Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[andreajo]

The Hellmann appeal only exists on internet discussion sites, you won't find it mentioned in the Florence motivations, just a guess.

Well, it exists in real life for Amanda and Raffaele, who would still be in jail at the moment without it. That's not a small thing.

 

[carlofab]

The Hellmann appeal only exists on internet discussion sites, you won't find it mentioned in the Florence motivations, just a guess.

CBS reported that immediately following Knox’s acquittal:

“The vice-president of Italy’s judicial oversight committee, Michele Vietti, immediately warned against politicizing the case. Many paid heed. However, Rocco Girlanda did not. At the time, Girlanda was a member of the Italian Parliament from Perugia. His political party was the PdL (Popolo della Libertà) which was also the party of then Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi. Girlanda and ten other members of Parliament signed a letter asking Italy’s president to investigate the Knox-Sollecito prosecutors. In addition, Raffaelle Sollecito’s lawyer, Guilia Boungiorno, was also in Parliament, head of its Judiciary Committee, and a member of Berlusconi’s political party.”

It is this investigation of the prosecutors that was blocked by the Supreme Court overturning the acquittal.

CBS writes: Hellmann told La Stampa newspaper that he “foresaw” the reversal. Hellman said “the party of the prosecutor is very strong in the judiciary” and that political party had “influenced” the Italian Supreme Court, according to La Stampa.

The above is grounds for Knox to escape extradition per Article 5 of the treaty.

 

[Bill Williams]

Come on Bill I'm just teasing.

You were teasing me for expressing sympathy for a dead girl's family?

 

[Bill Williams]

The Hellmann appeal only exists on internet discussion sites, you won't find it mentioned in the Florence motivations, just a guess.

..... and such is the line which will be used by the "party of the prosecutors" in Italy.

The truth is that the Hellmann motivations report IS part of the record of this wrongful conviction. It is very difficult for a system, legal or otherwise, to do away with a contrary opinion - especially if the larger agenda here is that Knox and Sollecito MUST be convicted, otherwise the flood-gates of investigations are unleashed against the Perugian clowns.

Since Oct 2011, this has become about something other than the evidence of what happened that night against Meredith. The evidence shows that one person did it by breaking in, Meredith surprised the burglar mid-burglary, and she was sexually assaulted and killed by this single attacker - Rudy Guede.

That's what the evidence shows.

The church in Italy also tried to make Galileo's discoveries seem like the Hellmann motivations report - that his discoveries did not exist. The dietrology around both things is remarkably the same.

 

[Desert Fox]

The above is grounds for Knox to escape extradition per Article 5 of the treaty.

Might the most painless solution but Raff gets screwed still

 

[Samson]

Well, it exists in real life for Amanda and Raffaele, who would still be in jail at the moment without it. That's not a small thing.

When Scott Watson was jailed for killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope, 18 year olds, all parents of three families reached out for understanding, in a sense of universal bereavement. Reeva Steenkamp's mother seems forgiving to Oscar Pistorius. The attitude of Meredith's family is totally incomprehensible to me, even when they are completely ignorant of the facts and determined to stay that way. Further I learn that the Sollecito family loathe Amanda, particularly Vanessa. Plague on everyones' houses is my reaction. Maybe you have some insight I am missing Andreajo, as you seem to be a moderate.

 

[Desert Fox]

When Scott Watson was jailed for killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope, 18 year olds, all parents of three families reached out for understanding, in a sense of universal bereavement. Reeva Steenkamp's mother seems forgiving to Oscar Pistorius. The attitude of Meredith's family is totally incomprehensible to me, even when they are completely ignorant of the facts and determined to stay that way. Further I learn that the Sollecito family loathe Amanda, particularly Vanessa. Plague on everyones' houses is my reaction. Maybe you have some insight I am missing Andreajo, as you seem to be a moderate.

It is a craps shoot
It sounds like the parents of some of the murdered children with the West Memphis Three case consider the three not guilty.
Then again, last time I checked, the parents of the murdered woman with the Norfolk Four still blame them.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I feel a cultural gulf between my country and the northern hemisphere. When Scott Watson was jailed for killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope, 18 year olds, all parents of three families reached out for understanding, in a sense of universal bereavement.

