Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

You are offended by the word panties?? Seriously? So, what are they? knickers? LOL.

What do you call yours?

 

[Anode]

Hi Anode, thanks for the welcome, and back at you. My first post was a few earlier comments up, and a bit longer, I think I tried to explain why Mignini et als would want to frame AK and RS.

I think we agree that Guede being more than a low level informant is not too palatable as a theory.

As for 'taking down' Guede, the question is, just how bad do you think they are? In any event, Guede was already in German custody, and his handover was as public as could be. Even if they wanted to, they had missed their chance.

It's all about not holding Guede alone responsible for the crime. Mignini's last desperate plea at the Hellman acquittal, was "don't let the black boy pay alone!". Mignini was pleading for himself. It was him or Amanda, from day 1, imo.

Well yes. The "taking down" obviously didn't happen. So we know that they are not that corrupt. But framing an innocent foreigner is pretty darn corrupt. What's my point here? ... I guess it boils down to this:

I don't know what accounts for my disagreement with the prosecutor. Is it just a different way of thinking? Is it incompetence on their part or a lack of seeing all of the evidence on mine? Is it vindictive on their part, is it face saving, is it corruption? I've no idea.

Anyway, best of luck in your efforts to discover. We're here to bounce ideas off of and hopefully other responses will be more useful than mine.

 

[Planigale]

I think all this should give Massei and the other judges some slack. There is no way to know exactly how it all came down.

The mocking is moderately funny but I would throw Curatolo out no matter what. Raf goes up there to seduce Meredith but finds her with the lowly Rudi and she tells him to bugger off and he smote her with his handle pocket knife and Rudi tells us the rest.



There is nothing ridiculous about my apple crisp! I use fresh Granny Smith apples btw.

The funny thing is I really do agree with you! If you throw out Curatolo, this scenario makes sense. It is why I think Sollecito will not split from Knox. All the admittedly dubious physical evidence incriminates Sollecito. Knox is more Sollecito's alibi than vice versa. If I was Knox's defence (and i am no lawyer), if the cases split, I would go for the doped with skunk and GHB and left in Sollecito's flat defence. Sollecito takes Knox's keys. Sollecito is far more likely to know Guede than Knox. Sollecito was expecting Knox to be working and so had arranged to meet with Guede, Knox's confusion was because of her being sedated by Sollecito to let him go out whilst providing an alibi because Knox would never know he left.

I still do not think this is the truth but is a much better fit than including Knox.

Granny Smith's would be too mushy for a good crumble I'd recommend a cooker like a Bramley, they keep their texture better. I am also not sure about the use of corn flour. Though I imagine using polenta would make a nice crumble topping. (If we continue this the mods will create a sub thread).

 

[Planigale]

Hi Anode, thanks for the welcome, and back at you. My first post was a few earlier comments up, and a bit longer, I think I tried to explain why Mignini et als would want to frame AK and RS.

I think we agree that Guede being more than a low level informant is not too palatable as a theory.

As for 'taking down' Guede, the question is, just how bad do you think they are? In any event, Guede was already in German custody, and his handover was as public as could be. Even if they wanted to, they had missed their chance.

It's all about not holding Guede alone responsible for the crime. Mignini's last desperate plea at the Hellman acquittal, was "don't let the black boy pay alone!". Mignini was pleading for himself. It was him or Amanda, from day 1, imo.

Welcome! Any views on the crumble issue?

 

[anglolawyer]

All crisps/crumbles are baked.

Isn't there a rule against using a person from JREF's quote as one's signature line?

Make it worth my while and I'll delete it

 

[Anode]

Welcome! Any views on the crumble issue?

For apples I'd use a Rome Beauty.

 

[acbytesla]

What do you call yours?

Panties........... Boxers, skivvies, tighty whities..shorts...lacy frilly things... Depends on my mood.

 

[acbytesla]

Welcome to the forum. I'm new here too.

I'm skeptical about the whole Mignini - Guede conspiracy line of thought. (I'm in the right forum I guess.)

I mean, why go to such lengths to protect a low level informant? If I were a corrupt cop with other "like minded" under me, I would have recognized that the subject has gone "off the rails' as it were and taken down Rudy on apprehending him. "Sorry, he attacked our officers with a knife and had to be disarmed. Unfortunately he didn't make it. Anyway, his DNA's all over the crime scene. Case Closed!!" And with that all problems are solved.

