[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

[dlorde]

It never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that wearing a miniature version of an everyday Roman torture/miscreant disposal device is somehow symbolic of virtue and devotion. It's bloody sick.

Reminds me of the late great Bill Hicks's routine, comparing wearing a crucifix to remembering JFK by wearing a Carcano rifle pendant...

 

[John Jones]

It's a fascinating field. I'm looking forward to some informative posts on the matter as we dig into the issue.

You came to the right place, insomuch as informative means "not from the OP".

 

[Giordano]

- It appears that no one agrees with me. Does anyone agree that consciousness is an emergent property? (I had thought that you all did.)

As pointed out to you, I think many of us agree that consciousness is an emergent property of the formation of a healthy physical brain. But that is only part of what you said and asked us to agree with you about.

Was your post trying to be sly, or do you truly not understand the difference? Do you need to check up what emergent means in this context?

 

[Giordano]

No, because that would not be entirely accurate or sufficiently specific.

But you can undoubtedly find many sources for "consciousness is an emergent property of the brain of a living organism", or to use Slowvehicle's phrase "consciousness is an emergent property of a neurosystem". As a general rule, we are not here to do your homework or research; our time is equally as valuable as yours.

You can use google or other search engine - one simple way is to highlight the phrase using your mouse/trackpad, then right-clicking on the highlighted word or phrase and selecting 'search google for <highlighted word or phrase>'. A new tab will open with the search results, and you can choose which source to consult.

^^This.

 

[Giordano]

If you don't know the scientific model of the universe, how can you claim to have properly computed a probability based on it?

^^^And that

 

[Giordano]

No, because that would not be entirely accurate or sufficiently specific.

But you can undoubtedly find many sources for "consciousness is an emergent property of the brain of a living organism", or to use Slowvehicle's phrase "consciousness is an emergent property of a neurosystem". As a general rule, we are not here to do your homework or research; our time is equally as valuable as yours.

You can use google or other search engine - one simple way is to highlight the phrase using your mouse/trackpad, then right-clicking on the highlighted word or phrase and selecting 'search google for <highlighted word or phrase>'. A new tab will open with the search results, and you can choose which source to consult.

Jabba,

Once you do this, I look forward to your revised calculation using this new information

 

[Humots]

- It appears that no one agrees with me. Does anyone agree that consciousness is an emergent property? (I had thought that you all did.)

We agree that it is an emergent property of a neurosystem. We do not agree that it is "released", whatever that is supposed to mean.

 

[abaddon]

I never knew that was there. Thanks for putting the E in JREF.

LOL, now you are toast, you won't be able to help using it all the time. Like me.

 

[abaddon]

We agree that it is an emergent property of a neurosystem. We do not agree that it is "released", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Sure. But unless and until Jabba reads up on what is meant by emergence, I am almost certain that Jabba has some other idea in mind for what an emergent property is.

This is not a dig at Jabba. It is entirely possible he has never come across the concept before. I know many who have not, and when conversation switches to such a topic, their interpretations and expectations are so far of center as to be, well flat out wrong.

I find Langton's Ant to be a useful demonstration. The Ant's rules are simple, but would you have predicted the behaviour? Based on the rules I wouldn't.

Yet those rules give rise to an elegant structure.

 

[dlorde]

I find Langton's Ant to be a useful demonstration. The Ant's rules are simple, but would you have predicted the behaviour? Based on the rules I wouldn't.

Yet those rules give rise to an elegant structure.

Likewise the interacting patterns of Conway's Game of Life^WP - could you predict glider guns from squares in a grid that are black or white according to the number of neighboring squares that are black?

 

[abaddon]

Likewise the interacting patterns of Conway's Game of Life^WP - could you predict glider guns from squares in a grid that are black or white according to the number of neighboring squares that are black?

LOL, yep. Langton might me more accessible for some one new to the idea though. And I think our protagonist is new to the concept.

 

[John Jones]

LOL, now you are toast, you won't be able to help using it all the time. Like me.

That's right, by golly. I shall now become the Most Tedious JREF Spelling Pedant Ever!

Even my children will put me on ignore status! Muahahaha!

 

[PixyMisa]

- I'm currently trying to show why I think that there is an infinity of potential "selves."
- Let's see if you agree with any of my premisses -- one premise at a time.

