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Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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IanS,

While I appreciate your earnestness, I do not need a copy of any book to be aware of the social structure of that subfield.

My studies are 15th c BCE to 1st c BCE Middle East anthropology.
I have to read plenty of work I find questionable, and consequently you might have seen my bickering above regarding theologians.

This awareness does not alter the paradox I mentioned to Eight bits, nor am I frustrated by the paradox.



I don't know what paradox you have been discussing with eight_bits, but what is highlighted in Avalos’s book, is why this is by no means the usual field of objective neutral academic study where one might reasonably make an appeal to academic authority (as we might very reasonably do in science, for example).

And yet, almost the entire HJ defence in these thread boils down to precisely that appeal to authority. Where it has been repeatedly said here things like "if you disagree, then publish your papers showing all these "historians" are wrong" , and "this is an ad hominem & disgusting slur against a whole class of expert "historians" ", or "get educated", or "tell the worlds historians that" etc etc. Well the point is - that very dismissive appeal to authority is seriously misplaced in this particular subject of bible studies.

But I believe you were saying that we should value the field of bible studies and what bible scholars say, not because of whatever importance it has to the lives of millions of people today in the continued influence of Christian biblical preaching and bible belief, but instead for it's own intrinsic value as a field of academic research, yes? Well I am pointing out to you that according to Avalos (and Carrier, and others), this is actually not a field worthy of that sort of respect as research for it's own sake, i.e. not as you might validly claim in science where few if any people immediately appreciate why it is a good thing that we fund real experts to study something like String Theory or Space Research, even though 99.999% of the population may fail to see any obvious benefits except knowledge for it's own sake. Because what it being said about bible studies and related fields, is that unlike other academic subjects, this particular field is not neutral or objective, and has a long history of actually being closely connected with support for religious belief in the Christian Church and within Christian theology ... according to Avalos, that historic connection remains much closer than those outside the field might ever suspect of a university field.

Similarly, Richard Carrier has of course written a book (though not one I would recommend) explaining at length why the methods used by bible scholars are flawed or even fallacious, and why their conclusions are nowhere near as strongly justified as they claim (Proving History, Richard Carrier, Prometheus Books, 2012).

And if you think about it, this is really the crux of the issue in all sceptic books on the historicity of Jesus. That is - almost by definition, sceptic authors such as Wells, Price, Doherty, Ellegard, and all earlier writers, are seriously distrusting of the so-called "scholarship" being used by those within bible-studies who claim their evidence (actually, only just the bible) and their methods (such as "argument from embarrassment", "argument from silence", "least distinctiveness", "higher criticism", "multiple attestation" etc.) are sound and reliable.

IOW - the appeal to authority here is frankly very shaky indeed, if not entirely misplaced. If you disbelieve a scientist when he tells you that (say) evolution is true, then he will give you an absolute mountain of undeniable experimental and theoretical/calculated evidence to support his conclusions. But if you ask Bart Ehrman or any bible scholar to give their evidence for Jesus, then all they can offer is to say such things as they believe the bible when it says Paul met James. And that is just nowhere near good enough. And nor is that anywhere a good enough justification for saying we should value bible-studies research of this sort for it’s own internal merits and not care so much about the impact it’s possibly fallacious claims and it’s historic association with the church, religion and theology, has quite directly on the lives of everyone on the planet today.
 
I don't know what paradox you have been discussing with eight_bits, but what is highlighted in Avalos’s book, is why this is by no means the usual field of objective neutral academic study where one might reasonably make an appeal to academic authority (as we might very reasonably do in science, for example).

And yet, almost the entire HJ defence in these thread boils down to precisely that appeal to authority. Where it has been repeatedly said here things like "if you disagree, then publish your papers showing all these "historians" are wrong" , and "this is an ad hominem & disgusting slur against a whole class of expert "historians" ", or "get educated", or "tell the worlds historians that" etc etc. Well the point is - that very dismissive appeal to authority is seriously misplaced in this particular subject of bible studies.

