Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[jimbob]

You keep repeating this "election" stuff. Are you aware what they are going to elect? The president. Who has vastly fewer powers under the constitution the illegitimate parliament decided to reinstall than Yanukovic had under the current constitution. While I haven't heard anything about a parliamentary election or something like a constitutional referendum planned. Meaning, they will get to elect a figurehead and the illegitimate rump parliament and the government with Swoboda and worse goons in positions of power and Yats as significant decider will stay for the foreseeable future if it goes like they want.

Any information to the contrary?

The ousting of the president was messy. ETA: Imperfect but less bad than the alternatives for a temporary situation

The people will still elect a president. After that point, the president will have a mandate. The president could dissolve parliament and call an election.

I hope that the president does, because the resulting parliament and government will have full legitimacy, which it doesn't at the moment.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

USA = Root of all Evil in the universe
Anyone opposing the USA = Good

Some people can't handle complexity well.

Same reason people root for HAMAS and Hizbollah, basically.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Word is that Achmetov has visited Putin in Moscow last week. So if you want to make your CTs a bit more credible, assume that he is investing some considerable amount of money into making the Russian proposal of a constitution with stronger federalism happen, for the sake of his $15 billion, but don't forget that it is also for the sake of the peanuts all the fine people of Eastern Ukraine will receive "trickling down".

I must be psychic. While I wrote that, he showed up at the occupied city hall in Donetsk as "an intermediary". He denied having met with Putin, but advocates what I outlined as his interest:

[...] Akhmetov, 47, advised the separatists to negotiate with the government – not issue outrageous demands or ultimatums.

“If we take 50 bullet points, we will resolve nothing. Let’s be realists and take points A, B, C, D. Look, guys, if you start demanding this, this, and so on, no one will give them to you. Then what? Fight? There is no way out from that. We say that the Donbas must be heard. So, let us speak,” Akhmetov said.

However, the billionaire told the rebels that if the government does storm the building, then he will be “with the people. But I will say again, we have to speak up to make a difference.”

Akhmetov continued: “We should discuss all problems, and I understand that we must make ourselves heard. Secession is not a goal but a means, and the goal is a better life. I understand that your hearts ache – anyone whose soul aches for Donbas is my brother. Donbas will always be a part of me. I live and breathe here.”

He suggested that the separatists select three to five people and together they would negotiate with the central government. [...]

@jimbob: So no information to the contrary, just wild guesses what the president could or couldn't do without even looking up if he could. Not impressive.

 

[jimbob]

@jimbob: So no information to the contrary, just wild guesses what the president could or couldn't do without even looking up if he could. Not impressive.

The president was deposed. The People of Ukraine are electing a new president, under the 2004 constitution which includes the power to dissolve parliament.

 

[McHrozni]

There's a great opinion article on Beyondbrics:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/08/guest-post-dont-rationalise-the-aggressor/#ixzz2yNP7dwmb


Money quote:

Don’t look for logic where there is none. Russia’s actions speak for themselves. It tries to cement its geopolitical positions in the region by antagonising and dismantling Ukraine, its nearest neighbour and partner. It attempts to get stronger economically by raising a new wall between itself and the majority of nations. It sinks in a world of delusion, postulating that it has been besieged by a malevolent and decadent west.

(...)

Such explanations are flawed, artificial and weak. Russia didn’t attack Ukraine because of Nato expansion to the east. On the contrary, Nato expanded in response to the threat of a Russian attack. EU association wasn’t imposed on Ukraine. On the contrary, President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians. And of course war-torn Kosovo and Iraq can in no way be seen as precedents for Ukraine, which didn’t witness any bloodshed until Putin decided to get involved in its domestic affairs.

McHrozni

 

[ServiceSoon]

There's a great opinion article on Beyondbrics:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/08/guest-post-dont-rationalise-the-aggressor/#ixzz2yNP7dwmb


Money quote:

Don’t look for logic where there is none. Russia’s actions speak for themselves. It tries to cement its geopolitical positions in the region by antagonising and dismantling Ukraine, its nearest neighbour and partner. It attempts to get stronger economically by raising a new wall between itself and the majority of nations. It sinks in a world of delusion, postulating that it has been besieged by a malevolent and decadent west.

