Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Bill,

My previous comment about Guede was specifically in reference to the cover, which I think is execrable. I think it is fair to point out that Rudy Guede is discussed in DD, but he is generally given the benefit of the doubt. For example, Johnson and Russell deplore the poor storage of the towels, but say that this failed to give Guede the opportunity to show that he shed blood in his own defense. Typical Pretzel Logic IMO.

What is telling about the pic of Knox on the cover, is that that is the look of someone in shock at the news of the murder of her friend and room-mate, with perhaps the shock of knowing that it very well could have been her.
 
Internet coverage of this case has sometimes been part of the problem with the wrongful conviction. However, these days the "debate" has settled into "comments sections wars" of newspieces, and a couple of websites.

These are viewing rankings I've read about for the following sites on Alexa.com (19-April-2014):

bbc.co.uk: 59
jref.org: 36,935
iaforum.com: 179,549
iip.org: 219,547
mmk.com: 262,613
tmmk.com: 285,258
ak.com: 305,111
tjmk.org: 425,720
pmf.org: 577,740
pmf.net: 719,266
This is what CaliDeeva wrote below the Tek Journalsim Harry Rag article:
"Thank you, Machiavelli. TJMK is an exceptional resource for evidence, articles and commentary.
As an sidenote, it is ranks higher on Google page rank checker [http://prchecker.info] than Bruce Fischer's injustice anywhere forum. I mention this because of Bruce's recent assertion that his site gets the most traffic. His site does not rank higher than TJMK's sister site, PerugiaMurderFileDotOrg either.
As for views/hits, the excellent archive of all transcripts and evidence, http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com has exceeded 377,530, an astounding number for a relatively young site. As for Bruce's rip-off site, the imitation URL [same title excluding "the"] speaks for itself.
Those who seek truth and evidence will find everything they need at all of the above sites. Justice4Meredith!!"​

It's not clear if Harry Rag simply spends his time purposely spreading lies (big and small) about the impact the hate sites are having, but unfortunately some people believe him. The fake-wiki themurderofmeredithkercher.com now does not outrank the one based on evidence; http://murderofmeredithkercher.com.

Do these people not "look", or do they look and then misrepresent?

Not sure what to make of the JREF ranking, as JREF is devoted to a wide range of threads on various topis.
 
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Internet coverage of this case has sometimes been part of the problem with the wrongful conviction. However, these days the "debate" has settled into "comments sections wars" of newspieces, and a couple of websites.

These are viewing rankings I've read about for the following sites on Alexa.com (19-April-2014):

bbc.co.uk: 59
jref.org: 36,935
iaforum.com: 179,549
iip.org: 219,547
mmk.com: 262,613
tmmk.com: 285,258
ak.com: 305,111
tjmk.org: 425,720
pmf.org: 577,740
pmf.net: 719,266
This is what CaliDeeva wrote below the Tek Journalsim Harry Rag article:
"Thank you, Machiavelli. TJMK is an exceptional resource for evidence, articles and commentary.
As an sidenote, it is ranks higher on Google page rank checker [http://prchecker.info] than Bruce Fischer's injustice anywhere forum. I mention this because of Bruce's recent assertion that his site gets the most traffic. His site does not rank higher than TJMK's sister site, PerugiaMurderFileDotOrg either.
As for views/hits, the excellent archive of all transcripts and evidence, http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com has exceeded 377,530, an astounding number for a relatively young site. As for Bruce's rip-off site, the imitation URL [same title excluding "the"] speaks for itself.
Those who seek truth and evidence will find everything they need at all of the above sites. Justice4Meredith!!"​

It's not clear if Harry Rag simply spends his time purposely spreading lies (big and small) about the impact the hate sites are having, but unfortunately some people believe him. The fake-wiki themurderofmeredithkercher.com now does not outrank the one based on evidence; http://murderofmeredithkercher.com.

Do these people not "look", or do they look and then misrepresent?

Not sure what to make of the JREF ranking, as JREF is devoted to a wide range of threads on various topis.


Someone might understand these figures better than I can.
A snapshot at the moment shows users browsing

IIP 1
PMF.net 6
PMF.org 14
TJMK 160.
 