But I believe you were saying that we should value the field of bible studies and what bible scholars say, not because of whatever importance it has to the lives of millions of people today in the continued influence of Christian biblical preaching and bible belief, but instead for it's own intrinsic value as a field of academic research, yes? Well I am pointing out to you that according to Avalos (and Carrier, and others), this is actually not a field worthy of that sort of respect as research for it's own sake, i.e. not as you might validly claim in science where few if any people immediately appreciate why it is a good thing that we fund real experts to study something like String Theory or Space Research, even though 99.999% of the population may fail to see any obvious benefits except knowledge for it's own sake. Because what it being said about bible studies and related fields, is that unlike other academic subjects, this particular field is not neutral or objective, and has a long history of actually being closely connected with support for religious belief in the Christian Church and within Christian theology ... according to Avalos, that historic connection remains much closer than those outside the field might ever suspect of a university field.

Similarly, Richard Carrier has of course written a book (though not one I would recommend) explaining at length why the methods used by bible scholars are flawed or even fallacious, and why their conclusions are nowhere near as strongly justified as they claim (Proving History, Richard Carrier, Prometheus Books, 2012).

And if you think about it, this is really the crux of the issue in all sceptic books on the historicity of Jesus. That is - almost by definition, sceptic authors such as Wells, Price, Doherty, Ellegard, and all earlier writers, are seriously distrusting of the so-called "scholarship" being used by those within bible-studies who claim their evidence (actually, only just the bible) and their methods (such as "argument from embarrassment", "argument from silence", "least distinctiveness", "higher criticism", "multiple attestation" etc.) are sound and reliable.

IOW - the appeal to authority here is frankly very shaky indeed, if not entirely misplaced. If you disbelieve a scientist when he tells you that (say) evolution is true, then he will give you an absolute mountain of undeniable experimental and theoretical/calculated evidence to support his conclusions. But if you ask Bart Ehrman or any bible scholar to give their evidence for Jesus, then all they can offer is to say such things as they believe the bible when it says Paul met James. And that is just nowhere near good enough. And nor is that anywhere a good enough justification for saying we should value bible-studies research of this sort for it’s own internal merits and not care so much about the impact it’s possibly fallacious claims and it’s historic association with the church, religion and theology, has quite directly on the lives of everyone on the planet today.

Bible scholarship is an inverted pyramid, you have this vast superstructure of books and studies all resting on the slim foundation of the NT and some writings of doubtful provenance.
 
Don't pretend for an instant that you expected anything. You found an out to the discussion, and that's it.

Why would I need to pretend anything?

I'm in a better position to know what I expected than you are - unless you're a psychic - in which case James Randi owes you a million dollars.

You'd better collect your winnings soon, before your Tarot deck turns against you.

Trolling ? I'm desperately trying to point out to him how silly what he is doing is, on the odd chance that he is not a chatbot. You have failed to demonstrate how I am doing the same thing.

Rather than deal with the substance of dejudge's posts, you choose to make inane, offensive, and off-point remarks about his style.

Maybe you've found an out to the discussion? :eek:
 
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Sheesh, guys, get a room.

Tsk! So mature!

Oh, and now you can read minds ?

It's my estimation that anyone who has to open his remarks by poisoning the well hasn't much confidence in the persuasiveness of their own arguments (if they ever get around to offering any).

Just FYI - logical fallacies are things you're not supposed to do.

;)
 
OK, then I was wrong, Eight bits.

In that case, your query is odd to me.
You posited that an individual would be expected to do the opposite of the field's concensus given the information, yet that didn't happen.
Are they holding some evidence we have not covered?
Are they uneducated?
Are they unreasonable?

Why would the field rest on existence with such terrible evidence?



Well that is a crucial question here. Why does the body of academics called "bible scholars" (and similar titles), overwhelmingly claim that the known evidence is such as to conclude that Jesus certainly lived and was certainly crucified by Pilate?