(...)

Such explanations are flawed, artificial and weak. Russia didn’t attack Ukraine because of Nato expansion to the east. On the contrary, Nato expanded in response to the threat of a Russian attack. EU association wasn’t imposed on Ukraine. On the contrary, President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians. And of course war-torn Kosovo and Iraq can in no way be seen as precedents for Ukraine, which didn’t witness any bloodshed until Putin decided to get involved in its domestic affairs.

McHrozni

Excellent article; thanks for sharing. For clarification:

1. Can anybody present facts on Russia "antagonizing and dismantling Ukraine?" Speculation on who is causing the uprising in Ukraine will not be accepted.
2. How would raising walls between Russia and the majority of other nations cause Russia to become stronger economically? I can see how doing so would add to Russia's GDP, but it is also causing them to be isolated.
3. Can we agree that it's fact that "President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians?" What campaign promises did Pres Viktor make to get elected? Is it fair to say he changed course unexpectedly?

 

[magellan]

Excellent article; thanks for sharing. For clarification:

1. Can anybody present facts on Russia "antagonizing and dismantling Ukraine?" Speculation on who is causing the uprising in Ukraine will not be accepted.
2. How would raising walls between Russia and the majority of other nations cause Russia to become stronger economically? I can see how doing so would add to Russia's GDP, but it is also causing them to be isolated.
3. Can we agree that it's fact that "President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians?" What campaign promises did Pres Viktor make to get elected? Is it fair to say he changed course unexpectedly?

All you need to know is that Putin is the new new Hitler and Ukraine is the new new Sudetenland.

 

[TheRealnz]

Haha Nazis start attacking people that call them out on their hypocrisy

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.584498

WATCH: Ukraine lawmakers brawl in parliament

Free-for-all erupts after communist MP voices support for pro-Russia protesters.

By Reuters | Apr. 8, 2014 | 4:54 PM

Deputies in the Ukrainian parliament brawled in the chamber on Tuesday after a communist leader accused nationalists of playing into the hands of Russia by adopting extreme tactics early in the Ukrainian crisis.
Two deputies from the Svoboda far-right nationalist party took exception to the charges by communist Petro Symonenko and seized him while he was talking from the rostrum.


His party supporters rallied to his defense and a brawl broke out with deputies from other parties joining in and trading punches.


Symonenko stirred nationalist anger when, referring to pro-Russian protesters who seized buildings in eastern Ukraine, he said nationalists had set a precedent earlier this year by seizing public buildings in protest at the rule of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych.


Now, he said, armed groups were attacking people who wanted to defend their rights by peaceful means.


"You are today doing everything to intimidate people. You arrest people, start fighting people who have a different point of view," he said, before being pulled away from the rostrum by the Svoboda deputies.


Symonenko did not appear to have been hurt in the brawl involving other deputies. But one deputy later resumed his seat in the chamber with scratches on his face clearly showing.


The communists backed Yanukovych and his Regions Party through the three months leading up to him fleeing the country on February 21 after more than 100 people were shot dead by police snipers in Kiev.

 

[TheRealnz]

There's a great opinion article on Beyondbrics:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/08/guest-post-dont-rationalise-the-aggressor/#ixzz2yNP7dwmb


Money quote:

Don’t look for logic where there is none. Russia’s actions speak for themselves. It tries to cement its geopolitical positions in the region by antagonising and dismantling Ukraine, its nearest neighbour and partner. It attempts to get stronger economically by raising a new wall between itself and the majority of nations. It sinks in a world of delusion, postulating that it has been besieged by a malevolent and decadent west.

(...)

Such explanations are flawed, artificial and weak. Russia didn’t attack Ukraine because of Nato expansion to the east. On the contrary, Nato expanded in response to the threat of a Russian attack. EU association wasn’t imposed on Ukraine. On the contrary, President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians. And of course war-torn Kosovo and Iraq can in no way be seen as precedents for Ukraine, which didn’t witness any bloodshed until Putin decided to get involved in its domestic affairs.