Kaosium,

Of course once the mid point of the digestion curve is passed the likelihood becomes sooner than later. It wasn't a straw man because you have and do argue that no matter what time dinner was that the TOD is so highly likely to be withing 30 minutes of her returning home that the kids couldn't have been there because of Naruto.

Below is what you said and yes it's definitely a strawman. How you put it above is not, that is essentially what I'm arguing, except I'm staying within the 6:00 to 6:30 dinner ranges.

Grinder's Strawman said:
Coming back to the timing, it can't be argued genuinely that if she ate at 6 she couldn't live 30 more minutes after arriving home and make the exact same assertion if she ate at 5:30, 6:30 or 7.

I'm not making those assertions, you are. That's not my argument at all, nor was it Introna's. Incidentally, a brilliant man was once challenged by someone who pointed out that what he was saying was different that what he'd said before and he replied something to the effect of:

'When the facts change my opinion changes, how about you sir?'

You cannot conflate what Introna said under a mistaken prosecution estimate with what he said with a corrected prosecution estimate. You cannot conflate someone making an extreme hypothetical case using a number there's no evidence happened with evidence that was the time it happened.

There is no evidence the meal was at 7:00 PM.

Of course, only one person needed to be there to start it so even the computer data only alibis one person. We'll just ignore that.

Good, something that idiotic should be ignored.

I have yet to see a study that puts an end time on healthy gastric emptying, but as I said many a time the 2.5 hours from 6:30 to 8 already is on the long end and is one of the reasons I think something is off in the data.

That doesn't matter, this is something we know happened: Meredith died with 500 cc in her stomach and nothing was found in her duodenum. Reports had her eating around 6 PM. No matter what scenario you employ it must start with the actual evidence. The facts. If your scenario makes the facts unlikely, then odds are there's something wrong with your scenario, not the facts. These facts (500 cc in the stomach, nothing in the duodenum) are material and have hard evidence backing them. There might be something wrong with the estimate of the girls, in which the proper response is to use the ones most likely to produce the facts of 500 cc in the stomach and nothing in the duodenum.

Anything else is kook city, kooksville reasoning.

After eating a meal, it usually takes about 2 to 4 hours for the stomach to empty its contents. High fat foods take the longest time to empty from the stomach.

Where does this quote come from and of what possible relevance is it to this case in which how long it took to start emptying is what's at issue, not how long it takes to completely empty!

Coming back to the original assertion that the digestion makes for an alibi because the chance she was alive at 9:35 is so low as to not be considered has not been demonstrated by the science. If you will consider a 6 pm dinner you then must also consider a 9:35 TOD if she ate at 6:35 or a 10 pm TOD if she ate at 7 pm.

That's an absurd statement. There is no reason to consider a 9:35 ToD if she started eating at 6:00 PM. If she started eating at 6:00 PM that just means 9:00 is the most probable (eliminating anything before because we've evidence it didn't occur then) and 9:30 is even more out of the question than with a 6:30 meal.

Now if you refuse to accept a 6 pm dinner, then we are in agreement that we don't have the data to prove TOD from digestion.

Of course we're not in agreement, I've not managed to completely confuse myself! If the dinner was at 6:00 PM then it just more likely it was right at 9:00 PM.

Btw, it was I that suggested the meal didn't need to be 500 cc and that some of the chyme could have slipped and Randy agreed. :eek:

You weren't the one who originally suggested it. However if there was any truth to it then instead of Mignini asking Ronchi to speculate that might have happened he would have had Ronchi demonstrate that it happened. Since they did not do that the possibility must be dismissed.
 
You don't understand that computer interaction only shows that one person was there? Please explain how it could possibly prove more than one.

Did either or both of the kids say they looked at Naruto before or during the 2009 trial? There is no mention of it in Massei.

You cannot conflate what Introna said under a mistaken prosecution estimate with what he said with a corrected prosecution estimate. You cannot conflate someone making an extreme hypothetical case using a number there's no evidence happened with evidence that was the time it happened.

Huh?

I've asked you to explain what Lalli changed on Introna as you alleged before and now I ask what prosecution estimate was changed.

Introna looked at what you call facts and said that the TOD was between 21:30 and 22:30.

Here's one quote from his June 20, 2009 hearing (testimony)

Then we maximally possible range we have taken the time of his death as occurring three to four hours after the start of the assumption of the last meal that is 18.30, so the time of death to shrink between 21.30 and 22.30, not beyond.​

This was based on no chyme in duodenum and a meal that started at 6:30 and lasted until 8:30.

I've read the girls' actual testimony and they don't know when they ate. The estimates go from 5:30 to 6:30 and I saw no specific questions about when Meredith ate or how much she ate. There is no way that it is known how much she ate.

As I brought up, it is possible that in their handling of Meredith that chyme slipped past the duodenum and Randy agreed.

When someone presents alleged facts that don't make sense, one need not be a skeptic to question the alleged facts.

I've asked for the science on gastric emptying that shows the longest but as of yet you haven't provided it.

The quote on 2 to 4 hours for complete emptying is relevant because emptying must begin before it can finish and it demonstrates that 3 hours or even 2.5 hours is hard to believe for a starting time.

We clearly have at least a range of the girls' testimony of 5:30 to 6:30 for the pizza to be ready and the start of the meal by some of them. You clearly used 6 at some point. How much more likely is a 9:30 TOD with the 6:30 meal time than the 6 meal time?

Do you understand that if you accept 3 hours for the 6 pm meal time that it is just as possible for the 6:30 meal?

Let's put it this way: if there was only a 1% chance that Meredith could have eaten at 6 and not begun to empty by 9 then it is beyond a reasonable doubt she didn't eat at 6.

Randy - Did Rolfe publish something under her real name on this case?

While it is true that it more difficult to get into Vet school that's because there are so few of them I love my vet and think the world of him. They don't have much to go on for diagnosis which certainly makes for a different challenge than working on people except babies. One advantage for vets is that dogs rarely read on the Internet and don't develop symptoms as a result.

“It is harder to get into vet school than it is to get into human medical school.”
Surprise! This is NOT a myth. There are only 29 schools of veterinary medicine in North America and there are 160+ schools for the study of human medicine. The lack of availability of seats for students who wish to study non-human medicine makes it very challenging to be admitted. Each year around 15,000 students apply for about 2500 – 2600 seats for entering DVM students.​

It seems to me that Rolfe's position is that emptying should have started much earlier and hasn't commented on Lalli's work or the time of dinner.

Whether medical researchers for humans or doctors or vets I'd love to see a paper written on this issue specific to this case.
 
You don't understand that computer interaction only shows that one person was there? Please explain how it could possibly prove more than one.


Why is Raffaele's alibi for Amanda not accepted as evidence that she had not gone out?


Did either or both of the kids say they looked at Naruto before or during the 2009 trial? There is no mention of it in Massei.


Frank mentions it in October 2008 before the Massei trial. Why does it not come up in Massei?
 
You don't understand that computer interaction only shows that one person was there? Please explain how it could possibly prove more than one.

Did either or both of the kids say they looked at Naruto before or during the 2009 trial? There is no mention of it in Massei.



Huh?

I've asked you to explain what Lalli changed on Introna as you alleged before and now I ask what prosecution estimate was changed.

Introna looked at what you call facts and said that the TOD was between 21:30 and 22:30.

Here's one quote from his June 20, 2009 hearing (testimony)

Then we maximally possible range we have taken the time of his death as occurring three to four hours after the start of the assumption of the last meal that is 18.30, so the time of death to shrink between 21.30 and 22.30, not beyond.​

This was based on no chyme in duodenum and a meal that started at 6:30 and lasted until 8:30.

I've read the girls' actual testimony and they don't know when they ate. The estimates go from 5:30 to 6:30 and I saw no specific questions about when Meredith ate or how much she ate. There is no way that it is known how much she ate.

As I brought up, it is possible that in their handling of Meredith that chyme slipped past the duodenum and Randy agreed.

When someone presents alleged facts that don't make sense, one need not be a skeptic to question the alleged facts.

I've asked for the science on gastric emptying that shows the longest but as of yet you haven't provided it.

The quote on 2 to 4 hours for complete emptying is relevant because emptying must begin before it can finish and it demonstrates that 3 hours or even 2.5 hours is hard to believe for a starting time.

We clearly have at least a range of the girls' testimony of 5:30 to 6:30 for the pizza to be ready and the start of the meal by some of them. You clearly used 6 at some point. How much more likely is a 9:30 TOD with the 6:30 meal time than the 6 meal time?

Do you understand that if you accept 3 hours for the 6 pm meal time that it is just as possible for the 6:30 meal?

Let's put it this way: if there was only a 1% chance that Meredith could have eaten at 6 and not begun to empty by 9 then it is beyond a reasonable doubt she didn't eat at 6.

Randy - Did Rolfe publish something under her real name on this case? While it is true that it more difficult to get into Vet school that's because there are so few of them I love my vet and think the world of him. They don't have much to go on for diagnosis which certainly makes for a different challenge than working on people except babies. One advantage for vets is that dogs rarely read on the Internet and don't develop symptoms as a result.

“It is harder to get into vet school than it is to get into human medical school.”
Surprise! This is NOT a myth. There are only 29 schools of veterinary medicine in North America and there are 160+ schools for the study of human medicine. The lack of availability of seats for students who wish to study non-human medicine makes it very challenging to be admitted. Each year around 15,000 students apply for about 2500 – 2600 seats for entering DVM students.​

It seems to me that Rolfe's position is that emptying should have started much earlier and hasn't commented on Lalli's work or the time of dinner.

Whether medical researchers for humans or doctors or vets I'd love to see a paper written on this issue specific to this case.


Nothing that I am aware of. She may have published something but I don't see where she needs to go public with her real ID to give an opinion on JREF.

I also think that Rolfe has an advanced degree in pathology. (I could be wrong) That is something one simply does not earn in a few semesters study.

It always amused me when Yummi compared Stefanoni to Carla Vecchiotti and even tried to infer that V was somehow less qualified. The truth is that the comparison is closer comparing the dishwasher in the hospital cafeteria to the lead brain surgeon.

A pathologist is a highly trained specialty... often 20 years or more to become fully qualified. Meanwhile we are certain that Stefanoni has a 4 year degree...maybe 5 years if we give her the benefit of doubt.

Lali would have additional decision making tools available to him had he been allowed access to the body immediately. Measuring the drop in body temperature, the degree of rigidity (rigor mortis), the degree of discoloration (livor mortis or lividity), the stage of body decomposition, stomach contents, and other factors...all tools bungled in this case for some strange reason.

Finally I found this rather general idea about digestion and TOD. Good enough to allow the data to be used along with other circumstantial pieces so as to make a reasonably accurate TOD conclusion.

"Stomach Contents:
The ME can often use the contents of the victims stomach to help determine time of death. After a meal, the stomach empties itself in approximately 4 to 6 hours, depending on the type and amount of food ingested. If a victim stomach contains largely undigested food material, then the death likely occurred within an hour or two of the meal. If the stomach is empty, the death likely occurred more than six hours after eating. Additionally, if the small intestine is also empty, death probably occurred some 12 hours or more after the last meal."

I understand they speak about empty times...but this gives more fuel for the fire. :-)

Personally, I don't need a TOD fixed to exonerate AK and RS. There is simply nothing in evidence that is valid that includes them. The luminol prints are a joke. The two DNA traces are worse than a joke. The finger prints...OH wait there are no fingerprints. Well the footprints...wait...no foot prints either. Shoe Prints? No. Semen? Nope. Ahhh but the mixed DNA....ahhaaa. AAAA choo spit, hack, cough...nope.

Meanwhile lies, leaks, intimidation, scandalous fake stories, and crazy as bat crap judicial logic or rather the lack of such is enough to make fairly accurate conclusions as to what happened here.

I don't even need to mention the missing tapes, burned hard drives, fake stupid witnesses, and record of the historical crazy prosecutions by the lead prosecutor Mignini...and his clairvoyant Carlizzi...plus some dead priest. :-)
 
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You don't understand that computer interaction only shows that one person was there? Please explain how it could possibly prove more than one.

