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Theists: Please give me a reason to believe in your superpowered invisible overlord

The OP is certainly a bit of a laaf, I mean 'superpowered invisible overlord', but I am wondering if it does describe some Christian views of God, and maybe it does, people like creationists? They seem to have a view of God as a kind of Superman, or high-level Isambard Brunel, who can knock up a giraffe in a jiffy.

I remember arguing with a creationist about rare species of animal, and I asked him why God creates the Algerian nuthatch, and he replied, rather magnificently, 'because it so pleased him'. There is a kind of overlord flavour there, I think.
I know boatloads of christians that think of god in this manner.

But as to other theists, maybe their idea of God is a bit less crude. For example, the idea that God is pure actuality, (Actus Purus), which comes with the imprimatur of Aristotle, no less.
Yes, and Aristotle also believed the heart was the center of knowledge and the brain was a cooling device. So what?

However, truth to tell, very few people have a clue what that means!
Correct.

Well, they say that not knowing is a start!
Sometimes correct. And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes I dunno is the best answer.
 
As promised, I'm continuing with this 12-part series on the brain, delusion/vision, deity and all that. Enclosed is the second installment.

Cheers,

Stone

=================================

[enclosure]

Adaptive Doctrines and their Origins

I

Essentially, this involves a step-by-step process. The first step is to take evolution as being thoroughly random, as described in Kirschner's _Plausibility of Life_. Consequently, I do not believe there is anything purposive, either at the outset or later, in the evolution of any species. That said, there are certain common consequences that obtain for those species that are most dependent on socialization -- as the species of humanity, of _homo_ _sapiens_, definitely is -- the chief one being the ultimately destructive impact of anti-social behavior versus the constructive impact of "pro-social behavior" (if you will), with similar long-term results across the board for all such species in either case.

It is possible to confuse that with a sense of purpose of a sort, but that would be misleading. One can perhaps clarify this by citing the example of a table laden down with various dishes and suddenly impacted by an earthquake, resulting in many of the dishes clattering to the floor. Now, there is no deliberate purpose anterior to the possible survival intact of certain dishes that are not made of the most delicate china, versus the probable shattering into pieces of those dishes made of the most delicate china. Yet, the tendency to shatter, and/or the tendency to survive intact, still obtains in the general conditions prevailing at the time of the earthquake. That doesn't mean that the tougher dishes were deliberately "meant" to survive this particular earthquake at this particular time. But it does mean that stronger materials are more likely to survive sudden earthquakes -- in general -- than would pieces of the most delicate china.

Consequently, it's what obtains in _prevailing conditions_ for species A and/or Species B (and/or Species C, etc.) that I'm spotlighting. In spotlighting this, it occurs to me that if the more cohesive "pro-social behavior" seems conducive to greater social cohesion -- i.e., you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours -- then the opposite is probably true as well -- i.e., that anti-social behavior by too many members can ultimately impact negatively the prospects for an overall community's or a pride's or a flock's, or a herd's long-term survival. The conditions are already there, in either case, for a certain ultimate outcome that remains more likely than not. But it is still not a foregone (or purposely planned) conclusion. I forget where, but I recall that Stephen Jay Gould makes a similar comparison, showing (essentially) that the species where "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" prevails is more likely to survive the figurative equivalent of an "earthquake" than is a community where it's Each One For Oneself.


II

The second step is to analyze what may have been the chief circumstances behind any doctrines that have sprung up in Community A where, say, self-centered behavior has been promulgated, versus the chief circumstances behind any doctrines that have obtained in Community B where, say, selfless or altruistic behavior has been promulgated, and so on. This necessarily entails scrutinizing any and all cultural doctrines (including possibly opposing doctrines) at their originating point, or as close to their originating point as is humanly possible -- i.e., the earliest extant instance at which such or such a doctrine has first been advanced in the written record. Tracing all this is not so easy, but sometimes it is possible. Bear in mind that throughout this step-by-step process the possible future of a given community is always in the balance: Will it flourish and cohere with at least a minimum level of altruism and selflessness among its members that can prod a degree of growing social cohesiveness along, however haltingly, or will its members grow more and more self-centered instead, ultimately threatening its social cohesion altogether? As my brother often reminds me, "No man is an island" -- a lesson that applies just as well to Gould's description of other mammalian species that, like homo sapiens, also depend on socialization. This second step, then, entails analyzing how come some cultural doctrines have honored the "No man is an island" principle, while others haven't.

The paper trail for the various doctrines behind human communities/cultures throughout the past 5,000 years or so may not be complete, but it is still ample enough to be useful in detecting any general trends.

Extrapolating those general trends -- once one has assembled the chief doctrines and their earliest extant examples -- is the third and biggest step.


