what, if anything, it was.

In our case, there was deliberate fraud starting, at the latest, on 6th November with the selection of the knife - unless you seriously think it was picked out because it looked nice and shiny or as the result of the brilliant intuition of an undiscovered detective genius living out a life of obscurity in a small, provincial Italian town. Your objection that the evidence was incompetently fabricated, if at all, ignores the fact that it worked and that Stef is not the one facing jail.

There are so many indicators of fraud that you would need a dozen of Randy's posts to enumerate them all. I bet no Italian observer doubts it. They know how things work and now, as a result of squinting and looking very closely, so do we. Or so do most of us.
 
I have no idea why anyone is starting from the presumption that these rings are from a cat. Yes, Steffi's report claims that before the defendants were arrested and could have consultants at the lab to observe testing, she performed some sort of test, and all of these TMB-positive, human-DNA-positive marks turned out to actually be cat's blood.

But, she lied about the several hundred pictograms, she lied about the TMB testing on the luminol, her report is riddled with errors, she's a slob, and she has never produced any sort of real documentation of the cat's blood findings. So, why would anyone believe her? She possibly, indeed probably, is either lying or mistaken.

Anyway, the pic I posted is not from the crime scene, but the point is that it looks a lot like the rings on the steps. It's one way that the rings could have been made. I have no idea why anyone would think that a cat's paw print would create those rings.

Then they must have been made by aliens. Alternatively, the cat had hooves and had just been shoed by the furrier (joke alert - farrier/furrier).
 
Maybe it is because someone testified that they thought the tracks were from the cat that cut it's paw on the broken glass from the window they smashed to get into the downstairs apartment after following the trail of blood down the steps to that door.

And then they marked all of these rings as exhibits and rushed them off to Rome to analyze them. LOL. Another steffi lie.
 
No there is not. Just because it is true that wrongful convictions can happen without any conscious framing that does not mean no such convictions ever result from deliberate impropriety. In the Toronto case, there may in fact have been impropriety but it is not necessary to analyse that case as not being properly made out to work out what, if anything, it was.

In our case, there was deliberate fraud starting, at the latest, on 6th November with the selection of the knife - unless you seriously think it was picked out because it looked nice and shiny or as the result of the brilliant intuition of an undiscovered detective genius living out a life of obscurity in a small, provincial Italian town. Your objection that the evidence was incompetently fabricated, if at all, ignores the fact that it worked and that Stef is not the one facing jail.

There are so many indicators of fraud that you would need a dozen of Randy's posts to enumerate them all. I bet no Italian observer doubts it. They know how things work and now, as a result of squinting and looking very closely, so do we. Or so do most of us.
Aught-owe..... it is the "No there is not" retort! I surrender!

For me it is helpful to spread the use of things over time. The picking of the knife was, at the time it was picked, not meant as gathering of evidence. It was meant to lean on Sollecito - remember, he said they took him shoeless back to his apartment after his own (unrecorded) interrogation. I think it was so that he'd witness Chiacchiera making the pronouncement of, "this will do", to show the pampered southern-boy that they were not fooling around, that they were going to get Amanda, even if they had to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, too.

What they never counted on, and why that knife was never initially intended to make it to court, was they were actually going to have to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, too. Raffaele called their bluff. The decision to frame Raffaele, in earnest, came with the Dec 18 return to the cottage. That was when they realized that if they were going to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, they were going to have to have something to throw. (THAT Dec 18 thingy was the clumsiest frame-up in the history of frame-ups, because Stefanoni did us all the courtesy of actually filming the collection!)

After saying at trial that she always changed her gloves after each evidence collection, in response to her saying she could neither confirm nor deny that she herself at contaminated the bra-hooks, the film shows her replacing the bra-hooks on the floor, photographing it, bagging it, and THEN without changing gloves go on to handle other Meredith-evidence.....

That is incompetence and lying after-the-fact.... not a before the fact farming.

To say that there was anything consciously wilful about the period Nov 2 to Dec 18, assumes some sort of actual systematic thought.

They were not framing - they were caught in myopia and making it up as they went.
 
Last edited:
knaves or fools

The loss of metadata on Raffaele's computer could either be from incompetence or from a deliberate attempt to frame. Never ascribe to malice....but I get tired of typing that when it comes to Perugia's finest.
 