At risk of becoming boring with the name Hector Avalos (which was new to me until just a few weeks ago); the explanation described in detail by Avalos begins like this ...


Hector Avalos, The End of Biblical Studies.

p15-16 - " biblical studies began as an apologetic enterprise ... the largest organisation of professional biblical scholars , the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL), began as the Society of Biblical Literature and Exegesis in New York city in 1880 ... today the SBL is larger and more pluralistic ...

... but important features have remained constant. The main bond is bibliolatry, which entails the conviction that the bible is valuable and should remain the subject of academic study. Equally important, the society of biblical literature, while now relatively more free of denominational agendas, is still religionist in orientation. Scholars are still either part of faith communities, or see their work as assisting faith communities directly or indirectly. One of the most prominent Jewish biblical scholars today, Jon D Levenson, comments:

" The motivations of most historical critics of the Hebrew bible continues to be religious in character. It is a rare scholar in the field whose past does not include an intense Christian or Jewish commitment ".


p21 - " In his 2005 essay titled “do we need biblical scholars?”, Philip Davies the British biblical scholar notorious for emphasising the lack of historicity of many biblical accounts, asked the question -

“Can biblical scholars persuade others that they conduct a legitimate academic discipline? Until they do, can they convince anyone that they have something to offer to the intellectual life of the modern world? Indeed, I think many of us have to convince ourselves first." "



p22 - " Timothy Fitzgerald, another prominent scholar of religion, argues that " at one level the so-called study of religion (also called the science of religion, religious studies, comparative religion and phenomenology of religion) is a disguised form of liberal ecumenical theology". "



And Avalos then proceeds to spend the subsequent 400 pages and 1000 references explaining why this entire field is so deeply flawed and why it’s far from being free of religious influence and support.
 
Why would I need to pretend anything?

You tell me.

I'm in a better position to know what I expected than you are - unless you're a psychic - in which case James Randi owes you a million dollars.

He still hasn't gotten back to me on that. ;)

Rather than deal with the substance of dejudge's posts, you choose to make inane, offensive, and off-point remarks about his style.

Yes, and do you know why ? Because I've done A LOT of dealing with the substance in the last few months, to no avail. Dejudge doesn't listen to anyone at all. He's here to preach his own brand of fundamentalism. Don't think that I haven't tried to reason with him.

Maybe you've found an out to the discussion?

Or maybe not. Perhaps if you hadn't jumped into this thread six years in, and expected to get a handle on the conversation, you would've been better off. Again, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past, but you can't claim to have engaged me in discussion long enough to have given up already.
 
Perhaps if you hadn't jumped into this thread six years in, and expected to get a handle on the conversation, you would've been better off. Again, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past, but you can't claim to have engaged me in discussion long enough to have given up already.

Likewise, I'm sure.

Should you ever decide to engage in a serious discussion this thread might still be active then.
 
Sure. Do you at least understand and accept the point I have just made to you ?

I understand that you think that your seniority gives you certain privileges I haven't 'earned'.

Do you understand that just as I don't know you well enough, that you don't know me well enough since we've been in contact with one another the exact same amount of time?
 
You tell me.



He still hasn't gotten back to me on that. ;)



Yes, and do you know why ? Because I've done A LOT of dealing with the substance in the last few months, to no avail. Dejudge doesn't listen to anyone at all. He's here to preach his own brand of fundamentalism. Don't think that I haven't tried to reason with him.



Or maybe not. Perhaps if you hadn't jumped into this thread six years in, and expected to get a handle on the conversation, you would've been better off. Again, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past, but you can't claim to have engaged me in discussion long enough to have given up already.

Cheap shot, everyone has to start somewhere.

It doesn't take six years to figure out that another poster is just posting to get a rise out of others, such tactics as accusing others of fundamentalism, being uneducated, being a holocaust denier and being willing to end civilization as we know it quickly lead one to the conclusion that that poster is best left to their own delusions.

(I expect another "you're one too" response.)
 
Cheap shot, everyone has to start somewhere.