I didn't say that, I think it absurd to assume it doesn't alibi both people due to the fact they alibi each other. If Raffaele wasn't involved, Amanda wasn't involved or vis-versa.

Did either or both of the kids say they looked at Naruto before or during the 2009 trial? There is no mention of it in Massei.

Who cares? Maybe they didn't watch it, he just hit something on his keyboard and it started and played in the background. That sort of thing happens to me all the time when on the computer, I try to hit something and another program starts and I don't notice it because what I am trying to do pops up and I don't know/don't care the other one is running. It proves a human was interacting with the keyboard.



Huh?

I've asked you to explain what Lalli changed on Introna as you alleged before and now I ask what prosecution estimate was changed.

Lalli's estimate was originally 3-4 hours, he corrected it to 2-3 hours. Dan-O cited it about a month ago.

Introna looked at what you call facts and said that the TOD was between 21:30 and 22:30.

Here's one quote from his June 20, 2009 hearing (testimony)

Then we maximally possible range we have taken the time of his death as occurring three to four hours after the start of the assumption of the last meal that is 18.30, so the time of death to shrink between 21.30 and 22.30, not beyond.​


This was based on no chyme in duodenum and a meal that started at 6:30 and lasted until 8:30.

6:30 + 3 hours = 9:30. 6:30 + 4 hours = 10:30. Simple, basic math, showing the prosecutions numbers didn't add up. When you use the corrected estimate of 2-3 hours it becomes 8:30-9:30 and then something interesting happens: since you have good reason to think it didn't happen before 9:00 PM you can ignore that possibility (you have new data!) and just take into account the probabilities of it occurring from 9:00 to 9:30. It just so happens that perfectly splits the bell curve (8:30-9:00 would be the left of the curve 9:00-9:30 would be the right of the curve--this is an unskewed bell curve btw) and when you just take the right of the curve the probabilities automatically go down and they'll be 'bunched up' towards the beginning (which was the middle of the bell curve before you split it) as it's not linear.


I've read the girls' actual testimony and they don't know when they ate. The estimates go from 5:30 to 6:30 and I saw no specific questions about when Meredith ate or how much she ate. There is no way that it is known how much she ate.

I've read that they said she wasn't feeling well and didn't eat much as a result that night and it's why she went home early. I don't know exactly where it came from, perhaps their interviews with Mignini or something they said to the press or someone else like Follain. At any rate 500 cc is compatible with what a slender young woman like Meredith would consume, there's no real reason to think anything was missing. If it was 200 cc that was found you'd have a better argument.

As I brought up, it is possible that in their handling of Meredith that chyme slipped past the duodenum and Randy agreed.

I believe it is possible. However we have absolutely no reason to think that occurred and reason to think it did not: there wasn't much which could be missing.

When someone presents alleged facts that don't make sense, one need not be a skeptic to question the alleged facts.

Meredith eating at 6:30 means that her not passing anything to her duodenum by 9:00 PM amounts to about rolling snake eyes on the dice, it's not something that requires an investigation of whether they're loaded or not. Only by moving the dinner time back from there do you make it less likely, which means since that's kinda fuzzy anyway that it's probably not a good idea to do that.

I've asked for the science on gastric emptying that shows the longest but as of yet you haven't provided it.

You've posted the abstract for the longest we've found in any trial, the German one (Hellvig et al?) published in that medical journal. That includes the outlier of 200 minutes.

The quote on 2 to 4 hours for complete emptying is relevant because emptying must begin before it can finish and it demonstrates that 3 hours or even 2.5 hours is hard to believe for a starting time.

Maybe that's an indication that 2-4 hours isn't any sort of absolute estimate. ;)

We clearly have at least a range of the girls' testimony of 5:30 to 6:30 for the pizza to be ready and the start of the meal by some of them. You clearly used 6 at some point. How much more likely is a 9:30 TOD with the 6:30 meal time than the 6 meal time?

Significant. It's not quite as dramatic as LJ's chart as the curve is skewed to the right, but it's not linear thus the curve is not flat.