Aught-owe..... it is the "No there is not" retort! I surrender!

For me it is helpful to spread the use of things over time. The picking of the knife was, at the time it was picked, not meant as gathering of evidence. It was meant to lean on Sollecito - remember, he said they took him shoeless back to his apartment after his own (unrecorded) interrogation. I think it was so that he'd witness Chiacchiera making the pronouncement of, "this will do", to show the pampered southern-boy that they were not fooling around, that they were going to get Amanda, even if they had to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, too.

What they never counted on, and why that knife was never initially intended to make it to court, was they were actually going to have to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, too. Raffaele called their bluff. The decision to frame Raffaele, in earnest, came with the Dec 18 return to the cottage. That was when they realized that if they were going to throw the whole shooting match at Raffaele, they were going to have to have something to throw. (THAT Dec 18 thingy was the clumsiest frame-up in the history of frame-ups, because Stefanoni did us all the courtesy of actually filming the collection!)

After saying at trial that she always changed her gloves after each evidence collection, in response to her saying she could neither confirm nor deny that she herself at contaminated the bra-hooks, the film shows her replacing the bra-hooks on the floor, photographing it, bagging it, and THEN without changing gloves go on to handle other Meredith-evidence.....

That is incompetence and lying after-the-fact.... not a before the fact farming.

To say that there was anything consciously wilful about the period Nov 2 to Dec 18, assumes some sort of actual systematic thought.

They were not framing - they were caught in myopia and making it up as they went.
:confused:
 
The Illogic of Monsters

Doctors bury their mistakes. Judges put their mistakes in jail. The only consistent people are the lawyers. Lawyers send their mistakes a bill, just like they do their successes.

With all due... this is not the description of a "frame up". Building a bridge that will just stay up, does not describe one.

In Canada's well known wrongful convictions, there have been so many that they can pull out trends as to why, the factors are ones that are also systemic, rather than wilful ignoring of rules or planting of evidence. Even though the result is the same, investigative myopia is not part of a wilful frame-up.

Even with the Kish case, Justice Nordheimer is completely blind to the fact that he's just had to completely simplify a complex street melee into a fight involving only four people. The Ontario Court of Appeal is not "framing" anyone when they say that out of the four reasons for conviction Nordheimer used to convict, the defence lawyers addressed exactly none of them.

You're describing a broken system, not a frame up. Me, I'm offering a more humble analysis... that people like Judge Massei are exposed in the best part of the Italian system - the motivations reports.

Massei actually has to put it into black and white that Stefanoni actually DID face an insurmountable hurdle with 36b, that four tests needed to be done to provide the court with, gee... what's that word, it was around here somewhere?... oh yes, "evidence".

Two tests each for what the substance was, and two tests each to find out who it belonged to. Is it a "frame-up that Massei then justifies 36b as "evidence" when there was only enough minuscule amount to do one destructive test?

Is it a frame-up that he writes it and the PMF bunch do us all a favour and translate it so that English speakers can read about it? Is it a frame-up when Stefanoni says (incredibly) that her lab has never had a case of contamination, and Massei says, "Well she said it, that's good enough for me"? (How one can write that without smiling.... now THAT would be a frame-up!)

Accountants have never made an error of addition. Lawyers have never applied the wrong estate law to a will. Airplane refuelers have never put the wrong amount of aviation gas into an airplane. Scientific Police have never had an issue with contamination. 36b is evidence because, well....... ah, er, because an upcountry judge says so.

Seismologists can be charged with not predicting an earthquake.... there's something else, my hairy friend, going on here than a frame-up.

If the idea of a 'frame-up', means that something special or different was done to convict Amanda and Raf, then we may be in agreement. I think they just got, 'the usual'.

My view is that what happened to Amanda and Raf appears to be unfortunately typical of the Italian system, and typically corrupt.

I don't think one can understand this case without understanding the Monster of Florence case, as it involves many of the same prosecutors, judges, bizarre irrational theories, planted evidence, and unreliable tramp witnesses (including a village idiot, a mentally retarded man, and a homeless prostitute who would turn tricks for a 25 cent glass of red wine).

The high profile Pacciani conviction in the Monster of Florence case was impossible on its face (see MOF/preston, Spezi). But that conviction saved Italian justice from the ignominy of not having solved the most horrifying series of murders that occurred over decades in and around florence.