It doesn't take six years to figure out that another poster is just posting to get a rise out of others, such tactics as accusing others of fundamentalism, being uneducated, being a holocaust denier and being willing to end civilization as we know it quickly lead one to the conclusion that that poster is best left to their own delusions.

(I expect another "you're one too" response.)

It's just plain weird to me that somehow I 'don't have a handle on the conversation' when this is the exact same conversation on every board.

Anyone who's interested in a dialogue has plenty of opportunity to do so. I'm perfectly willing to engage with people on whatever level they are comfortable with - if they want substance they have to post substance, if they post snark then they apparently want snark.

This isn't rocket science.
 
I understand that you think that your seniority gives you certain privileges I haven't 'earned'.

You misunderstand my meaning: have you followed the thread on lurk mode for months ? If not, then you do not know how much time and effort I or anyone else has put on reasoning with Dejudge. Therefore it is unfair of you to presume to know.
 
You misunderstand my meaning: have you followed the thread on lurk mode for months ? If not, then you do not know how much time and effort I or anyone else has put on reasoning with Dejudge. Therefore it is unfair of you to presume to know.

I am familiar with dejudge.

Some time ago (before I registered here) Stone cited me on these boards as a baleful influence because I actually take efforts to understand his posts.

Likewise I can see dejudge has invested a lot of time and effort in trying to reason with people. It's not all one-sided.

From my unbiased and objective POV. ;)
 
Are you saying the gospels teach that Jesus was crucified in the reign of Claudius? Fascinating. Irenaeus knew these writings. Encyc Britt.

"For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar came together and condemned Him to be crucified." (Irenaeus (c180 CE) Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching (74))

As pointed out by Crossan, Herod Agrippa I was the first Herod since Herod the Great to have the formal title of "king of the Jews" (Crossan, John Dominic (1996) Who Killed Jesus?: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story pg 94)

Josephus in Jewish Antiquities 19.274 documents Claudius formally putting Agrippa in charge of the lands once ruled by his grandfather Herod the Great resulting in him being "like Herod the Great before him, king of the Jews." (Crossan).

This jives with Against Heresies 2:22:4 where Irenaeus argues (quoting part of the Gospel of John) "Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, 'You are not yet forty years old.'"

Even if you push Jesus's supposed birth date in Matthew to c. 6 BCE (Herod the Great killing children two years old and younger), putting Jesus at 34 in c. 29 CE (there is no year zero), you don't get to the required minimum 46 years of age until 41 CE, which requires the Caesar to be Claudius (41-54 CE) and the Herod "king of the Jews" to be Agrippa I (42-44 CE).

The only issue here is Pontius Pilate, who not only had been recalled to Rome in 36 CE, but with a Herod "king of the Jews" in charge would not have been needed. Every other point Irenaeus raises in Against Heresies 2:22:4 supports his statement in Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching (74) and firmly puts Jesus' crucifixion no earlier then 41 CE for Claudius Caesar and no earlier then 42 CE for Herod Agrippa I's "king of the Jews" title "even as the Gospel and all the elders testify".
 
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Actually, in "Against Heresies" 2.22 it is claimed the supposed crucifixion of Jesus happened around c 50 CE or about 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius when he was baptized by John.

Against Heresies 2.22 "For it is altogether unreasonable to suppose that they were mistaken by twenty years, when they wished to prove Him younger than the times of Abraham.."

It has been completely overlooked that Irenaeus was supposed to be a PRESBYTER or Bishop of the Church of Lyons.

Based on Irenaeus, at around c 180 CE, it was TAUGHT in the Church of Lyons, by the Elders, by the Apostles and the Gospels that Jesus was Crucified c 50 CE when Claudius was Emperor.

The Church of Lyons could NOT have known of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus where Jesus was crucified some time BEFORE c 37 CE in the time of Pilate.