Why try to cover up one indiscretion with a much larger one with the framing of a US citizen? Just too much for me. Plus I believe they were already blaming AK and RS before they knew about RG?

Maybe I've read one too many Tom Clancy novels...

I don't buy that this was a conspiracy to to cover up a Rudy Guede connection. In my book, this is all about confirmation bias, group think and the genuine morons who got carried away and then refused to admit it.

Out of curiosity Anode, is your alter ego Cathode??

 

[Bill Williams]

There are now pro-innocence banners circulating the Internet. No less that Harry Rag, a long-time obsessive guilter, has now taken to vandalising them.

But this particular vandalization needs noting. Harry Rag, whoever he is, has been circulating mistruths for the last 6 years, to every comments' section of every piece which has ever appeared via on-line-news sources, to blogs.

He's now devolved, and this latest vandlaization has exposed him for what he is. A simple hater of Amanda Knox, with no real evidence to speak about. See the attached thumbnail.

To address Harry Rag's hateful nonsense consider:

- In this vandalization, Harry Rag now speaks of "mixed DNA." For 6 years, Harry Rag has been carpet-bombing comments' sections about Amanda's guilt being based on "mixed blood", rather than what he now claims. Even Judge Massei, who convicted Sollecito and Knox in 2009, dismisses "mixed blood", yet until now Harry Rag continued on with the lie that it was mixed blood.
So what does HR say now? The hypocrite has abandoned "mixed blood" for "mixed DNA" I ask you and anyone else, why is it at all suspicious that "mixed DNA" was found between two people in the flat they shared, particularly the bathroom they shared for weeks?
Harry Rag is now a weaselly hypocrite, even he now is abandoning the core of his "guilt case" he's been making for 6 years, namely "mixed blood" A google search will confirm this for you.​

- Multiple attackers: this was only asserted, really, in Rudy's fast track trials. These were legal processes without a trial-phase (which is what a fast-track is). More important, neither Knox nor Sollecito had representation at these shortened trials.
In Massei's trial, the one which had Sollecito and Knox as a party to it, only one expert out of many said it had to have been "multiple attackers". Most forensic reconstruction experts say it is eminently possible for poor Meredith to have been killed by a single attacker.
The only place where multiple attackers was found was at Rudy's trials, or at higher levels which seek to harmonize Rudy's processes with Amanda's/Raffaele's. That alone means that Amanda/Raffaele were wrongfully convicted, if the facts which convicted them were found at trials at which they had no representation.
I'd like to ask Harry Rag this... would he be willing to be judged at a trial which he was not allowed to challenge evidence?​

- The laughable one is the vandalization claiming that the "noise ticket" Knox paid, was as depicted. Even though Harry Rag has given up on "mixed blood", he's sticking with a "noise ticket", (similar to a parking ticket) being claimed to be a riot in the street. This is NOT an example of prior criminality on Knox's part - the fact that this is the sole issue he can find is proof that she had no criminality in her past.

- Amanda and Raffaele only had variations in their stories when pressured by police at interrogation, interrogations at which they illegally had no lawyer present. It's precisely the reason to have lawyers, to avoid suspects being bullied from their own stories, to accept the theories foisted on them by stressed out detectives desperate to solve a major case.
The reality is that apart from a 12 hour peirod when they were interrogated and without lawyers, they have never once varied their stories. They were with each other at Raffaele's​

Harry Rag is an obsessed Amanda-hater. So much so that he will lie, and change his story to suit the new theory whatever prosecutor is unlucky enough to try to offer yet they latest theory.

If it is "unchanging stories" Harry Rag is after, how does he account for 5 or 6 prosecution motives being offered, some mutually exclusive from others?

Ritualistic killing associated with Hallowe'en? Sex game gone wrong? Impulsive choice for evil, to join in with what is essentially Rudy's crime? Dispute over pooh in Filomena's toilet?

The real offense of Harry Rag these days is that he makes Meredith out to be a bitch, and NO ONE believes that about Meredith. The thought that Meredith would raise such a fuss about cleanliness that it would cause someone else to kill her is ludicrous and should be seen as offensive by all.

 

[Anode]

I don't buy that this was a conspiracy to to cover up a Rudy Guede connection. In my book, this is all about confirmation bias, group think and the genuine morons who got carried away and then refused to admit it.

Out of curiosity Anode, is your alter ego Cathode??

Only when I'm not thinking positively.

 

[Grinder]

The funny thing is I really do agree with you! If you throw out Curatolo, this scenario makes sense. It is why I think Sollecito will not split from Knox. All the admittedly dubious physical evidence incriminates Sollecito. Knox is more Sollecito's alibi than vice versa. If I was Knox's defence (and i am no lawyer), if the cases split, I would go for the doped with skunk and GHB and left in Sollecito's flat defence. Sollecito takes Knox's keys. Sollecito is far more likely to know Guede than Knox. Sollecito was expecting Knox to be working and so had arranged to meet with Guede, Knox's confusion was because of her being sedated by Sollecito to let him go out whilst providing an alibi because Knox would never know he left.

I still do not think this is the truth but is a much better fit than including Knox.

I've put this out for years and I must say I appreciate your take.

Raf's dad is a doctor and Raf had some anxiety issues IIRC. It wouldn't surprise me if he had some Xanax.

In all cases and all theories Curatolo must be thrown out. he didn't see them that night or probably ever. While I don't think TOD can be narrowed to 9 - 9:30 I do believe that it was before 10 because of the phone activity, the digestion and everything else.

Curatolo gives them an alibi until at least ten, actually until just before midnight.

I don't think Raf knew or had even met Rudi but no need for that under this scenario.

How about he planned to seduce Meredith and slipped Amanda something and she fell asleep. He puts on Naruto and hurries over to the cottage and finds Meredith but she tells him Rudi is there.

Biggest issues are all of her wounds and the door bell.

The idea that the police and judges and everyone framed Amanda to protect Rudi makes this theory a solid as a rock.

Granny Smith's would be too mushy for a good crumble I'd recommend a cooker like a Bramley, they keep their texture better. I am also not sure about the use of corn flour. Though I imagine using polenta would make a nice crumble topping. (If we continue this the mods will create a sub thread).

Don't mess with me on apple crisps:

Ingredients
Filling:
5 Granny Smith apples, peeled, cored, chopped small
1/4 cup finely chopped pecans
3 tablespoons all-purpose flour
1/2 cup brown sugar
2 tablespoons maple syrup
1 tablespoon lemon juice

Read more at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/patrick-and-gina-neely/apple-crisp-recipe.html?oc=linkback​

 

[carbonjam72]

Welcome! Any views on the crumble issue?

Reminds me of Mignini's prosecution theories; looks better from afar, but usually a disappointment when you dig into it.

 

[Grinder]

For apples I'd use a Rome Beauty.

NO ITALIAN APPLES IN A CRISP.

 

[Desert Fox]

Bill Williams:
That attached image of "guilt" is just pathetic.

 

[anglolawyer]

I want to make my position clear on apple crumble the Guede-Mignini conspiracy. I reject the idea that Guede was working for Mig in burgling the lawyers' office or in any other way. But the post-murder conspiracy is undeniable. Both knew the truth and both had an interest in altering it.

Consider Guede. He kills Meredith and heads off to Germany where he obsessively follows developments to see whether he got away with it. He reads all sorts of stories with bemusement - Meredith's broken window, the mysterious North African etc - then, miracle of miracles, A, R & P are arrested and the case is pronounced closed! He must have been one confused dude when he was arrested and returned to Italy in that mysterious manner. Why no extradition? Why not months of complicated proceedings in Germany? Now that is something I would like to know more about. Did he give up any rights in allowing himself to be returned so quickly? Why the rush?

Make no mistake about it, this guy got a great deal. They say he is out next year. If you read Borsini-Bellardi it's obvious he got an easy time from Mig, with the incredible crap about him 'helping' her. Not bad - commit brutal murder in '07, walk in '15. Life is still good. La dolce vita and all that. It's all too dietrological.

 

[carbonjam72]

I've put this out for years and I must say I appreciate your take.

Raf's dad is a doctor and Raf had some anxiety issues IIRC. It wouldn't surprise me if he had some Xanax.

In all cases and all theories Curatolo must be thrown out. he didn't see them that night or probably ever. While I don't think TOD can be narrowed to 9 - 9:30 I do believe that it was before 10 because of the phone activity, the digestion and everything else.

Curatolo gives them an alibi until at least ten, actually until just before midnight.
I don't think Raf knew or had even met Rudi but no need for that under this scenario. How about he planned to seduce Meredith and slipped Amanda something and she fell asleep. He puts on Naruto and hurries over to the cottage and finds Meredith but she tells him Rudi is there.
Biggest issues are all of her wounds and the door bell.

The idea that the police and judges and everyone framed Amanda to protect Rudi makes this theory a solid as a rock.
[/I][/INDENT]

Is it because I'm new, or am I failing to grasp the meaning here? Is this a serious suggestion?

If Curatolo must be ruled out in all cases, then how can his testimony be relied on to provide a constructive alibi?

Secondly, there is no more evidence against Raf than against Amanda, and they both claim to have spent the night together.

What possible value is there in constructing hypothesis for factual events like, 'Raf may have done it', that are effectively precluded by science based forensics?

It's a joke, right? And I'm just slow on the uptake? Please tell I fell for this...

 

[carbonjam72]

Post Murder Conspiracy

I want to make my position clear on apple crumble the Guede-Mignini conspiracy. I reject the idea that Guede was working for Mig in burgling the lawyers' office or in any other way. But the post-murder conspiracy is undeniable. Both knew the truth and both had an interest in altering it.

Consider Guede. He kills Meredith and heads off to Germany where he obsessively follows developments to see whether he got away with it. He reads all sorts of stories with bemusement - Meredith's broken window, the mysterious North African etc - then, miracle of miracles, A, R & P are arrested and the case is pronounced closed! He must have been one confused dude when he was arrested and returned to Italy in that mysterious manner. Why no extradition? Why not months of complicated proceedings in Germany? Now that is something I would like to know more about. Did he give up any rights in allowing himself to be returned so quickly? Why the rush?

Make no mistake about it, this guy got a great deal. They say he is out next year. If you read Borsini-Bellardi it's obvious he got an easy time from Mig, with the incredible crap about him 'helping' her. Not bad - commit brutal murder in '07, walk in '15. Life is still good. La dolce vita and all that. It's all too dietrological.

What do you believe is the nature of the post murder conspiracy, and when do you believe it began? Can you point to a single event that indicates its beginning, or that it is occurring? At what point do you believe the police decided they would frame Amanda and Rafaele?

 

[Grinder]

Is it because I'm new, or am I failing to grasp the meaning here? Is this a serious suggestion?

If Curatolo must be ruled out in all cases, then how can his testimony be relied on to provide a constructive alibi?

Secondly, there is no more evidence against Raf than against Amanda, and they both claim to have spent the night together.

What possible value is there in constructing hypothesis for factual events like, 'Raf may have done it', that are effectively precluded by science based forensics?

It's a joke, right? And I'm just slow on the uptake? Please tell I fell for this...

It can't be used in any case. He is not reliable BUT if they insist on using him then he gives an alibi.

Well there is more evidence against Raf. I don't agree with it but they say his foot print in blood is on the mat. His DNA was on the the bra clasp and the knife was his. Amanda's prints on a knife from the kitchen she was living in means nothing.

What science based forensics precludes him?

It's at least as serious as Napoleoni saw that Amanda could be framed by the ILE and Rudi could be protected. By the accounts we know anything about Rudi broke into the lawyers' with an entry that didn't include a grate but did include an alarm. The idea that his MO would be recognized by the head of the homicide squad seem absurd.

"Gee we have a rogue informant that has killed an English girl let's pin it on the American girl" just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Planigale]

Is it because I'm new, or am I failing to grasp the meaning here? Is this a serious suggestion?

If Curatolo must be ruled out in all cases, then how can his testimony be relied on to provide a constructive alibi?

Secondly, there is no more evidence against Raf than against Amanda, and they both claim to have spent the night together.

What possible value is there in constructing hypothesis for factual events like, 'Raf may have done it', that are effectively precluded by science based forensics?

It's a joke, right? And I'm just slow on the uptake? Please tell I fell for this...

It is not really a joke, but for myself I do not think this is what happened. I do however think that this is why Sollecito's lawyers would not advise him to split from Knox. This would be an easy defence for Knox to run.

i do not believe there was a conspiracy to incriminate Knox, because the evidence against Knox would have been better. As it is the only physical evidence is somewhat dubious evidence incriminating Sollecito. The people engaged with this are the forensic 'scientists'. So we have the false attribution of the shoe print as being Sollecito's. (In itself this should be the subject of at least an internal inquiry as to how the false identification came to be made.) The incompetent handling of the crime scene with probable contamination of the bra strap when collected. The weird analysis of the knife including the utterly fantastic interpretation of the PCR result of Knox's DNA on the handle indicating she held it to stab. It seems to me the lab was too eager to support the prosecution and lost objectivity. Dubious results were presented in a way to favour the prosecution rather than with fair caveats.