Just a quick example of what I mean when I say it's not linear. That would look like this if you broke it down to half hour intervals:

1st half hour--33 1/3%
2nd half hour-33 1/3%
3rd half hour--33 1/3%

This is more what it would look like with a bell curve skewed to the right, note it's not as dramatic as LJ's because of the skew:

1st half hour--60%
2nd half hour--30%
3rd half hour--10%

It would decline each minute so it would start with 9:00 being about 3%, 9:01 about 2.85 % 9:02 2.75% 9:03 2.68% etc, declining down to the end. You'll be at or below 1% for the last minutes because you are at the very end of the curve. There's actually no data after 200 minutes.

Do you understand that if you accept 3 hours for the 6 pm meal time that it is just as possible for the 6:30 meal?

Let's put it this way: if there was only a 1% chance that Meredith could have eaten at 6 and not begun to empty by 9 then it is beyond a reasonable doubt she didn't eat at 6.

Which is an excellent reason to think they started eating later. The 500 cc and nothing in the duodenum is harder evidence than their vague remembrances. Trying to conflate the importance of something that happened (Meredith had 500 cc's in her stomach and nothing in her duodenum) with something unknown is where I think you make your mistake. One of them has hard evidence suggesting it happened and the other is a maybe, you cannot conflate the relevance of the two to the extent you're willing to believe the dice must be loaded because under a different scenario (6:00 dinner start instead of 6:30) the one that happened (500 cc in the stomach and nothing in the duodenum) would be as unlikely as a 9:30 ToD (a maybe) with a 6:30 start time.

The simpler way of putting it is if Meredith died at 9:00, then it shouldn't be a surprise that the evidence suggests that was more probable than 9:30 no matter what you do and the most probable scenario that accounts for all the evidence is that she started eating around 6:30 and was attacked around 9:00 PM. Trying to move the meal back to make a 9:00 attack time as improbable as something that didn't actually happen (9:30+ ToD) and thus saying it all must be worthless is a 'user error.'

One invented by Bunnies to dupe the unwary. It makes sense to some people but it's entirely specious. That's why I will not let this go: you called Introna's argument specious and you were wrong and I will not let bunny droppings go unchallenged anymore if I have the time to get into it. :)
 
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ToD

About the time of death discussion, from Frank Sfarzo, back in Dec. 2009, right before Raff and Amanda were 1st convicted:

Time of death
There weren't mushrooms in the fridge, Knox lawyers reminds (not cooked, at least). So, where did Meredith get the mushroom she allegedly ate? Dr Lalli only said, presumed mushroom, since he didn't know she didn't eat any. It must be a slice of apple, that she ate with her friends. If the piece of apple was still in the esophagus that means that Mez was attacked early, very early.Dalla Vedova implies that the murderer was already in the house when Meredith came back. And why nobody saw him breaking and entering? Because the few people around there either didn't even notice there was a house --as one of them testified-- or they just didn't pay attention.

Thoughts, Grinder?
 
He says she was on her right side facing the wardrobe. That would place her in front of the wardrobe with her feet towards the bed.




What if the sweat shirt had been pulled down without unzipping it? That would trap her hands at her sides rendering them useless to stop the knife attack or to stop the bleeding. If she is on her knees at the time of the stabbing her pants are mostly out do the way.





After Rudy stabbed Meredith, his hands were covered with blood. His bloody hand leaves the streaks on the wall, the bloody knife leaves it's mark on the bed and he is forced to open the bedroom door with a bloody hand leaving blood on the handle and door. Meredith is restrained and bleeding in front of the wardrobe while Rudy leaves to quickly wash up and grab towels.

Meredith is then dragged to the center of the room. Rudy grabs her pants by the cuffs and they pull off causing the underpants to roll up and pull off. He then grabs the jacket to pull her around and it pulls off over her headis and in the process reversing the sleeves and rolling up the sweetshirts. Meredith is now on her left side and in extreme shock. Rudy lifts her onto the pillow on the floor by grabing the bra strap behind her left sholder with one hand and grabbing the inner thigh of her right leg with the other hand. The bra comes apart as we have seen and Rudy's right hand slips causing his thumb to enter the forbidden zone.

Rudy flipps the duvet over Meredith and walks out leaving a trail of bloody shoeprints. Meredith suffocating on her own blood buried under the duvet can muster only enough strength to raise her left hand at the elbow trying to push away the cover of her tomb.