III

In first perusing these doctrines, back in the '80s/early '90s, I didn't study them with any eye at all to either atheism or theism. I was an atheist at the time anyway, while I'm not as sure today as to just how I'd call myself, although as a result of these studies outlined here, I'd say I'm no longer a skeptic -- at least, no longer a skeptic with a capital S. So when I started this doctrinal research, way back when, all such considerations of atheism/theism etc. seemed pretty irrelevant at the time. Instead, I simply viewed all such doctines as a straightforward sequence of sociological patterns. I only had one goal in mind: seeing if there were any consistent patterns of any kind behind the self-centered doctrines versus those behind the altruistic ones that have prevailed back and forth throughout the pushmi-pullyu odyssey of human cultures. I didn't necessarily expect to find a pattern at all, in fact. But I was hoping I'd find one. Why? Because I was dismayed first by the way that the Cold War was still being pursued in the face of all sanity at the time, then by the ostrich-headed response to the hard science emerging on polar warming and convulsive climate change, and finally by the dashing of all hopes that the subsequent end of the Cold War might bring some sanity to ethnic strife in the industrialized world in the mid-'90s rubble of Bosnia.

It seemed quite clear to me that all the more altruistic doctrines throughout history have emerged -- randomly, yes, but still luckily -- at points in the human story when cruel cultures are on the very brink of implosion through sheer brutality. However, I couldn't help thinking, now that such brutality has the newfound capacity in our new global village to impact an entire world and not just some puny hemispheric empire or other, Has our luck finally run out?

We are, after all, sailing uncharted waters. And today, the global village is so small that we know within minutes of a devastating earthquake down in Chile. Also, one lone maniac has the capacity to impact history globally in an instant -- Osama Bin Laden on 9/11. And so on (although in the '90s, we were all still innocent of Al Qaeda, of course).

Suddenly those doctrines that have (sometimes) sparked the better angels of our nature are no longer of merely academic interest. They have now assumed critical importance in our ultimate escape from imminent extinction. Frankly, I concluded back in the early '90s that the extinction of humanity was more likely than not within the coming century (where we are now). And I've seen nothing at all to change my opinion on that.

=============================
 
Stone, let me make a suggestion that I hope you will take in the spirit it is offered, namely, to help you.

Spreading your 12 posts over several days in this one thread diminishes your message. Very few, if any, are going to stay in this thread over the next 3+ weeks (if the thread even lasts that long). Also, even fewer are going to go back through the thread to read your contribution as a whole.

Rather, I suggest you start a thread about your ideas in which the OP contains a link to the entirety of your piece. You'll then enable a direct discussion of it without derailing this thread.
 
Yes, absolutely. The core of the god in the OP is faith. It is central and essential to the whole idea. The god of the OP is not one of reason, rationality or evidence. A search for objective evidence of a "superpowered invisible overlord" is a fool's errand.

Okay, so objective evidence supporting belief in the existence of this invisible being is off the table. What leads you to that belief, then? Does it just sound like a good idea? What specifically gives a foundation to your faith?

I though that was nicely, and eloquently put, in it's entirety.

I think Dawkins referred to religion as a "mind virus", though I don't know if he was the first. Also studied it as a powerful, self-replicating meme. Religions come and go, but the survivors tend to be the "fittest", and hence the most virulent, over time.

To carry the analogy further, could not your "perception" be a lasting scar from a previous infection? Something like the way some people carry smallpox scars?

Just a thought...

It's possible that my own perception of "a fleeting entity at the edges of my consciousness" is indeed "a lasting scar from a previous infection", so to speak. I was a theist as a child. However, I understand this perception (however delusional) to be near-universal among human beings regardless of our enculturation. The deity-concept seems ingrained in human consciousness, as a result of the attributes I outlined in the post to which you responded above. But I will certainly consider a solid rebuttal to that idea.

Because it works for me.

Question: why do you care? :confused:

(I infer you care because you took the time to frame the question. If you don't care, than the trolling motive would be a rational conclusion).

I'm interested in the processes of reason and faith which lead one to belief in an invisible, superpowered creator-being. The thread topic is a request for some reason for me to believe, but obviously you're under no compulsion to provide this if the conversation doesn't interest you.

I was a pretty lazy Christian. I believed because everyone around me seemed to. I was a bit noncommittal when it came to denomination as they were so clearly man made and had so many logical inconsistencies, but I was certainly a Christian, even though I never gave it much thought. My flip response to non-believers was: My god does not require your belief.

At some point I thought to be a better Christian, learn more about the topic and sort of redouble my efforts to be a Real Christian. This was not a good exercise for my Christianity.

I quickly found that the issues I attributed to denominations were really inherent in Christianity. And the logical lapses were coping mechanisms to find any coherency whatsoever.

The whole idea of worshipping God just made no sense. Why would an omnipotent being want to be worshipped? It just smacks of low self-esteem. Who has time for an omnipotent creator of everything who suffers from low self-esteem?