McHrozni

The real sad part is that there are people who really can not see how Putin is doing nothing different than the US/NATO and pursuing actions in their best interest.
You lose all moral authority when you have done worse than the people you are criticizing for doing the exact same thing that you have done.

The US/NATO is the one with expansionist policy and that is to include former soviet states and russian allies into its sphere of influence. US/NATO do this by illegal regime change and destabilization which either succeeds in changing the government (Ukraine) or succeeds in destroying the country and its society (Syria) or both (Libya). Russia's annexation of Crimea is not expansionist but is only a reaction to US/NATO's aggressive policy in Eastern Europe. One may or may not agree to Putin's annexation but comparing it to Hitler's campaign is very exaggerated. Putin will not expand from one country to another while proclaiming russia's manifest supremacy. Putin only wants to keep his backyard intact in the face of US/NATO's continuing cold war politics. There's no lebensraum here nor racist extermination of whole populations.

 

[Childlike Empress]

LOL Nazis start attacking people that call them out on their hypocrisy

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.584498

WATCH: Ukraine lawmakers brawl in parliament

Yeah, there's video. Our friend with the long ponytail who beat up the TV director can be seen prominently as well. Doesn't appear like there have been consequences for him. Miracle that the Commie got an opportunity to speak in the first place.

 

[Childlike Empress]

The fact that the "return to Russia" happened with no bloodshed is proof enough that the referendum was sound. The whole speedy process was a red line that was drawn against the constant violations of "the West" and as such a great thing. The whining is healthy.

 

[McHrozni]

Excellent article; thanks for sharing. For clarification:

1. Can anybody present facts on Russia "antagonizing and dismantling Ukraine?" Speculation on who is causing the uprising in Ukraine will not be accepted.

Russia illegally seized 30,000 square kilometers and 2 million people of Ukraine, presented a faux referendum with no legality or legitimacy, and annexed it in contravention of international norms, laws and valid memorandum. It then illegally cancelled a treaty regarding natural gas discount, to put economic pressure on Ukraine. Russia also pledged not to use economic coercion with Ukraine back in 1994.
How is that not antagonizing and dismantling Ukraine again?

2. How would raising walls between Russia and the majority of other nations cause Russia to become stronger economically? I can see how doing so would add to Russia's GDP, but it is also causing them to be isolated.

It didn't work with USSR, I see no reason at all it could work for Russia.

3. Can we agree that it's fact that "President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to pull away from EU association caused a revolution among Ukrainians?" What campaign promises did Pres Viktor make to get elected? Is it fair to say he changed course unexpectedly?

Yes, it is.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

The real sad part is that there are people who really can not see how Putin is doing nothing different than the US/NATO and pursuing actions in their best interest.
You lose all moral authority when you have done worse than the people you are criticizing for doing the exact same thing that you have done.

The US/NATO is the one with expansionist policy and that is to include former soviet states and russian allies into its sphere of influence. US/NATO do this by illegal regime change and destabilization which either succeeds in changing the government (Ukraine) or succeeds in destroying the country and its society (Syria) or both (Libya). Russia's annexation of Crimea is not expansionist but is only a reaction to US/NATO's aggressive policy in Eastern Europe. One may or may not agree to Putin's annexation but comparing it to Hitler's campaign is very exaggerated. Putin will not expand from one country to another while proclaiming russia's manifest supremacy. Putin only wants to keep his backyard intact in the face of US/NATO's continuing cold war politics. There's no lebensraum here nor racist extermination of whole populations.

Evidence for NATO being what tore Libya and Syria apart please. Last time I checked NATO didn't get involved in either before the two were already in a shooting war. Also evidence NATO was what changed the government in Ukraine.

If NATO is as powerful as you claim, why didn't it incite a revolt in Moscow? in Teheran? Why dance around a problem when you can deal with it directly?