How long did all this take from the start of the assault till Rudy came back to the room for the keys and then left the cottage? I'd say it was just a few minutes.


Note that in this scenario there was not even a suggestion of sexual motive in the undressing and no rape. It was all just accidental. Rudy appears to suffer from a severe dissociative disorder and may not ever recognize what he had done. He was just clumsily going through motions of what his mind in this state thought needed to be done. With the authorities supporting Rudy's partial innocence he is not going to be treated for this condition. He will soon be a walking ticking time bomb just waiting for a similar setting to trigger another attack. Who are they going to blame the next on on?

Guede's right hand slips causing his thumb to enter the forbidden zone?

This scenario seems pretty far fetched. If Guede was not intending to sexually assault her, why did he undress her?

Also it is not probable that pulling off her jeans would cause her underwear to come all the way off.

This scenario also ignores the possible semen stain that was dated at the time of the attack because Guede stepped in it.

The evidence shows that Guede sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher. Theorizing that his thumb just happened to slip into the "forbidden zone" does not seem logical to me.
 
Re: Hyoid Bone

I seem to recall that one of the pathologists (Torre?) changed his mind about what had happened to the hyoid bone (whether cut or fractured?). It might be worth trawling through Perugia Shock in 2009.


Thanks for the info Prof. Halkides,
I'm having a look on PS right now.

ETA:
Found it!
Tuesday, July 7, 2009
Professor Carlo Torre confirms

A LONE MURDERER
And a frontal attack

You folks should read this article, here's a link just scroll on down:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100806235828/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html

Interesting to read this after Hendry's theory...
 
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Have you seen these wounds? If you are defending yourself agains a knife you aren't going to get little pricks on your hands.

I occasionally get little pricks on my hands and arms and it has nothing to do with knives. Cats sometimes get too playful and they go into attack mode where they grab and hold your hand. The claws come out in this maneuver and they will often leave marks. The will also do this if you are doing something they don't like such as cleaning a wound when they don't trust what you are doing.

I have seen the wounds and Meredith definitely had defensive wounds on her hands from a knife.
 
The 3rd?

I'm done for the night, but I'm adding this for thought,
found in old Perugia Shock in 2009, have a read:

They said they didn't know who Patrick was on the 5th. But on the 3rd Amanda told them she was working at Le Chic. And who owned Le Chic?
They proved to have done a 360° investigation. They checked all Umbrian hospitals, they went to Marche, to Puglia, to Milan, to Bergamo. And they didn't go to Le Chic?
They said they had already focused on Amanda (they had attentionated her...). Indeed they were wiretapping her not only on the phone, which is normal, but even in the environment. And they didn't check the registry to see who owned Le Chic?


Have a good one,
RW
 
Diocletus said:
MOHAMMAD EGBARIA, Israeli student of Agricultural and boyfriend of RAW SOFIA, claimed to know RUDI, but had seen the last time October 24 or so: recalled that he had received a phone call from a different number than usual , October 27, with the GUEDE to say who was in Milan and that it would be returned the next day.
-from Micheli
.
Interesting, to me at least.

The phone record, including both phone numbers, for that phone call from Rudy to Mr. Egbaria should still be available in the telephone company's archives.

I wonder if the phone Rudy was using was stolen, and could be traced to a burglary? Perhaps one we have not heard about yet?

I also wonder what other phone calls, and to whom, Rudy might have made with that same phone? Even on the night of the murder. That information should be discoverable.

Most of all, I wonder if that phone Rudy was using might by chance also be the one that made the bomb threat phone call? That record should also be available. A match could be Raffaele and Amanda's get out of jail free card.

Seriously, that phone number could be a gold mine of information.
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Kaosium answered Grinders devils advocacy this way, and I am doing this deliberately from memory

1. The chyme could have slipped
Answer. No, the stomach contents correlated with a meal likely to be consumed by a slim young woman, in this case 500 mil, and its components were identifiable
2. The Naruto cartoon gives an alibi to only one.
Answer. The alibis are supposedly mutual, but Grinder is technically correct. However that contention places the burden of innocence to be proven beyond any doubt.
This precludes reasonable doubt as a judicial concept.
 