I have seen Apologists go though gyrations that would put Reed Richards to shame in trying to explain away Against Heresies 2.22 but Demonstration (74) is immune to this kind of tap dancing as it expressly states "Herod the king of the Jews" and "Claudius Caesar" and even with fudging the best one can get is 41-44 CE well after Paul's conversion (no later then 37 CE).
 
I have seen Apologists go though gyrations that would put Reed Richards to shame in trying to explain away Against Heresies 2.22 but Demonstration (74) is immune to this kind of tap dancing as it expressly states "Herod the king of the Jews" and "Claudius Caesar" and even with fudging the best one can get is 41-44 CE well after Paul's conversion (no later then 37 CE).

Watch the gyrations: Irenaeus was wrong. Pilate wasn't a governor of Claudius. The end.

Some crazy gyrations there... or not.

Irenaeus was trying to assert that Jesus was older than forty for some Theological reasons, he wasn't above "lying for Jesus", he practically invented the idea.
 
Ian and Eight Bits,

The separate conversations are arriving at the same tangent.
Eight Bits,

Your question regarding heuristics goes back to the discussion previously where I was talking about the difference between the 1960's and ancient history and relativity.

There are no concrete measures to list for you on this matter for this field; History as a whole.

What takes place are publications (in books through academic publications [which require a peer review before publication], for History and Anthropology - there are no publication paper systems like physical sciences), and there are forums and conventions for discussion (from which, sometimes following such community talks a publication is released which covers the results of those discussions and the conclusions drawn).

The only way historicity of anything is accomplished, lacking some clear archaeological find, is through a consensus of publications and talks - flawed or not as that may be.

This is not me appealing to some authority; that something is classed as historically evident has nothing to do with whether or not it is actually the case.

A good example of this is the Battle of Kadesh.
For the longest time we had a single record of this battle and it was from the Egyptian side.
The Egyptian account reported massive scores of forces and a solid victory for Egypt.

This event and the results of it were classed as historically evident for generations.
Then we found the library of Hattusa and in that library we found a conflicting account of that battle.

So who do we believe; Hittite records or Egyptian records?
What was done was a critical examination and reasoning (quite a bit rests on reasoning and arguments).

Egypt has exaggerated their military conquests before, so it was possible that they did in this case.
Hittite records, when compared to other records of written records from the region, seemed less exaggerated (deviated little from other sources) in other cases.
The Hittite records tend to account for their losses in what appears to be a more realistic (meaning, there's no bragging motive) sense.
Hittite records essentially claim a form of draw or stand-off as the result of the Battle of Kadesh, rather than either side outright winning.
Hittite records hold a more humble account of military numbers than the Egyptian records.

So, the arguments were made that the general idea of taking the more humble as the more likely should probably be followed, and considering the above information, that we would audit the Historically Evident record of the Battle of Kadesh to reflect a more Hittite record-friendly version of the battle than the previous account of Egyptian-only record.

So the Battle of Kadesh changed its historicity entirely through this process.
And could it still be in error? Did we get this right? Are we absolutely certain that the Hittites didn't make up their version to save face in their absolute defeat against Egypt?

We don't have a way of knowing those answers.
We can only say that the historicity stands at the conclusion and rests in this case for now as historically evident until some argument or evidence comes forward at a later time which compels the historical community to agree in general on a different conclusion.


So Jesus is listed as historically evident.
Does that mean he actually existed?
No.
It does mean that the general field has declared this figure as historically evident using what information (which is the same information that has been scattered all around this thread) is available, and spending considerable amounts of time in discussions and publications on the subject.

Does this particular field have a problem?
Do theologians own the field?

Yes, there are problems in the field.
No, theologians do not own the field.

Did Jesus actually exist?
No clue.

What's my opinion on the matter?
I think it would be remarkable if someone existed in the 1st c CE, or around there, from whom an accurate account of their actions and life was produced and preserved in such grand detail.

Look at it this way: who else in this region and era has any record of their life so well accounted for?
No one.

