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Homosexuality not as "genetic" as I've heard?

mike3

Master Poster
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
2,466
Hi.

I saw this on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_sexual_orientation

Researchers have provided evidence that gay men report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers, and closer relationships with their mothers, than non-gay men. Some researchers think this may indicate that childhood family experiences are important determinants to homosexuality,[9] or that parents behave this way in response to gender-variant traits in a child.[10][11] Michael Ruse suggests that both possibilities might be true in different cases.[12]

Anthropologists had observed that relatively uncompetitive primitive cultures such as those that do not distinguish or reward the best hunters in distinction to the other men in the tribe have virtually no homosexuality.[25]

The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving.

The second quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced society -- and if it's right that some cultures have "virtually no" homosexuality, that would seem to suggest it is extremely environmental, which seems to go way against what I've heard with regards to it being genetic or biological in origin.

Is this right, or what? Does this mean that homosexuality is a symptom of broken homes and societies, and the "anti-gay" crowd is right after all at least inasmuch as that homosexuality may indicate something "wrong"? Or is this yet another instance of "Don't trust Wikipedia for all your information", even though there are sources cited: e.g. for the last claim, http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=jaa.006.0479a ? Although, that last link doesn't go into details of how the analyses were done, so that could hide potential difficulties with the claim.
 
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I recall also that the hormones during pregnancy have turned out to be important in sexual orientation. Apparently lots of information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation

I also remember reading about a hormonal treatment for certain problems during pregnancy and the children rarely turned out to be gay. There was speculation it could be used to "treat" homosexuality during pregnancy. Here it is:

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140
 
The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving.

Given that the very simple way to sum up the research that I've seen is that homosexuality is most accurately described as a combination of nature and nurture, so to speak, there will certainly be some forms of nurture/environmental factors that would make it more likely for homosexual behavior to be expressed. With that said, what you quoted doesn't actually match your interpretation. Your interpretation may be one possibility, but it's not that only one and probably not even the most likely one.

The second quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced society -- and if it's right that some cultures have "virtually no" homosexuality, that would seem to suggest it is extremely environmental, which seems to go way against what I've heard with regards to it being genetic or biological in origin.

Looking at the actual source of the information cited, there's a couple points that should be noted. It's from 1978, for starters, which very likely could mean that it's a bit out of date. Furthermore... "an unbalanced society" is not referred to at all, much as that's a very vague and useless term in this context in the first place. You can take a peek at the cited thing at their link, though. What's referred to has more to do with social and economic stresses, which really do not equate to an "unbalanced society." Some stress is generally a healthy thing, after all, last I heard. Excessive stress is certainly unhealthy, but no mention of what levels of stress are healthy is noted, by the look of it.


Is this right, or what?

Maybe what you quoted is correct. Maybe not. I'd need to take a closer look at that area of research before I'd be willing to make any statements that are remotely firm on the subject, though. Your interpretations seem to be rather questionable, though.

Does this mean that homosexuality is a symptom of broken homes and societies, and the "anti-gay" crowd is right after all at least inasmuch as that homosexuality may indicate something "wrong"?

No. Increased expression of homosexuality, actual, not just reported (reported is subject to quite a few more factors that will skew the numbers), might indeed be correlated with increased levels of social and economic stress, yes, but that doesn't make it a symptom of broken homes and societies. A relative increase in the expression of homosexuality could well simply be the result of various other factors, such as simply the removal of social taboos and pressure related to such, and given the relative vagueness of what you've brought up, the actual increase itself might actually serve to counter societal stresses, which would very much put the "anti-gay" crowd in the wrong.

Or is this yet another instance of "Don't trust Wikipedia for all your information", even though there are sources cited: e.g. for the last claim, http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=jaa.006.0479a ? Although, that last link doesn't go into details of how the analyses were done, so that could hide potential difficulties with the claim.

It looks more like an instance of "Don't trust poorly informed interpretations" before questioning Wikipedia, honestly. There's quite the gap between what you quoted and the interpretations that you were asking about.
 
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Given that the very simple way to sum up the research that I've seen is that homosexuality is most accurately described as a combination of nature and nurture, so to speak, there will certainly be some forms of nurture/environmental factors that would make it more likely for homosexual behavior to be expressed. With that said, what you quoted doesn't actually match your interpretation. Your interpretation may be one possibility, but it's not that only one and probably not even the most likely one.