At Pacciani's appeal, the prosecutor actually took the defendant's side and argued for Pacciani's acquittal. It was clear the acquittal would be granted. And the day before the acquittal verdict was announced, Guitiarri the new MOF inspector, announced charges against Vanni and Lotti (the 'picknicking friends' of Pacciani) who would subsequently be convicted as Pacciani's accomplices in the MOF cases. (Guitiarri was the same inspector that Mignini was convicted with for abuse of office.)

Despite the overwhelming certainty that the Pacciani acquittal was correct, the Italian Supreme Court reversed the acquittal and sent it back for retrial - just as has happened with Amanda and Raf.

Pacciani died within days before his retrial was to commence. (For Amand and Raf, that would correlate to the 'Nencini trial'). Pacciani was a hateful figure, a domestic abuser who raped his daughters. Amanda and Raf couldn't be further from him as people. But the underlying motivation behind their prosecutions, convictions, acquittals, and ISC reversals, is identical. Italy and the prosecutors need bodies in jail, to provide the appearance of justice being done.

There never was any real case against Amanda & Raf, as had been thoroughly exposed in the Hellman Appeal. Yet the Italian Supreme Court reversed it, based on nothing but sophistry. And we're all sitting around debating their "reasoning". Just as we'll all debate Nencini's "motivations".

It's not reasonable to assume that anything done or said in the prosecution and convictions of Amanda and Raf is done in good faith.

The Italian justice system is sick and rotten through and through. There are undoubtedly honest participants, like Hellman, and justice while grindingly slow, can be glimpsed from time to time.

But to suggest the police, and the labs, and the prosecutors, and civil attorneys, and even the judges themselves, are not fully aware they are railroading two innocent people in Amanda and Raf, is beyond credulity, and nothing but willful blindness.

The MOF prosecutors that stood behind the theory of a conspiracy of masonic satanic ritual sexual murders, received high profile and important career promotions. Mignini pursued that same theory, thus attaching himself to the MOF case, on the information provided by the psychic medium Gabriella Carlizzi, who claimed to have special knowledge of satanic cults, receiving 'illumination' from a dead priest and Vatican exorcist - who presumably would have an advantage in satanic matters.

When journalist Spezi declined to accept Carlizzi's information, she turned to Mignini who was interested. When Spezi continued to publicly question Mignini's MOF investigation, Mignini accused Spezi of being the Monster of Florence, and put him in jail. Spezi came very close to spending years in prison, just like Amanda and Raf. Spezi's co-author Preston was instrumental in coordinating public opinion and getting Spezi released, but it took extraordinary courage from the press to break the stranglehold of the prosecutors.

In this case, Mignini originally claimed that Meredith Kercher had fallen victim to the same masonic satanic cults and practices. The claim in this case supports his previous claims of satanic conspiracies in the MOF case.

Mignini is undoubtedly swayed by his own satanic fantasies. But he also has seen prosecutors before him benefit from career promotions, from pursuing the same theories in the same case. He knows what sells newspapers in Italy, he knows how to pitch the story to the press; and so, the press to the public, the public to the judges, and the judges to history. Mignini is nothing but a sadistic madman who lusts for power.

At the time of the Kercher murder, Mignini was under indictment for abuse of office. He had trials in the MOF case falling apart. And he had Amanda as a life-raft, pushing her under the water to stay afloat. In Mignini's mind, whose life is more important? The Upright and Correct Public Minister of Perugia Itlay, or the peasant whore from Seattle?

Cognitive dissonance implies competing realities. I don't believe Mignini has the capacity to recognize the wrongfulness of his own behavior. What's beyond shocking, is that neither apparently do the Italian judges or all of Italy seem to either.

The Italian system of justice, is the Monster of Italy. The immediate challenge, is to escape its grasp. The larger battle, is to tame the beast.
 
The loss of metadata on Raffaele's computer could either be from incompetence or from a deliberate attempt to frame. Never ascribe to malice....but I get tired of typing that when it comes to Perugia's finest.

They are the best cops in the world, except when the screw up and then it's just "aw shucks."
 

Consistency is the hobgoblin.... you know the rest.

Ok, ok, poor choice of words. They were locked into a myopic scenario, and offered Raffaele the choice - did he want to go along for the ride or not.

That's the best I can do at such an early hour...... me, I thought you'd get distracted at being called "hairy".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom