Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

Tony you have claimed that the tilt of the towers only began after the collapse sequence was two seconds into it's initiation.

http://youtu.be/kDvDND9zNUk?t=8m18s

Well I uploaded this video just for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ycywl1dUZ4

Please respond to this video Tony!

Oh and here is a second video.

http://youtu.be/Td7bvj9ddJw

http://youtu.be/Td7bvj9ddJw?t=1m25s <-- look how far the top moves laterally Tony!

Tony I insist you to respond to these two videos that clearly show a tilt as part of the collapse initiation sequence. The second video really shows how far laterally the top of the tower moved and it's rather incredible and completely debunks your claims regarding the collapse initiation sequence.
 
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But if the same bit of the building is analyzed with the correct elements accounted for using the same conditions that NIST used, and there is no failure of the beam girder, that invalidates NISTs collapse initiation hypothesis.
1. FTFY.
2. While your logic is right, you have not proved that. Your analysis so far is utterly incomplete, omits effects that NIST considered, and makes a number of assumptions that you haven't justified, therefore your conclusions of mistakes/malfeasance on NIST's side don't follow from your incomplete analysis. Your argument is a non-sequitur.
3. So what? The details of their probable collapse initiation hypothesis play a very minor role in their conclusions. I have shown that already and pointed you to it. And since their conclusions remain valid even if that minor aspect is changed, they stand, and this whole walk-off distance issue amounts to nitpicking.
 
So explain to me what the maximum expansion due to heat that can be experienced by a beam such as k3004 is.

As far as meaningless minutiae goes, you're asking for something that requires knowledge of all of the factors involved. I gave you a back of the hand calculation a couple weeks ago and seeing some of your posts in other threads you apparently stuck with some of the numbers rather carelessly which I cautioned against doing. I never did those calcs with the intention that they be representative of WTC 7, only to point out that some of the numbers you were having doubts about were "possible" and not out of this world.

So, if your intention is to prove that the NIST is flawed based on this kind of minutiae, I can tell you right away that you aren't going to be making a rebuttal of the NIST with simple linear thermal expansion equations. You need to cross check using information from the report to see what guidelines were used to make the apples to apples comparison. Again, I warned against using the basics on something this complicated. I made the disclaimer when I did so, for good reason.
 
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1. FTFY.
2. While your logic is right, you have not proved that. Your analysis so far is utterly incomplete, omits effects that NIST considered, and makes a number of assumptions that you haven't justified, therefore your conclusions of mistakes/malfeasance on NIST's side don't follow from your incomplete analysis. Your argument is a non-sequitur.
3. So what? The details of their probable collapse initiation hypothesis play a very minor role in their conclusions. I have shown that already and pointed you to it. And since their conclusions remain valid even if that minor aspect is changed, they stand, and this whole walk-off distance issue amounts to nitpicking.

There are so many things NIST did extra and other things they did not do in order to get the simulation to complete in less than 25 years.

Troofers have locked on to the bearing seat fable, holding on for dear life thinking it proves some sort of conspiracy. They still cannot come up with a plausible reason for why the NIST would add a seat stiffener if there was a "conspiracy to cover it up" It is comical to seem this current tag team hand wave away that item as inconsequential yet throw tantrums when their web stiffener is treated the same way.

And this has passed ay over their heads with regard to understanding exactly what NIST did.

"Temperature gradients through the depth of the steel beams and girders were affected by the presence of the floor slab. Temperatures were uniform (within 1C) across the bottom flange and web, but the top flange temperature was less by up to several hundred degrees, because the slab acted as a heat sink (see Figure 4-6 to Figure 4-8)" (pg 391 NIST NCSTAR 1-9)

Also -NIST did not model it that way....."The beam elements could model a linear temperature gradient across the section, but a uniform temperature was determined to be a reasonable approximation for the temperature profile in the beam and girder sections." (pg 392 NIST NCSTAR 1-9)
 
There are so many things NIST did extra and other things they did not do in order to get the simulation to complete in less than 25 years.

Troofers have locked on to the bearing seat fable, holding on for dear life thinking it proves some sort of conspiracy. They still cannot come up with a plausible reason for why the NIST would add a seat stiffener if there was a "conspiracy to cover it up" It is comical to seem this current tag team hand wave away that item as inconsequential yet throw tantrums when their web stiffener is treated the same way........
They are so far out of their depth and cannot see it.
Tony Sz has had it spelled out for him many times so he cannot honestly claim that he doesn't know he is wrong AND where his errors are. Whether he understands why is a separate issue. Some of the errors are simple in overview but actually quite complex in detail. gerrycan is faithfully copying Tony's errors whether as deliberate tactic of deception/evasion or simply because he genuinely has no comprehension.

But this is at least the third time this nonsense has been debated at length on this forum over recent years. The main errors or debating tricks being the ones I listed in my previous post PLUS the standard truther ploy of reversing burden of proof. "I don't understand it so you have to prove me wrong".

...And this has passed way over their heads with regard to understanding exactly what NIST did...
Absolutely. And all of it is way over their heads - not just the one example you selected. I referred to another one in a recent post. So they are not even commenting on what NIST said - only their kindergarten simplified to what they want to see version.

The NIST explanations are not perfect - never could be in this sort of situation - BUT it is obvious they cannot read them with comprehension. They are complex to follow for me and I'm no novice at this stuff.

They certainly haven't proved the two things which matter viz:
1) That NIST is in fact in error on the minor details they have identified; AND
2) That any such error is of significance to even warrant errata comment.

Even if the errors are proven they will not invalidate the whole report. And the claims of "lying" and "fraud" are childish - probably self defeating in the pragmatic world of real politic.

They are quantums away from disproving any key element of what NIST says.
 
There are so many things NIST did extra and other things they did not do in order to get the simulation to complete in less than 25 years.

Troofers have locked on to the bearing seat fable, holding on for dear life thinking it proves some sort of conspiracy. They still cannot come up with a plausible reason for why the NIST would add a seat stiffener if there was a "conspiracy to cover it up" It is comical to seem this current tag team hand wave away that item as inconsequential yet throw tantrums when their web stiffener is treated the same way.

And this has passed ay over their heads with regard to understanding exactly what NIST did.

"Temperature gradients through the depth of the steel beams and girders were affected by the presence of the floor slab. Temperatures were uniform (within 1C) across the bottom flange and web, but the top flange temperature was less by up to several hundred degrees, because the slab acted as a heat sink (see Figure 4-6 to Figure 4-8)" (pg 391 NIST NCSTAR 1-9)

Also -NIST did not model it that way....."The beam elements could model a linear temperature gradient across the section, but a uniform temperature was determined to be a reasonable approximation for the temperature profile in the beam and girder sections." (pg 392 NIST NCSTAR 1-9)

It appears to me the purpose here isn't Truth, or overturning NIST. The continued demanding of critics ON THIS FORUM to answer questions of beam length and stiffeners is merely an exercise in Counting Coup. The points scored are then used to build morale back in the echo chambers, or win new converts.

This is exactly how a Holocause Denier worked, over on the Holocaust thread. He would badger Nick Terry to name "Just one witness to the gas chambers". He used Nick's refusal to play his game in recruiting college students, saying "Nick Terry couldn't even name one witness to the gas chambers."

As Jay says, the purpose of their rhetoric is just to extend the debate, not reach a conclusion.
 
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The NIST explanations are not perfect - never could be in this sort of situation - BUT it is obvious they cannot read them with comprehension. They are complex to follow for me and I'm no novice at this stuff.

Not only is the explanation not perfect (as is expected - except for troofers)
but the report is not either. Each chapter was authored by a different group of people (with some overlap) And editing was obviously not a priority (any one that as worked with nerdy engineers will understand why.) As a result, you get lots of terms thrown about inconsistently. "Walk off" being an obvious on. Cover plates vs. "side plates" that the tag team chant about. Also the preciseness vs generalizations that are not made sufficiently clear, and or are confusing to those that do not understand the whole modeling and fire analysis process. (Remember all the claims about not heating the slab?)

In my view, it still comes back to my "box of toothpicks" that I have posted several times before. The box of 10,000 toothpicks falls to the floor and scatters. Troofers demand to know why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and if not answered to their satisfaction.....it is a cover-up conspiracy. The rest of the world wants to know why the box fell in the first place so that it can be prevented from happening again. :rolleyes:
 
Troofers demand to know why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and if not answered to their satisfaction.....it is a cover-up conspiracy.
I don't think this is the case Animal. They already believe it's a cover-up and are continually looking for mistakes to try and uncover that fatal "gotcha" that will prove it's a conspiracy. Then they can have their moment in the sun where they can say they broke the case wide open

They're not looking for mistakes to try and improve building codes or safety standards. They're hoping that correcting any mistakes found will eventually eliminate any notion of collapse by fire/damage/plane impacts and leave only controlled demolition as the viable answer.

The rest of the world wants to know why the box fell in the first place so that it can be prevented from happening again. :rolleyes:
Agreed.
 
Originally Posted by Animal View Post
Troofers demand to know why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and if not answered to their satisfaction.....it is a cover-up conspiracy.



I don't think this is the case Animal. They already believe it's a cover-up and are continually looking for mistakes to try and uncover that fatal "gotcha" that will prove it's a conspiracy. Then they can have their moment in the sun where they can say they broke the case wide open

They're not looking for mistakes to try and improve building codes or safety standards. They're hoping that correcting any mistakes found will eventually eliminate any notion of collapse by fire/damage/plane impacts and leave only controlled demolition as the viable answer.

Troofers demand to see why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and because it is not answered to their satisfaction.(never can be)....it is a cover-up conspiracy.

This is probably a better way to state it. :D
 
Troofers demand to see why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and because it is not answered to their satisfaction.(never can be)....it is a cover-up conspiracy.

This is probably a better way to state it. :D

Also, they ignore the fact that it was perched precariously on the edge of a table when a 7.5 quake hit.
 
As far as meaningless minutiae goes, you're asking for something that requires knowledge of all of the factors involved. I gave you a back of the hand calculation a couple weeks ago and seeing some of your posts in other threads you apparently stuck with some of the numbers rather carelessly which I cautioned against doing. I never did those calcs with the intention that they be representative of WTC 7, only to point out that some of the numbers you were having doubts about were "possible" and not out of this world.
Even NIST themselves stated that beyond 600C beams and girders will begin to sag and lose the ability to push. There was a very sound reason dor me asking what the MAXIMUM expansion of the beam in question would be. It is a good place to start when testing a hypothesis - the maximum, which is 5.5".

So, if your intention is to prove that the NIST is flawed based on this kind of minutiae, I can tell you right away that you aren't going to be making a rebuttal of the NIST with simple linear thermal expansion equations.
Correct.
You need to cross check using information from the report to see what guidelines were used to make the apples to apples comparison. Again, I warned against using the basics on something this complicated. I made the disclaimer when I did so, for good reason.
I am comfortable with allowing for the maximum expansion and tilting variables to the extreme in favour of NISTs hypothesis. In that instance, the girder does not fail. The question is then how did NIST manage to get it to fail in their analysis, even with the omission of some crucial elements.
 
Troofers demand to see why each toothpick landed in its exact position, and because it is not answered to their satisfaction.(never can be)....it is a cover-up conspiracy.

This is probably a better way to state it. :D
Yes. BUT remember the underlying problem is limited thinking skill - specifically their inability at reasoning to process complex multi-factor situations. Hence at least three aspects:
1) They try to treat WTC collapses as if they were single anomaly events - or, if they identify two aspects they don't (can't??) relate them into one coherent argument;
2) They (almost??) always play "reversed burden of proof" - in effect saying "I cannot think but I realise that many of you debunkers can - so over to you to do the thinking" - a back handed compliment actually but it doesn't progress THEIR understanding - because they do not (cannot??) process explanations which are multi-factor;

AND

3) for the same problem of limited reasoning skills - they don't process analogies. Including ones about boxes of toothpicks ;)
 
Yes. BUT remember the underlying problem is limited thinking skill - specifically their inability at reasoning to process complex multi-factor situations. Hence at least three aspects:
1) They try to treat WTC collapses as if they were single anomaly events - or, if they identify two aspects they don't (can't??) relate them into one coherent argument;
2) They (almost??) always play "reversed burden of proof" - in effect saying "I cannot think but I realise that many of you debunkers can - so over to you to do the thinking" - a back handed compliment actually but it doesn't progress THEIR understanding - because they do not (cannot??) process explanations which are multi-factor;

AND

3) for the same problem of limited reasoning skills - they don't process analogies. Including ones about boxes of toothpicks ;)

Agreed they all seem to exhibit various forms of fundamentally flawed reasoning in their claims and assertions.

What I find interesting though is the reality that debunkers/JREF members rarely move on to the next obvious step, to provide these people with the information and learning tools to remedy their flawed reasoning. I thought this was an educational foundation?

Perhaps providing people like Tony materials such as the following might be a better approach?

http://www.criticalthinking.org/store/products/engineering-reasoning/232

Certainly my crass whack-a-mole methodology peppered with "kick to the head" discourteous indignation isn't politically correct and thus is unacceptable here.

I can under stand this and after my comments were moved to the "Abandon All Hope" subforum I now have a handle on what is accepted as civil discourse here. I will abide to such ambiguous policy as I can only concede it's unproductive for the most part though it isn't as unproductive IMHO as the patronizing nepotistic irrelevant "circle-jerk" comments that represent many of the posts here.

The best you people can come up with regarding the flaws in Tony's reasoning is an analogy to Rainman counting toothpicks!?!

What about a truth table? What about identifying the formal and informal fallacies Tony makes use of in his reasoning? What about subjective (Bayesian) probability?

Why have I never seen ANYBODY EVER in this community break down a claim/assertion/supposition via truth-functional propositional logic using sentential calculus?

You know debunkers...

If p then q; p; therefore q

If p then q; not q; therefore not p

?

PS Understand I'm coming off of a 11 month debunk session on YouTube so I am rather irritable lol!
 
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Yes. BUT remember the underlying problem is limited thinking skill - specifically their inability at reasoning to process complex multi-factor situations. Hence at least three aspects:
1) They try to treat WTC collapses as if they were single anomaly events - or, if they identify two aspects they don't (can't??) relate them into one coherent argument;
2) They (almost??) always play "reversed burden of proof" - in effect saying "I cannot think but I realise that many of you debunkers can - so over to you to do the thinking" - a back handed compliment actually but it doesn't progress THEIR understanding - because they do not (cannot??) process explanations which are multi-factor;

AND

3) for the same problem of limited reasoning skills - they don't process analogies. Including ones about boxes of toothpicks ;)

Yep.....just like one half of the tag team did in the post preceding yours :rolleyes:
 
Yes. BUT remember the underlying problem is limited thinking skill - specifically their inability at reasoning to process complex multi-factor situations.
When faced with an explanation such as NISTs regarding the expansion of the NE floor beams, the maximum extent to which temperature can cause the beams to thermally expand should, and has been used. In the case of the longest of the beams this maximum figure is 5.5". This is less than the expansion of 6.25" that NIST has publicly stated occurred. NISTs claim of 6.25" is therefor erroneous and should be addressed.
The question that should then be asked is "would 6.25in of movement of the girder to the West induce failure."
Analysis has shown that even beyond that figure, failure would not occur. This means that there is a big problem with this particular analysis of NISTs, and when one realises that the exclusion of elements that are present in the drawings would invalidate NISTs hypothesis if included it becomes incumbent on NIST to prove their point.
You may well try to minimize the importance of the stiffener plates but they are critical in a connection such as this. Whilst I accept that the CTBUH do not agree with the wider views held within the 911 truth movement, on this issue they do not side with NIST. To that end they asked about the presence of plates on this girder in 2008, specifically questioning whether their inclusion in the design would have prevented failure. NIST did not respond to this question, and did not release the drawings until some 3-4 years later that betrayed the fact that these plates were indeed present.
A court may well view this as guilty demeanor, and would accept that the CTBUH are recognised experts in this field and order NIST to perform a new analysis including the missing elements and being open about what input variables they used.

for the same problem of limited reasoning skills - they don't process analogies. Including ones about boxes of toothpicks ;)
To accept NISTs story that the building collapsed due to thermally expanding beams in the NE of the structure without question is to believe in that which masquerades as science because of your faith in NIST. This is analogous to believing that the person sitting at the table pushed the cocktail sticks and caused them to fall, whilst observing that there is just no way for that person to have reached the box of sticks.
One who is willing to believe that the impossible happened somehow, despite having to abandon their belief in science in favour of their faith in an agency such as NIST, who have been demonstrated as flawed, has abandoned logical thought and the scientific method.
NISTs analysis is to you and your ilk that which should not be questioned. In others, even outside of the "truth movement" however, we find that those who are experts in the field of structural engineering had the logic of thought and the loyalty to science to ask the question that perhaps unwittingly hit the nail on the head.
You may lack the moral fiber, intelligence or maybe just the courage to face the possibility that may threaten your world view, but if you seek to make denials of science and logic to me, you will have to go and borrow a shred of intellectual rigor from somewhere and it is not something that i see evidence of availability of in you or your likes.
 
Why have I never seen ANYBODY EVER in this community break down a claim/assertion/supposition via truth-functional propositional logic using sentential calculus?

A) We have

B) It doesn't work.


Unless you're lock-stock-and-barrel FOR the concept of CD, you get ignored. Your points handwaved away as if they didn't exist. This happens regardless of your tone or level of education. Polite idiots and crass experts are equally detestable in the eyes of a truther.
 
You may lack the moral fiber, intelligence or maybe just the courage to face the possibility that may threaten your world view, but if you seek to make denials of science and logic to me,

LOL

The gall.

Asking someone else for logic when the "logic" you provide is totally absent. You could prove me wrong though, simply by formulating an opinion (a lucid one preferrbaly) as to WHY someone would take down WTC 7 to begin with. Your logic, and that of your peers, requires thousands of people to stick together to formulate a plan that is so fraught with error, so massivly complicated as to render it physically impossible.

Yet here you are. Trying to prove controlled demolition.
 

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