Looking at the actual source of the information cited, there's a couple points that should be noted. It's from 1978, for starters, which very likely could mean that it's a bit out of date. Furthermore... "an unbalanced society" is not referred to at all, much as that's a very vague and useless term in this context in the first place. You can take a peek at the cited thing at their link, though. What's referred to has more to do with social and economic stresses, which really do not equate to an "unbalanced society." Some stress is generally a healthy thing, after all, last I heard. Excessive stress is certainly unhealthy, but no mention of what levels of stress are healthy is noted, by the look of it.




Maybe what you quoted is correct. Maybe not. I'd need to take a closer look at that area of research before I'd be willing to make any statements that are remotely firm on the subject, though. Your interpretations seem to be rather questionable, though.



No. Increased expression of homosexuality, actual, not just reported (reported is subject to quite a few more factors that will skew the numbers), might indeed be correlated with increased levels of social and economic stress, yes, but that doesn't make it a symptom of broken homes and societies. A relative increase in the expression of homosexuality could well simply be the result of various other factors, such as simply the removal of social taboos and pressure related to such, and given the relative vagueness of what you've brought up, the actual increase itself might actually serve to counter societal stresses, which would very much put the "anti-gay" crowd in the wrong.



It looks more like an instance of "Don't trust poorly informed interpretations" before questioning Wikipedia, honestly. There's quite the gap between what you quoted and the interpretations that you were asking about.

Thanks for the response. With regards to the last bit: how then does one correctly interpret this stuff? What does one need to avoid coming to such interpretations and instead come to the correct, "well-informed" ones? Also, how are the interpretations I gave wrong, exactly? E.g. with regards to the first quoted passage -- it says "Researchers have provided evidence that gay men report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers, and closer relationships with their mothers, than non-gay men." Then I said that "The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving. " The quoted text mentions unequal love, and what I said seems to simply rephrase what is already said, and note that I say "may". I don't get how the second interpretation drastically changes the meaning, except perhaps the use of the word "unbalanced", but in my context it seems clear what it means there: imbalance of love. So how is it wrong? You say there is "quite the gap", so what to me seems like a simple change of wording must alter the meaning dramatically -- how does it do this?

And finally, how good is Wikipedia, really?
 
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Thanks for the response. With regards to the last bit: how then does one correctly interpret this stuff?

For this question, then, you're completely off the mark. You may have presented a correct interpretation. Likely, you didn't. Either way, it's exceedingly difficult to present the case that one definitely is the case when there's simply not enough relevant information presented to lead one from what you cited to your interpretation. You would need to present the information that actually connects the two, rather than throwing in variables that aren't addressed at all.

What does one need to avoid coming to such interpretations and instead come to the correct, "well-informed" ones?

Again, your misunderstanding shows, here, but see above, in short. The simple answer to this is that well-informed interpretations take into account all the relevant information. What you've done is toss out a couple isolated facts and made suggestions that... while it's possible that the suggestions are correct, it would very much be jumping to conclusions to accept them based on the presented, and even more of a leap with even a passing knowledge of the relevant social factors.

Also, how are the interpretations I gave wrong, exactly?

Unsupported premises. That's not saying that they're wrong, it's saying that they're untrustworthy as they stand. Where I directly said "no," it was in response to you asking "Does this mean X?" For it to mean X, a number of other things not currently in evidence or, potentially, are contraindicated by relevant information not presented directly here would need to be true, thus, it does not actually mean X.

E.g. with regards to the first quoted passage -- it says "Researchers have provided evidence that gay men report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers, and closer relationships with their mothers, than non-gay men." Then I said that "The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving."

What factors are in play that have and haven't been accounted for, with regards to the reporting? How great is the difference? How much of the discrepancy is attributable to social views on homosexuality and expected gender behavior being reflected in the relationships with the parents? For all that's actually been presented, that could account for the entirety of the discrepancy. How consistent are the numbers? Are there a number of homosexuals with a pair of fairly "normally" or "more" loving parents and a number with much more greatly strained relationships with one of them? Gay men with highly religiously conservative fathers would likely tend to have much more problematic relationships with their fathers, as an example, as a reaction, not a cause. Regarding expected gender behavior, as well, a comparison to the relationships with parents to straight men who display differing behavior from expected would be needed to be looked into. Those are just a couple points that aren't addressed at all by the first statement. In short, the first statement reports a correlation. Your statement implies a particular causation, which is actually not supported by the statement.