I call Poe on TheRealnz.

McHrozni

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I call Poe on TheRealnz.

Likewise. Except I called it when he asked why Britain didn't declare war on Germany and the Soviet Union...

 

[Childlike Empress]

German public TV ZDF was caught (German) broadcasting talking points of Swoboda as their own. This happened because of their "very useful" collaboration with the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center (UCMC) located in Floor 3 of Hotel Ukraine. A "leftist" German Parliamentarian did one of his trademark hard-hitting speeches criticizing the putschist regime and the neo-nazis among them, delivering some quotes from Swoboda head Tjagnibok. In very short time, the UCMC invited Tjagnibok to comment - quote ten years old, out of context, only communists criticize Swoboda. Fast enough for the ZDF to mention in their report about Gysi's speech (without mentioning the source) that ... the quote is ten years old, out of context and other members of the speakers party are "radical leftists".

Hahaha.

The UCMC was founded in mid-March, financed and coordinated mostly by Ukrainian subsidaries of "Western" PR firms, like this or that, the head works for Weber Shandwick^WP and is "proud to be called a Banderite". But also putschist government figures themselves like the deputy foreign minister.

They hold daily press briefings and around 900 "international" Journalists are signed-up. You can also get "fixers" there to make contacts. So if MSNBC wants a colourful commenter, they would know how to reach Ruslana. Just for example.

The main talking points the entire operation wants to bring across are:

• Ukraine is victim of a "Russian aggression"
• The putschist regime is legitimate
• claims of a significant danger from neo-nazis in the regime are "Russian Propaganda"
• allegations that the Maidan Snipers were hired by the putschists themselves are "Russian Propaganda"

Funny how we all know this already, isn't it?

 

[Border Reiver]

The main talking points the entire operation wants to bring across are:

• Ukraine is victim of a "Russian aggression"
• The putschist regime is legitimate
• claims of a significant danger from neo-nazis in the regime are "Russian Propaganda"
• allegations that the Maidan Snipers were hired by the putschists themselves are "Russian Propaganda"

Funny how we all know this already, isn't it?

Funny how:

a. The Ukraine is the country whose territory was occupied by Russia, and lost said territory to Russia in a referendum that if it had occurred with the US or other Western power being the occupying force you'd have been decrying it as illegitimate. The Ukraine is also the only country whose treaties have been ignored as so much scrap paper, while having a large Russian miltary force having a "snap exercise" close to their border while the Russian Head of State is making noises about the need to defend ethnic Russians. Objectively, I would say that the Ukraine has been the victim of Russian agression;
b. 380 parliamentarians unanimously voted to remove their President after months of protests by the people they are supposed to represent - I would like your explanation as to why that would not be seen as an expression of the people of the Ukraine;
c. From the news there seems to be a crackdown going on against these lunkheads, and the far right parties comprise less than 10% of the Parliament; and
d. Other than rumours, there isn't any evidence that said shooters were. Over in Conspiracy Theories Caustic Logic has been trying to convince us that his video analysis proves it, but it is so deficient that I think the only person he's been able to convince of his theory is himself....

 

[Childlike Empress]

Funny how:

Thanks for proving my point.

As to the thread in CT - I have no idea why CL finds it useful to waste time in boring word games with people like you, but you shouldn't assume that just because nobody cares to say otherwise, you have the majority behind you. I for one can't be bothered to even read the walls of irrelevancies. You can find my opinion about the sniper issue over at the wiki CL keeps linking, btw. I'm that "CE".

 

[Dcdrac]

CE why are you supporting the actions of a rogue state breaking international law?

 

[Dcdrac]

At last someone is doing something visible at least

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/10/russia-suspended-council-europe-crimea-ukraine

 

[dudalb]

CE why are you supporting the actions of a rogue state breaking international law?

Because Russia action's will help lead to the downfall of the West and the Glorious People's Revolution.
CE has also been a pretty strong defender of Iran and Islamic fundamentalism.....until Syria which all of a sudden she made the discoverty that Al Quida was bad......