Sorry none of the names mentioned above are familiar.

Reeva Steenkamp's mother seems forgiving to Oscar Pistorius.

Not what I have been reading, did you see Reeva’s Mothers face when OP was apologising earlier this week, nah that wasn’t forgiveness, no way.

The attitude of Meredith's family is totally incomprehensible to me, even when they are completely ignorant of the facts and determined to stay that way.

Which facts? Those recorded in a judicial process or one’s being discussed on various discussion sites?

Further I learn that the Sollecito family loathe Amanda, particularly Vanessa.

Really! I mean really? Are you surprised? Raffaele is in Italy more than likely facing a prison term or estrangement from his family (assuming he can escape from the European Union); whilst Amanda is at home with friends and family and more than likely will remain safe in America and you wonder why Raffaele sister might loathe Amanda; amazing. <snip>

 

[andreajo]

I feel a cultural gulf between my country and the northern hemisphere. When Scott Watson was jailed for killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope, 18 year olds, all parents of three families reached out for understanding, in a sense of universal bereavement. Reeva Steenkamp's mother seems forgiving to Oscar Pistorius. The attitude of Meredith's family is totally incomprehensible to me, even when they are completely ignorant of the facts and determined to stay that way. Further I learn that the Sollecito family loathe Amanda, particularly Vanessa. Plague on everyones' houses is my reaction. Maybe you have some insight I am missing Andreajo, as you seem to be a moderate.

People and situations are different. I am not so sure that it is cultural, unless there is some kind of religious element in the forgiveness or the vengefulness. It may just be a combination of personalities and circumstances that produce different results. In the American case of David Camm, I believe that his in-laws still think he killed their daughter and grandchildren and are fighting to keep him from getting life insurance benefits.

http://www.whas11.com/news/EXCLUSIVE-Frank-Janice-Renn-talk-about-David-Camm-verdict-230561041.html

The Kerchers were bamboozled by the prosecution with the help of Mr. Maresca early on. If they honestly believe Amanda had something to do with the murder, it is natural that they are angry that she is currently free. They have a large financial stake in the outcome, which is probably a subconscious motivator to keep believing in Amanda and Raffaele's guilt. I agree pretty much entirely with Steve Moore's take on the Kerchers. They deserve compassion and understanding, but don't get a free pass to do whatever they want to whomever. *

http://www.gmancasefile.com/1/post/2014/01/-investigations-and-the-families-of-victims.html

The Sollecitos have lost a great deal, and Raffaele has been the only Sollecito who has mostly said that it's not Amanda's fault all the way along. I expect papa was frustrated that Raffaele didn't throw Amanda under the bus. Vanessa ended up losing her career, which is one more thing about this case that stinks to high heaven. It's natural that they are resentful, and still very afraid for Raffaele. I think that if he ends up in jail again and she is free, their resentment will be even greater.

http://groundreport.com/stolen-dreams-an-interview-with-vanessa-sollecito-2/

When people are hurt and afraid and angry, they lash out, and they don't always feel calm enough to sit down and make sure that they are lashing out in the right direction. The people who should carry the blame for this are Rudy Guede and the people whose professional responsibility it was to get the investigation and prosecution right and who failed to do so. Not Amanda. Not the Kerchers.

* The Kerchers have not done anything wrong that I know of. I am not saying that they are primarily motivated by money. However, I believe that it is naive to think that the money is a complete non-factor.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

You were teasing me for expressing sympathy for a dead girl's family?

Oh the irony.

..... and such is the line which will be used by the "party of the prosecutors" in Italy.

The truth is that the Hellmann motivations report IS part of the record of this wrongful conviction. It is very difficult for a system, legal or otherwise, to do away with a contrary opinion - especially if the larger agenda here is that Knox and Sollecito MUST be convicted, otherwise the flood-gates of investigations are unleashed against the Perugian clowns.
Since Oct 2011, this has become about something other than the evidence of what happened that night against Meredith. The evidence shows that one person did it by breaking in, Meredith surprised the burglar mid-burglary, and she was sexually assaulted and killed by this single attacker - Rudy Guede.
That's what the evidence shows.
The church in Italy also tried to make Galileo's discoveries seem like the Hellmann motivations report - that his discoveries did not exist. The dietrology around both things is remarkably the same.

CBS reported that immediately following Knox’s acquittal:

“The vice-president of Italy’s judicial oversight committee, Michele Vietti, immediately warned against politicizing the case. Many paid heed. However, Rocco Girlanda did not. At the time, Girlanda was a member of the Italian Parliament from Perugia. His political party was the PdL (Popolo della Libertà) which was also the party of then Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi. Girlanda and ten other members of Parliament signed a letter asking Italy’s president to investigate the Knox-Sollecito prosecutors. In addition, Raffaelle Sollecito’s lawyer, Guilia Boungiorno, was also in Parliament, head of its Judiciary Committee, and a member of Berlusconi’s political party.”

It is this investigation of the prosecutors that was blocked by the Supreme Court overturning the acquittal.

CBS writes: Hellmann told La Stampa newspaper that he “foresaw” the reversal. Hellman said “the party of the prosecutor is very strong in the judiciary” and that political party had “influenced” the Italian Supreme Court, according to La Stampa.

The above is grounds for Knox to escape extradition per Article 5 of the treaty.

Well, it exists in real life for Amanda and Raffaele, who would still be in jail at the moment without it. That's not a small thing.

I have no doubt that the Hellmann annulled appeal served a purpose in as much as Amanda is home safe in Seattle (Raffaele?). However, my point, my only point is that I doubt that the forth coming motivations will mention that annulled appeal, just saying.

 

[andreajo]

I have no doubt that the Hellmann annulled appeal served a purpose in as much as Amanda is home safe in Seattle (Raffaele?). However, my point, my only point is that I doubt that the forth coming motivations will mention that annulled appeal, just saying.

I am sure that Raffaele is much happier out than in. I've never been in jail, so I don't know what it's like. I bet that every day of freedom is dear, especially since he knows what it is like to lose it, and he is still in grave jeopardy of losing it for a long time. His current freedom should not be belittled.

 

[Samson]

People and situations are different. I am not so sure that it is cultural, unless there is some kind of religious element in the forgiveness or the vengefulness. It may just be a combination of personalities and circumstances that produce different results. In the American case of David Camm, I believe that his in-laws still think he killed their daughter and grandchildren and are fighting to keep him from getting life insurance benefits.

http://www.whas11.com/news/EXCLUSIVE-Frank-Janice-Renn-talk-about-David-Camm-verdict-230561041.html

The Kerchers were bamboozled by the prosecution with the help of Mr. Maresca early on. If they honestly believe Amanda had something to do with the murder, it is natural that they are angry that she is currently free. They have a large financial stake in the outcome, which is probably a subconscious motivator to keep believing in Amanda and Raffaele's guilt. I agree pretty much entirely with Steve Moore's take on the Kerchers. They deserve compassion and understanding, but don't get a free pass to do whatever they want to whomever. *

http://www.gmancasefile.com/1/post/2014/01/-investigations-and-the-families-of-victims.html

The Sollecitos have lost a great deal, and Raffaele has been the only Sollecito who has mostly said that it's not Amanda's fault all the way along. I expect papa was frustrated that Raffaele didn't throw Amanda under the bus. Vanessa ended up losing her career, which is one more thing about this case that stinks to high heaven. It's natural that they are resentful, and still very afraid for Raffaele. I think that if he ends up in jail again and she is free, their resentment will be even greater.

http://groundreport.com/stolen-dreams-an-interview-with-vanessa-sollecito-2/

When people are hurt and afraid and angry, they lash out, and they don't always feel calm enough to sit down and make sure that they are lashing out in the right direction. The people who should carry the blame for this are Rudy Guede and the people whose professional responsibility it was to get the investigation and prosecution right and who failed to do so. Not Amanda. Not the Kerchers.

* The Kerchers have not done anything wrong that I know of. I am not saying that they are primarily motivated by money. However, I believe that it is naive to think that the money is a complete non-factor.

Thank you for saying this instead of me. I have no doubt of this, and that they are in a devil's pact with Maresca. Maybe CoulsdonUK could throw light on the observation. I will read the rest of your post in time.

ETA I deleted the cultural gap bit too late, as it does not accord with critical thinking

 

[Samson]

Sorry none of the names mentioned above are familiar.



Not what I have been reading, did you see Reeva’s Mothers face when OP was apologising earlier this week, nah that wasn’t forgiveness, no way.



Which facts? Those recorded in a judicial process or one’s being discussed on various discussion sites?

Really! I mean really? Are you surprised? Raffaele is in Italy more than likely facing a prison term or estrangement from his family (assuming he can escape from the European Union); whilst Amanda is at home with friends and family and more than likely will remain safe in America and you wonder why Raffaele sister might loathe Amanda; amazing. <snip>

I don't give a toss for judicial documents. Guede was accidentally locked in the house by Meredith and the sun is at the center of our solar system. I wish you clever British people who invented tennis and golf could get used to this little stunner of a fact.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I am sure that Raffaele is much happier out than in. I've never been in jail, so I don't know what it's like. I bet that every day of freedom is dear, especially since he knows what it is like to lose it, and he is still in grave jeopardy of losing it for a long time. His current freedom should not be belittled.

I am not belittling Raffaele situation, just that his families along with the Kercher family position is completely understandable given their specific circumstances.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I don't give a toss for judicial documents. Guede was accidentally locked in the house by Meredith and the sun is at the center of our solar system. I wish you clever British people who invented tennis and golf could get used to this little stunner of a fact.

Well you have the luxury of not “giving a toss” your freedom is not in question. However, it is those very documents that “may” form the basis of an extradition request from Italy. Clever? Me? How dare you!!!

 

[andreajo]

I am not belittling Raffaele situation, just that his families along with the Kercher family position is completely understandable given their specific circumstances.

Yes, I can see why the Kerchers and the Sollecitos feel as they do.

 

[acbytesla]

Sorry none of the names mentioned above are familiar.



Not what I have been reading, did you see Reeva’s Mothers face when OP was apologising earlier this week, nah that wasn’t forgiveness, no way.



Which facts? Those recorded in a judicial process or one’s being discussed on various discussion sites?



Really! I mean really? Are you surprised? Raffaele is in Italy more than likely facing a prison term or estrangement from his family (assuming he can escape from the European Union); whilst Amanda is at home with friends and family and more than likely will remain safe in America and you wonder why Raffaele sister might loathe Amanda; amazing. <snip>

Really? You think that Raffaele's family should loathe Amanda when Amanda didn't do anything? . Why should they have animosity toward Amanda when the problem is with the prosecution and the police? It isn't wrong that Amanda may escape a life behind bars any more than I might. What is wrong that Raffaele has to live with that possible horrible future in front of him

 

[Samson]

Well you have the luxury of not “giving a toss” your freedom is not in question. However, it is those very documents that “may” form the basis of an extradition request from Italy. Clever? Me? How dare you!!!

As you point out it is an internet forum, and this one is designated for the curious. Language is interpreted many ways, but if I seem indifferent to the extraditee I have failed miserably. Actually 80% of people have had or will have a 20 year old daughter, so Amanda's plight is deeply felt by many.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Really? You think that Raffaele's family should loathe Amanda when Amanda didn't do anything? . Why should they have animosity toward Amanda when the problem is with the prosecution and the police? It isn't wrong that Amanda may escape a life behind bars any more than I might. What is wrong that Raffaele has to live with that possible horrible future in front of him

My post #3814 refers.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

As you point out it is an internet forum, and this one is designated for the curious. Language is interpreted many ways, but if I seem indifferent to the extraditee I have failed miserably. Actually 80% of people have had or will have a 20 year old daughter, so Amanda's plight is deeply felt by many.

As are Meredith's and Raffaele's.