So, now I've settled into a new flippant response on the topic of religion: God doesn't require my belief.

This is similar to my own arc of belief. I accepted the idea of God because that's what my comic-book Picture Bible told me, it was what seemed comforting in my mind, and it was what I learned in Sunday school (when I deigned to attend). Later when i began scrutinizing it vis-a-vis the writings of Carl Sagan and others, I could no longer accept what was clearly (to me) a fantasy concocted to soothe fear, and to provide answers where there are not necessarily any to be found.

Of course not, the question is ridiculous, intentionally loaded, intentionally offensive and divisive.

It is as if someone asked "when did you start beating your wife."

Save your smart ass "smilie," champ, and do some remedial studying on logical fallacies.

Thanks for posting, though.

Yikes. I'm afraid you have me and my motives confused with someone else. I'm interested in a frank and lively discussion on the impulses and thought processes behind faith and theistic belief. If all you have are insults and derogation, please post elsewhere.

The OP is certainly a bit of a laaf, I mean 'superpowered invisible overlord', but I am wondering if it does describe some Christian views of God, and maybe it does, people like creationists? They seem to have a view of God as a kind of Superman, or high-level Isambard Brunel, who can knock up a giraffe in a jiffy.

I remember arguing with a creationist about rare species of animal, and I asked him why God creates the Algerian nuthatch, and he replied, rather magnificently, 'because it so pleased him'. There is a kind of overlord flavour there, I think.

But as to other theists, maybe their idea of God is a bit less crude. For example, the idea that God is pure actuality, (Actus Purus), which comes with the imprimatur of Aristotle, no less. However, truth to tell, very few people have a clue what that means! However, it is opposed to 'theistic personalism', which tends to see God as a Very Big Bloke.

One of my theistic friends tell me that he feels known, which sort of impresses me. So I guess for him, there is a Knower. However, it's doubtful if there could be evidence for that; not sure about arguments. It becomes all very subjective. I suppose you do get the argument here, that there is something which cannot not exist, but that seems very obscure. Where is it?

Then there are the non-dualistic movements, such as advaita, where God is a kind of totality or unity, which occurs when the fragments of reality are brought together, hmm. I dunno. Well, they say that not knowing is a start!

Please elucidate these arguments that "there is something which cannot not exist". I find the notion intriguing and I would like to try to falsify it logically.
 
Hi Vortigern99, I should not have used the word 'argument' for something which cannot not exist, as I was not really referring to the various arguments for divine necessity. I'm not very familiar with them, although as far as I can see, they all have the fault of defining God into existence. They mainly boil down to the ontological argument, although I believe that Gödel did an unusual version of this.

As far as I can see, God is reckoned to be a necessary being, rather than a contingent one, in the different Abrahamic faiths; or I suppose you could phrase it as: God is either necessary or impossible.

I was referring rather to people who have told me of their experiences of 'something which cannot not exist', which they arrived at not via argument but directly or intuitively. As with any other experience, they suffer from being difficult to share with others, although I suppose they might be the basis for a personal faith of some kind.
 
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The thing about these philosophical gods is their distance from reality; reality that we live-in, stir-about, fling, probe, weigh, spin, slop, chuck, swallow, breath, transmit.

The bridge from that distant god to this reality is the missing theological link. At some point the effects of that god must touch, as if fingers from the other side of a mirror, our reality and then continue along quantum lines, up into atoms to land in hearts and minds.

Can any believer point to that reality interface? Because that can be tested by science.
 
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Cosmologists have determined that the existence of the universe, and the evolution of intelligent life is so improbable that they have invented the theory of infinite failed universes to explain the one we are in.
I cannot give you a list of all the reasons why life as we know it is improbable without some research, but I know there are many reasons. For example the force of gravity has to be just right to build planets, and we have to be just the right distance from the sun. There are many, many such things that have to be exactly right, or we would not exist.
Therefore I propose the universe has an intelligent designer. As this is more probable that that all we can survey throught the hubble telescope came into being by accident, and without meaning.
Oh no not the silly Fine Tuning nonsense again.

ddt, do a google for "multiverse" and you will find a lot of information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
None of which is relevent you your desire to invent a universal designer.
 
I listened to a debate once about God/No God where one of the concluding questions was something like, "What argument from the other side do you find most compelling?"

The "No God" side just floundered about, never really answering it.

I remain an atheist, but I must admit that when recently taking an online astronomy course, I was again reminded of how "remarkable" it is that math can so precisely explain the way the universe works. The way certain constants, like pi and the speed of light, keep recurring to make the equations fit "just so". Maybe it's my lack of understanding of the math involved, but I still end up in awe about the way equations fit reality - or vice versa!