1) It would appear that consciousness is an emergent property that is “released” any time that a particular physical situation occurs…

You have obviously completely misunderstood what an emergent property is.

Traffic jams are an emergent property of traffic. They are something that traffic does. You can have traffic without a traffic jam. But if there's no traffic, there is, by definition, no traffic jam.

Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. It is not something that is "released". It is not in any way independent of the brain. It is something the brain does.

 

[pakeha]

- It appears that no one agrees with me. Does anyone agree that consciousness is an emergent property? (I had thought that you all did.)

You have to complete the phrase, Jabba.
Consciousness is an emergent property OF THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM.
Or OF THE NEUROSYSTEM, if you will.

- I had missed this before. It appears that we do agree upon something. Can you give me a scientific source for "consciousness is an emergent property"?

Again, you have to complete the phrase, Jabba.
Consciousness is an emergent property OF THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM.
Or OF THE NEUROSYSTEM, if you will.

...You can use google or other search engine - one simple way is to highlight the phrase using your mouse/trackpad, then right-clicking on the highlighted word or phrase and selecting 'search google for <highlighted word or phrase>'. A new tab will open with the search results, and you can choose which source to consult.

I never knew that was there. Thanks for putting the E in JREF.

LOL, now you are toast, you won't be able to help using it all the time. Like me.

And me.

 

[Jabba]

You have to complete the phrase, Jabba.
Consciousness is an emergent property OF THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM.
Or OF THE NEUROSYSTEM, if you will...

- Why should we be so sure that consciousness is dependent upon THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM -- or, OF THE NEUROSYSTEM?
- Couldn't it be that nothing else has the physical ability to imply its consciousness to us?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

- Why should we be so sure that consciousness is dependent upon THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM -- or, OF THE NEUROSYSTEM?

Because of the evidence, that thing you avoid any reference to.

- Couldn't it be that nothing else has the physical ability to imply its consciousness to us?

It's possible, got any evidence?

 

[Akhenaten]

- Why should we be so sure that consciousness is dependent upon THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM -- or, OF THE NEUROSYSTEM?

Because even the most rabid of proponents have never been able to produce a skerrick of evidence for such a thing as a disembodied consciousness.

- Couldn't it be that nothing else has the physical ability to imply its consciousness to us?

Be sure to let us now when you can demonstrate the existence of such a thing and we'll discuss it then.

Although, just for laughs and since you're not really interested in the actual topic any more, why don't you suggest a mechanism by which such a thing might be possible.

 

[Jabba]

Click on the little WP for an explanation: Scare_quotes^WP

Could you explain why you put the word "released" in single quote marks, if you didn't intend to signify scare quotes?

Agatha,
- I didn't use scare quotes. Someone quoting me did.

 

[Akhenaten]

Agatha,
- I didn't use scare quotes. Someone quoting me did.

Who wrote the following post, Jabba?

- I'm currently trying to show why I think that there is an infinity of potential "selves."
- Let's see if you agree with any of my premisses -- one premise at a time.

1) It would appear that consciousness is an emergent property that is “released” any time that a particular physical situation occurs…

 

[Loss Leader]

- Why should we be so sure that consciousness is dependent upon THE BRAIN OF A LIVING ORGANISM -- or, OF THE NEUROSYSTEM?

I just want to point out that you are now questioning a premise with which you earlier agreed.

Do you have any evidence of a consciousness that is independent of a healthy brain?

Do you have any explanation for the fact that consciousness can be changed, interfered with or completely cut off by injuring the brain?

- Couldn't it be that nothing else has the physical ability to imply its consciousness to us?

This is gibberish. The brain does not "imply" anything. Assuming you mean that the brain imparts consciousness, that is wrong as well. Consciousness is a property of a working brain. If you've got a working brain, you've got a conscious person.

Just like: Responsive steering is a property of a Volkswagen. If you've got a properly constructed Volkswagen, it will have responsive steering. The "steering" isn't located in the steering wheel or the axles or the wheels. It's a process that is the result of all sorts of parts working together.

You keep wanting consciousness to be a magic ethereal gift that God bestows on people like the Blue Fairy making Pinocchio a real boy. It's not. Or, at least, when computing probabilities based on the current scientific understanding of the universe, it isn't. And that's where you are in your equation. When you move on to the other side of your math, which is about your fantasy, you can make up whatever rules and definitions you want.