Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[TheRealnz]

Ukraine is coming apart, let it fall apart and it would end with only an issue within the borders of the Ukraine. If the people there want a unified state or seperate state they should work/fight/die for it, if the people want to be with Russia and Russia agrees let them join.

If that occurs the sphere of activity is only limited to the geographic area of Ukraine.
Sending Western troops to Poland in a attempt to intimidate Russia and bolster opposition in Ukraine is what actually expands the scope of conflict and brings more people in, not staying neutral and out of the situation entirely.

As for anti-semites, it is known there are anti-semites on both sides. The question is why was the US out supporting and funding one group of anti-semites and backing them in a coup of an elected government?

Some claim russia is involved, others say Russia isn't involved at all and it is Ukranians on the east simply upraising. Eastern Ukranians claim the US has sent military contractors in to fight on behest of the Ukranian installed government.

The best thing to do is to de-escalate. Pull NATO away from Russia (which is the primary reason for all the tension in the first place, the US trying to isolate Russia) and for the west to stop meddling in situations that doesn't involve it.

 

[TheRealnz]

As for Crimea the referendum I'd like to add.

International observers found Crimea elections fair and free.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...free-and-fair/

Press TV’s Roshan Muhammed Salih who was present in Crimea for more than 10 days at the election days believes the vote to be completely just.


"People were voting freely and fairly and out of genuine conviction, and scenes like this [high turnout] were repeated all across Crimea with the eventual outcome being in no doubt” said Salih.

http://www.eode.org/eode-press-offic...nal-observers/
Voting process was held in free manner, the voters were not forced to participate in or ignore the referendum, or to vote for concrete option. Freedom of speech and thought were guaranteed. Personal will of voters was not controlled by the Commission. Referendum administration kept the secret of voting and took all necessary measures for respecting it by the all participants of the referendum.

 

[LSSBB]

As for Crimea the referendum I'd like to add.

International observers found Crimea elections fair and free.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...free-and-fair/



http://www.eode.org/eode-press-offic...nal-observers/
Voting process was held in free manner, the voters were not forced to participate in or ignore the referendum, or to vote for concrete option. Freedom of speech and thought were guaranteed. Personal will of voters was not controlled by the Commission. Referendum administration kept the secret of voting and took all necessary measures for respecting it by the all participants of the referendum.

PressTV

 

[uke2se]

PressTV

Yeah, that's pretty hysterical.

 

[LSSBB]

Yeah, that's pretty hysterical.

Worse yet, EODE. Who was complaining about fascists in Ukraine? How about neo-Nazi election observers?

 

[uke2se]

Ukraine is coming apart, let it fall apart and it would end with only an issue within the borders of the Ukraine. If the people there want a unified state or seperate state they should work/fight/die for it, if the people want to be with Russia and Russia agrees let them join.

No, let's not allow an major power with imperial ambitions gut its neighbors.

If that occurs the sphere of activity is only limited to the geographic area of Ukraine.

So as long as it doesn't directly affect you you don't care?

Sending Western troops to Poland in a attempt to intimidate Russia and bolster opposition in Ukraine is what actually expands the scope of conflict and brings more people in, not staying neutral and out of the situation entirely.

Complete BS. What is escalating the conflict is the flagrant disregard Russia has for other countries' territorial sovereignty.

As for anti-semites, it is known there are anti-semites on both sides. The question is why was the US out supporting and funding one group of anti-semites and backing them in a coup of an elected government?

Prove the US government funded the Euro-Maidan protests.

Also, the reason for why the West backed the non anti-semites in the new Ukrainian government against Russian aggression is because we remember what happened in the 1930s.

Some claim russia is involved,

Almost everyone says that.

others say Russia isn't involved at all and it is Ukranians on the east simply upraising.

Russia says this.

Eastern Ukranians claim the US has sent military contractors in to fight on behest of the Ukranian installed government.

Prove it.

The best thing to do is to de-escalate.

Russia first.

Pull NATO away from Russia (which is the primary reason for all the tension in the first place, the US trying to isolate Russia) and for the west to stop meddling in situations that doesn't involve it.

You've got cause and effect all mixed up. NATO is moving East because Putin's Russia is behaving like an imperial power from the 19th century.

 

[uke2se]

Worse yet, EODE. Who was complaining about fascists in Ukraine? How about neo-Nazi election observers?

I'm not familiar with EODE.

What do you have to say about this, TheRealnz?

ETA: Looked up EODE. It's neo-Nazis alright. TheRealnz's got some 'splainin to do.

 

[TheRealnz]

PressTV

What wasn't fair about the elections in Crimea? You don't think they want to be part of Russia?

I agree that a region by region referendum is the only way to solve this peacefully and democratically. But it's something the neo-Nazis in Kiev and NATO won't ever agree to.




As for you Uke, you will get your reply soon!

 

[uke2se]

What wasn't fair about the elections in Crimea?

It was held while the region was under occupation.

It wasn't monitored by any impartial election monitors (no, your neo-Nazis don't count)

To say that the results are implausible is an understatement.

You don't think they want to be part of Russia?