So does it seem reasonable for Jesus to have this detailed account of an actual life that also just happens to be packed with cultural idioms in locations, names, and actions?
Did this figure just happen to go places, interact with people, and do certain actions that just perfectly line up with idiomatic culture and symbolism?

To me, no; that doesn't seem reasonable.

Does that mean no one like this, in some form, existed and from which a grossly misrepresented set of stories arose?
No.

Does it mean that such did happen?
No.

Does it mean that the stories are not from some compression of a bunch of similar figures in this period which ended up attributed to a single individual?
No.

Does it mean that such did happen?
No.

Does any of this mean Jesus actually did exist?
No.

Does it mean that he actually did not exist?
No.


Where are we at the end of this then?
Jesus is historically evident.
That figure's actual state of existence will need to be each persons judgement call as they see it.

There is no way to prove either direction (currently).
We can either reject or accept the position of existence, but we cannot prove it either way.

We can argue it endlessly in both directions, however.


Ian, I think that addresses your comments as well, but since you did not see my comments regarding theologians:
Edit: By the way, this is why I really have a sore attitude and negative bias regarding Theologians working in the historical field beyond the capacity of being a cultural translation assistant. Meaning, Western theologians, in my opinion, should not be used in any more capacity than anyone uses Buddhist monks when working on a piece of history. Theologians should certainly not be considered unbiased or creditable in regards to history.
It is a personal frustration of mine that such a field is tolerated and treated as if equal to secular training and degree attainment in the appropriate field of study.

Your marvel at the state of the field is not marvelous to me; it's very old hat for me.
I have dealt with it for about a decade and a half at this point, in one form or another.
 
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JaysonR


This is not me appealing to some authority; that something is classed as historically evident has nothing to do with whether or not it is actually the case.
Thank you. That's all I need to know. I appreciate your candor and directness.
 
What do you perceive to be Galilean philosophies of coexistence and tolerance?
The Galilean perspectives were really quite defined and shaped by their limitations of self-governance and will to power.
They had synagogues sitting right next to Hellenistic temples whether they liked it or not, and they absolutely lacked any sort of military might to resist any force pushed upon them.

Even before they were "Galilee" (which occurred in the Hasmonean era), this region was tossed around larger nations' control like a canoe in an Atlantic Ocean hurricane.

You would go to the Sea of Galilee and see grand Hellenistic structures on one side and behind you would be Hebrew structures.

This is the boundary area where Alexander stopped; where he Hellenized the Judaic religion in the North.

This is a group of people ran back and forth over negligent of their interests more times than possibly any other group of people still surviving in the Levant region by the 1st c CE.

They had no other culture than just putting up with whichever government was imposed upon them, and they even served two governments at once - paying loyalty to Judah and Rome (for example) at the same time. Meaning, they paid tax to both (like State and Federal income tax).

Their tolerance was one of survival, but it became a general defining difference between the North and South; the south is where you were going to find more militant speaking calls for the future of their culture, where the North really didn't call out for much of anything.
The groups that we find up there mostly call upon adherents to live according to the Laws of Moses and remain true to their way of life while at the same time living among a mixture of culture they had no option but to accept.

At the same time, they also lacked the Temple with easy access. Similar to Muslims of today, they were required to make a trip to the Temple at least once in their life, but outside of that, most of their time for their religion came from their local Synagogues which operated more like a public forum or sometimes like a modern Protestant church (kind of) than the ritual-heavy Temple services.

As a result of being mostly filled with synagogues and separated from Judah by a literal country being in the way, they also didn't have the Law on record in text as accessibly as was possible in the South; they also lacked the Judges and Priest class for the most part.

It's not that they were more "liberal" (to borrow a phrase), but they were more surviving by hanging on to their culture in spite of all of these challenges, and as one would expect; this created a slightly different perspective than the culture surrounding Temple-centered life in Judah.

Keeping in mind that the primary Market place in Judah was at Temple as well; meanwhile, in Galilee, the primary market place was Tyre (not a Hebrew-centered city by any stretch).


Does that answer your question?
 
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