 

[carbonjam72]

It can't be used in any case. He is not reliable BUT if they insist on using him then he gives an alibi.

Well there is more evidence against Raf. I don't agree with it but they say his foot print in blood is on the mat. His DNA was on the the bra clasp and the knife was his. Amanda's prints on a knife from the kitchen she was living in means nothing.

What science based forensics precludes him?
It's at least as serious as Napoleoni saw that Amanda could be framed by the ILE and Rudi could be protected. By the accounts we know anything about Rudi broke into the lawyers' with an entry that didn't include a grate but did include an alarm. The idea that his MO would be recognized by the head of the homicide squad seem absurd.

"Gee we have a rogue informant that has killed an English girl let's pin it on the American girl" just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not arguing as an attorney might, responding to any and all evidence put forward by the prosecution, though I appreciate the skill. I'm trying to focus on what actually happened, using facts and evidence that are available.

What science based forensics precludes him?
There is no evidence for anyone other than Guede in the room where MK was killed. Not Raf, nor anyone else. The trace DNA evidence on the bra also contains, is it two or three, other male profiles besides Raf, for whom the same case for their physical presence could also be made, if the experts had deemed it reliable, but the independent court experts at the appeal said it was not. So why would we or anyone consider the DNA evidence credible?

If you're suggesting that Raf did participate, then are you buying into the 'staged break-in'? You'd have to, right? Because if the break-in is real, you'd have to believe Guede interrupts his rape, to open the door for Raf and invite him to participate?

My understanding is the defense experts contended it was not a physical match to Raf's footprint, that a physical rarity distinguished his second toe and precluded him from the footprint. My recollection is that it was recognized in court opinions that it wasn't Raf's footprint, but I may be wrong. I also think the prosecution conceded at some point it wasn't his bare footprint, again I may be wrong.

There is zero evidence to indicate that knife was involved in the murder, so the fact that it's Raf's is irrelevant. The bloody outline of a knife on the bedsheet also didn't match. The fact that the most recent prosecutor falsely claims its a fit, doesn't change the fact.

In short, there is no incriminating evidence against anyone but Guede, and that absence of evidence precludes anyone one else from participating. Unless you believe there was physical evidence of others, but the police failed to get it. (- my highlite here)

Rudi broke into the lawyers' with an entry that didn't include a grate but did include an alarm
On Amanda's blog, there is a photo of the lawyer's office window, and a door with metal grating, and said it could be similarly used, just as the grated window at the cottage, to assist in the climb up to the second story window of entry. A rock was also used, and I believe I recall that little neat piles of broken glass were found inside, in both cases, whilst a mess had been made of the inhabitants belongings, again in both cases. Rudy also liked to make himself at home, eating food, and so on.

It's at least as serious as Napoleoni saw that Amanda could be framed by the ILE and Rudi could be protected.

Officer Zugarini is also seen on the crime scene tape greeting Mignini when he first arrives on day one, I believe along with Napoleone (from memory). Perhaps Zugarini recognized Guede's break-in MO, it certainly appears she says something quickly to Mignini when he arrives, on the tape. And Zugarini is involved in AK's interrogation, and escorted her to prison, and awaited with Ficara outside the courthouse doors at the first conviction. Zugarini is invested in this case.

(I agree though, good catch on Napoleone as head of homicide id'ing Guede's break-in style. Doesn't mean she didn't do it, but I agree its a step further away from what we could expect from a Homicide chief, unless she had direct responsibility or some relationship to/for Guede. But Zugarini is another story, she would have been closer at street level to a 'Guede as informant', and she says something to Mignini on the video tape when he first arrives. Not proof, but an indication, perhaps? I'm asking - )

"Gee we have a rogue informant that has killed an English girl let's pin it on the American girl" just doesn't make any sense.

If not Amanda and Rafaele, then who will they blame for the crime? They have to be looking at people who live in or have an association at the house as possible suspects, yes?

I guess the question is, do you believe the prosecution's mistakes are honest? Or do you believe they know full well that Amanda and Rafaele are innocent, and prosecute them anyway, manufacturing their evidence as they go?

Were Amanda and Rafaele framed, yes or no? If yes, then when do you believe the conscious effort at framing just these two defendants began?