It doesn't really matter what "they" wanted (the Russian speaking majority of Crimea). The legal way of doing it would be to hold a nation-wide referendum while not under occupation.

I agree that a region by region referendum is the only way to solve this peacefully and democratically. But it's something the neo-Nazis in Kiev and NATO won't ever agree to.

I'm sorry, but the neo-Nazis support Putin, as you ably demonstrated with your link.

As for you Uke, you will get your reply soon!

I'm trembling in anticipation.

 

[eirik]

Hey, I can not name names too. Some people here care about the integrity and meaning of language. One at least does not. That one is, I wouldn't say a Fascist (I just don't know) but at least an unwitting supporter of Fascism and its rise in West Ukraine. And I'll note that a person 's wittingness is partly of their own making - ignorance like this has to be at least partly of the willful sort.

But it's just funny to see how, still, you know Fascism is something bad. And so you use it as an insult for people who are pretty much the opposite of Fascist in their thinking. SOme people do this because of the clever inversion - those who think they're anti-Fascist are actually Fascists! (recalls JBS line that since Nazi called themselves National Socialists, left-wing socialism was the whole problem with both sides in WWII) But some things - like both these arguments - are just too "clever" to be true.

And in case you fall back on that, making it small f fascism doesn't much change the stupidity of your statements.

It's really not that complicated. If you support Putin, you support fascism.

Dughin- style pure unadulterated crazy time fascism, bragging how he have accomplished to combine the arguably worst of fascism, socialism, religious oppression and yes nazism.

The fourth something something , and the backbone of Putin's imperialistic ambition Eurasia.

 

[eirik]

I disagree that this is equivalent. What is missing is context.

Euro-Maidan started as unarmed protests. They were cracked down upon by armed government forces, and after a while, the protesters started to arm themselves.

Further, Euro-Maidan wanted Yanukovych out. They did not want parts of the country to separate and join another country.

The thugs in the Eastern Ukraine started by arming themselves and occupying government buildings, taking hostages. They did pretty much exactly what the thugs in Crimea did.

So, we have a difference in method and we have a difference in expected outcome. There's no equivalence.

Exactly.

 

[trustbutverify]

There's a difference between those who claim to stand for progressive values, and those who actually do. Stalinists fall into the former category.

Actually, I think a case can easily be made that not only did Stalin truly believe himself to be a Leftist

What Stalin believed or didn't believe about himself has nothing to do with my comment.

(and to be honest, using the words "progressive values" is moving the goalposts because Dcdrac said "a true left winger", not the more nebulous "true progressive")

Since I consider having progressive values a prerequisite for being a "true left winger", there's no goalpost moving. There might be a disagreement between you and I about what constitutes a true left winger, of course.

but his supporters had impeccable Leftist credentials. You obviously underestimate the level of support that Stalin had among nearly all of the European left, such as the Fabians and George Bernard Shaw and Jean-Paul Sartre were supporters of Stalin (some of them were short-lived supporters, such as Bertrand Russell and H.G Wells to be sure).

I believe there was a significant Trotskyite presence in Europe during Stalin's reign, not to mention other leftist opposition. Regardless of impeccable leftist credentials, I'd say anyone supporting Stalinism after the post war euphoria, as more credible information became available, would be disqualified for membership in the "true left". Of course, that all depends on how someone defines that subjective phrase.

 

[LSSBB]

What wasn't fair about the elections in Crimea? You don't think they want to be part of Russia?

I agree that a region by region referendum is the only way to solve this peacefully and democratically. But it's something the neo-Nazis in Kiev and NATO won't ever agree to.




As for you Uke, you will get your reply soon!

I'm not claiming they weren't fair, at least in execution of method, counting, etc. I did not participate as an observer, nor have I reviewed reports by independent observers. In my opinion, the questions were not worded fairly, and were shadowed by force, so I don't think it was. You are claiming they were fair, using biased sources. I don't think that is a valid basis to make that claim.

 

[TheRealnz]

No, let's not allow an major power with imperial ambitions gut its neighbors.



So as long as it doesn't directly affect you you don't care?



Complete BS. What is escalating the conflict is the flagrant disregard Russia has for other countries' territorial sovereignty.



Prove the US government funded the Euro-Maidan protests.

Also, the reason for why the West backed the non anti-semites in the new Ukrainian government against Russian aggression is because we remember what happened in the 1930s.



Almost everyone says that.



Russia says this.



Prove it.



Russia first.



You've got cause and effect all mixed up. NATO is moving East because Putin's Russia is behaving like an imperial power from the 19th century.

How is the EODE a neo-nazi group. Present some backing for that.
I find it hard to believe seeing that on their site you can see the orgnization is involved in monitoring elections in various african nations, and in east europe.

What stopped the US from gutting Iraq, Syria, Libya, various latin american nations, the phillipines, and etc? Sorry but aggressive states will be aggressive and usually invade nations where it makes economic sense, regardless of anyone else. It seems foolish to me to engage in international wars so people can die for the political ambitions and reputations of their leaders and for lands they don't live in.

So long as military action between nations has no direct effect on the safety of the geographic US I can see no reason why US money and lives need to be wasted.

Boosting NATO troop presence around Russia is very clearly an act of aggression, especially if we look at NATO claiming that Russia boosting troops on its Ukranian border as an act of aggression.

Can I source what eastern ukrainians have said? Sure here you go.
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-blackw...es-russia-794/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Donetsk.html

Russia doesn't have to de-escalate for the US/NATO to do so. They could do that themselves with no need from anything from Russa.

Hard to claim I have the cause and effect mixed up and then claim its because of Putin, when NATO was expanding in Russia's back yard when Yeltsin was in office.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../yeltsin24.htm

 

[LSSBB]

How is the EODE a neo-nazi group. Present some backing for that.
I find it hard to believe seeing that on their site you can see the orgnization is involved in monitoring elections in various african nations, and in east europe.

What stopped the US from gutting Iraq, Syria, Libya, various latin american nations, the phillipines, and etc? Sorry but aggressive states will be aggressive and usually invade nations where it makes economic sense, regardless of anyone else. It seems foolish to me to engage in international wars so people can die for the political ambitions and reputations of their leaders and for lands they don't live in.

So long as military action between nations has no direct effect on the safety of the geographic US I can see no reason why US money and lives need to be wasted.

Boosting NATO troop presence around Russia is very clearly an act of aggression, especially if we look at NATO claiming that Russia boosting troops on its Ukranian border as an act of aggression.

Can I source what eastern ukrainians have said? Sure here you go.
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-blackw...es-russia-794/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Donetsk.html

Russia doesn't have to de-escalate for the US/NATO to do so. They could do that themselves with no need from anything from Russa.

Hard to claim I have the cause and effect mixed up and then claim its because of Putin, when NATO was expanding in Russia's back yard when Yeltsin was in office.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../yeltsin24.htm

Who are the people behind EODE? Hint: one major one is Belgian.

ETA: start here: http://m.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies

 

[NoahFence]

I don't think I ever reminded you about why you should take me seriously before. Thing is that I don't write for kittens who refuse to do their homework even in much more trivial areas. You're just not my target audience, so feel free to have a giggle.

Your target audience is full of numbskulls. Thanks for the compliment.

 

[angrysoba]

Author: Luke Harding. One of their hardcore propagandists. Don't believe a word. Next they fly in Martin Chulov.

All these types, Robert Engel, Luke Harding, for SPIEGEL Raniah Salloum, have a terrible track record in Syria or (as Harding) elsewhere. Eli Lake is very busy at the Daily Beast as well. Their recyclement speaks for the small group of people willing to do such an ugly job.

I know you aren't yet ready to believe it, angrysoba, but the most ridiculous foreign policy propaganda happens in outlets like the Guardian, SPIEGEL, and NPR, NYT, WaPo for the Yankistanis. Just an advice to keep your eyes open.

Don't believe a word? What was wrong with the report?

There were no Russian soldiers there?

There was no capture of Ukrainian military APCs?

Nothing is happening in Ukraine at all?

Luke Harding is not in Ukraine?

On the other hand, I looked at the Russia Today website when the "anti-terror operations" started. There was some running tally about how many people had been killed. 4 dead, 5 dead, 11 dead across the banner at the top.

Were these reports true?

 

[angrysoba]

So I suppose Russian involvement is becoming clearer and clearer. This is no longer a domestic insurgency. This is an invasion.

Or it is both, which seems the most likely.

No, let's not allow an major power with imperial ambitions gut its neighbors.

Yeah, but it is difficult to see what can be done. Any proposals?

 

[angrysoba]

As for Crimea the referendum I'd like to add.

International observers found Crimea elections fair and free.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...free-and-fair/



http://www.eode.org/eode-press-offic...nal-observers/
Voting process was held in free manner, the voters were not forced to participate in or ignore the referendum, or to vote for concrete option. Freedom of speech and thought were guaranteed. Personal will of voters was not controlled by the Commission. Referendum administration kept the secret of voting and took all necessary measures for respecting it by the all participants of the referendum.

This is a joke of a post.

The referendum had no credibility and citing Press TV as a guarantor of its fairness is equivalent to asking the local Klan if Jim Crow laws were fair.

 

[angrysoba]

What Stalin believed or didn't believe about himself has nothing to do with my comment.


Since I consider having progressive values a prerequisite for being a "true left winger", there's no goalpost moving. There might be a disagreement between you and I about what constitutes a true left winger, of course.




I believe there was a significant Trotskyite presence in Europe during Stalin's reign, not to mention other leftist opposition. Regardless of impeccable leftist credentials, I'd say anyone supporting Stalinism after the post war euphoria, as more credible information became available, would be disqualified for membership in the "true left". Of course, that all depends on how someone defines that subjective phrase.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but I'll just leave on the note that in my opinion Liberalism favours progressivism and Liberalism can be right or left or centrist. Leftism can be liberal or it can be authoritarian. Oh, and a favourite of mine is to point out that only Trotskyists seem to think they should get credit for being anti-Stalinist. For everyone else it seems to be common sense. But that's for another thread.