Guede's right hand slips causing his thumb to enter the forbidden zone?

This scenario seems pretty far fetched. If Guede was not intending to sexually assault her, why did he undress her?


That's the whole point of the scenario I presented. He didn't undress her, the clothes just came off as he was trying to move her. You are trying to ascribe normal behaviors to Guede when his actions are so far outside norm we don't have a measure for them. Why would anybody undress a girl the was dying after they slit her throat?


Also it is not probable that pulling off her jeans would cause her underwear to come all the way off.


I'm simply trying to account for the fact that the underpants were rolled which indicates they were pulled down when the pants were pulled off. If he were trying to undress her the tshirts would not have gotten rolled up. And if he had removed the jacked and then rolled up the tshirts he would not have them reverted to brute strength to remove the bra but rather unclipped it and taken it off intact. All of resulting evidence is accounted for by the simple motions of a zombie trying to move her body. It may not be probable for the underpants to come all the way off in that scenario. I would expect them to end up on her left leg after the third lift that tore off the bra. Perhaps at that point it simply looked out of place and rather than try to put them back on the zombie Guede pulled them the rest of the way off.


This scenario also ignores the possible semen stain that was dated at the time of the attack because Guede stepped in it.


Do you have a visualization problem? Try visualizing this scenario: 1) Meredith Kercher's mostly lifeless body 2) Lying with a pillow under her pelvis 3) Semen deposited on the pillow between her legs 4) And a foot steping in that fresh semen deposit and transferring it to the centr of the pillow. Were you able to visualize all of that or is your visualization stack limited and you dropped number 1 before getting to number 4? I covered this in the earlier post. If Rudy deposited semen on that pillow it was done before Meredith was placed there. That almost necessitates that it happened before Meredith came home unless you accept Rudy's claim that he had a date and they were just fooling around.


The evidence shows that Guede sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher. Theorizing that his thumb just happened to slip into the "forbidden zone" does not seem logical to me.


Are you saying that sexual assault of a dying incapacitated girl seems logical? The whole of the evidence of sexual assault is that Meredith was naked and Rudy's DNA was found inside her. Any attempted sexual assault puts Rudy very close to this spurting neck wound and Meredith coughing out blood. Rudy would have blood spray all over his upper body. I just don't see that hapening in any reality. The most I can see is digital penetration and I don't see any rational for that so I posit the accident.
 
Peter Quennell says of Machiavelli's bathmat analysis

Yummi’s great post could have been subtitled “beyond a reasonable doubt” as this one key area of the evidence could all by itself have seen US and UK juries vote for guilt.

Assuming that is his real name, then I think his statement should be critically analysed.

I reckon this is one fuzzy footprint, and PQ should be hauled in front of a grand jury American style before getting away with this. Clearly I do not understand American process, but I am sure posters here can elucidate.
 
Seriously, that phone number could be a gold mine of information.


Don't you think a component law enforcement agency would have traced those call records the moment they learned about them? Even the Italians would have tracked these down if there was a possibility they could find a link to Amanda. Look what they wrote on Amanda's phone record. They were disparate to find anything linking the American to this crime. So the question becomes, why are these records not known? Is this another case of information helpfull to the defense just disappearing?
 
Peter Quennell says of Machiavelli's bathmat analysis

Yummi’s great post could have been subtitled “beyond a reasonable doubt” as this one key area of the evidence could all by itself have seen US and UK juries vote for guilt.

Assuming that is his real name, then I think his statement should be critically analysed.

I reckon this is one fuzzy footprint, and PQ should be hauled in front of a grand jury American style before getting away with this. Clearly I do not understand American process, but I am sure posters here can elucidate.


That shows one of the key differences between the guilter sites and the skeptics sites. Here we attack each others theories mercilessly because it is only through critical analysis and open debate that we have any hope of settling on the truth. There it's all about patting each other on the back.

We reached the conclusion of innocence not because we started there and found evidence to support our belief but because the evidence excludes all but the most insane theories of guilt. Even the guilters won't venture to put forward a complete theory that fits the known facts.
 
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