Not saying it's an argument for God or a law giver, but it is one of the few things that makes me pause and go hmmmmm.
 
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I listened to a debate once about God/No God where one of the concluding questions was something like, "What argument from the other side do you find most compelling?"
The "No God" side just floundered about, never really answering it.

I remain an atheist, but I must admit that when recently taking an online astronomy course, I was again reminded of how "remarkable" it is that math can so precisely explain the way the universe works. The way certain constants, like pi and the speed of light, keep recurring to make the equations fit "just so". Maybe it's my lack of understanding of the math involved, but I still end up in awe about the way equations fit reality - or vice versa!

Not saying it's an argument for God or a law giver, but it is one of the few things that makes me pause and go hmmmmm.

My answer would be "none of them."
 
I remember this one...

a) God is love

b) Love is blind

c) Ray Charles* is blind

d) Therefore, Ray Charles is God.


*Insert Stevie Wonder if you like. Ray Charles, having died, would not fit the "immortal" quality God is thought to have.
 
I was a theist and then an atheist for the past four decades. Recently I found the answer, for myself. I read the book Journey Of Souls by Michael Newton and it has changed my way of thinking.

Good thing you didn't read Peter Pan instead.

In it he describes how his clients were hypnotised and regressed.

That's terrible. Read up on hypnosis, and find out how ridiculous this is. Don't hinge your on a single book.

I didn't really understand this until I read the gospel of Thomas, which was not included in the bible.

So you added a faith-based book upon pseudoscience and you think you've found some deep truth about the physical universe ? Think about that for a while.
 
I listened to a debate once about God/No God where one of the concluding questions was something like, "What argument from the other side do you find most compelling?"

The "No God" side just floundered about, never really answering it.

Really ? I can answer it: None. I've never seen a compelling pro-supernatural argument. The most interesting ones still stem from a misunderstanding of the physics and logic involved, but all of them fail in the evidence department. The most "compelling" argument for god is one I made up, and never heard from a theist.
 
The thing about these philosophical gods is their distance from reality; reality that we live-in, stir-about, fling, probe, weigh, spin, slop, chuck, swallow, breath, transmit.

The bridge from that distant god to this reality is the missing theological link. At some point the effects of that god must touch, as if fingers from the other side of a mirror, our reality and then continue along quantum lines, up into atoms to land in hearts and minds.

Can any believer point to that reality interface? Because that can be tested by science.

Well, I have never been able to understand how the supernatural can be described or assessed. I mean, there is no method for doing that; or at any rate, I have never heard of one. Terms like 'evidence' are naturalistic, so how on earth can they be used in support of the supernatural? I suppose something very strange might be used, e.g. if all cancer patients in the world were cured at 2pm tomorrow. But even that does not indicate anything supernatural.

Yes, the philosophical arguments seem too abstract to me. As I said earlier, I know various people who have had 'transcendent' experiences, and have extrapolated from those, some idea of God. But such experiences cannot be shared, or tested. And in addition, some Buddhists have transcendent experiences, and extract no God from that!
 
Well, I have never been able to understand how the supernatural can be described or assessed. I mean, there is no method for doing that; or at any rate, I have never heard of one. Terms like 'evidence' are naturalistic, so how on earth can they be used in support of the supernatural?

You can't. It's an inconsistent concept. If it's supernatural, there is no way to interact with it. If you can interact with it, it's not supernatural.
 
Well, I have never been able to understand how the supernatural can be described or assessed. I mean, there is no method for doing that; or at any rate, I have never heard of one. Terms like 'evidence' are naturalistic, so how on earth can they be used in support of the supernatural? I suppose something very strange might be used, e.g. if all cancer patients in the world were cured at 2pm tomorrow. But even that does not indicate anything supernatural.

Yes, the philosophical arguments seem too abstract to me. As I said earlier, I know various people who have had 'transcendent' experiences, and have extrapolated from those, some idea of God. But such experiences cannot be shared, or tested. And in addition, some Buddhists have transcendent experiences, and extract no God from that!

I wasn't really replying specifically to you; I think we pretty much agree. And yes, some Buddhists are cool. :)
 
The OP is certainly a bit of a laaf, I mean 'superpowered invisible overlord', but I am wondering if it does describe some Christian views of God, and maybe it does, people like creationists?
.......................
Then there are the non-dualistic movements, such as advaita, where God is a kind of totality or unity, which occurs when the fragments of reality are brought together, hmm. I dunno. Well, they say that not knowing is a start!

God started out talking to people, sometimes face to face.....now he's not for some reason.

We were made in his image......and yet we aren't invisible either. See how traditions grow. :)
 
You can't. It's an inconsistent concept. If it's supernatural, there is no way to interact with it. If you can interact with it, it's not supernatural.

In which case, my provisional working concept of deity might not be supernatural. <shrug>

Stone
 

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