Going beyond that, so far, it seems that you seem to be using homosexuality and male homosexuality interchangeably, which does immediately beg questions about how applicable your statements are to female homosexuality. Given that your sources seem to solely be focused on male homosexuality, the generalization seems to be ill-advised.

The quoted text mentions unequal love, and what I said seems to simply rephrase what is already said, and note that I say "may".

It really doesn't just rephrase it. Again, correlation versus suggested causation.

I don't get how the second interpretation drastically changes the meaning, except perhaps the use of the word "unbalanced", but in my context it seems clear what it means there: imbalance of love.

Imbalance from what, exactly, for starters? Different from a different group, yes, but imbalance implies something a bit different than what you had quoted actually indicates. Again, of far more relevance is identifying why there is a difference from the claimed average of straight male relationships with their parents, which would be far more pertinent to determining the answers to the questions that you're raising, rather than simply suggesting one particular causation out of multiple possibilities.

So how is it wrong? You say there is "quite the gap", so what to me seems like a simple change of wording must alter the meaning dramatically -- how does it do this?

See above.

And finally, how good is Wikipedia, really?

That depends on the topic. It's a fine starting point for investigation, usually, at worst, though. Usually, it's good for at least a general overview of whatever topic is in question, as well.
 
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Haven't done any reading in the area in a while, but I recall that there was a definite genetic component, in that in identical twin studies.....If one twin was homosexual, there was a greater-than-normal chance that the other would be as well.
However, it was not a 100% correlation, indicating some other factors at work as well.

The late John Money (sexology researcher) thought that there was a genetic factor, a hormone-in-utero factor, and an environmental factor...."As yet unknown".

Among other oddments... A higher than normal chance that "late" siblings would be homosexual... That if the family had a lot of children, there was again a higher-than-normal chance the last born would be gay.
Developmental hormones "used up" in the mother? No one seemed to know.
 
e.g. for the last claim, http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=jaa.006.0479a ? Although, that last link doesn't go into details of how the analyses were done, so that could hide potential difficulties with the claim.

I agree that details are definitely necessary. For example, how did they define homosexuality?

"They showed that a dramatic rise in homosexuality when social and economic forces inflamed competitiveness was one of several manifestations of frustrated rage (crime was another) among young men who were having particular difficulty with the pressures the culture was exerting on them."

That sounds suspiciously like it could be prison-style male-on-male dominance rather than more normal homosexuality.
 
...snip...

The second quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced society -- and if it's right that some cultures have "virtually no" homosexuality, that would seem to suggest it is extremely environmental, which seems to go way against what I've heard with regards to it being genetic or biological in origin.

...snip...

No it doesn't. Some biological behaviour will only manifest in certain environments. That does not mean the behaviours are not biological in origin.

As to the first quote - given the apparent way fathers used to be (in the golden age of course) one would expect the prevalence of homosexuality to be decreasing today. Does the evidence support that?
 
Haven't done any reading in the area in a while, but I recall that there was a definite genetic component, in that in identical twin studies.....If one twin was homosexual, there was a greater-than-normal chance that the other would be as well.
However, it was not a 100% correlation, indicating some other factors at work as well.

The late John Money (sexology researcher) thought that there was a genetic factor, a hormone-in-utero factor, and an environmental factor...."As yet unknown".

Among other oddments... A higher than normal chance that "late" siblings would be homosexual... That if the family had a lot of children, there was again a higher-than-normal chance the last born would be gay.
Developmental hormones "used up" in the mother? No one seemed to know.

The problem with twin studies here is that they also shared the same uterus, and the same childhood environment. So no help with the nature/nurture question.
 
So what exactly is included in "normal homosexuality"?

I meant homosexuality that remains under more normal circumstances and doesn't disappear when the person's environment changes to a situation where there's less competition, aggressiveness and "frustrated rage."

It's worth noting that the study of Tanelese culture was done in 1939.
 
Anthropologists had observed that relatively uncompetitive primitive cultures such as those that do not distinguish or reward the best hunters in distinction to the other men in the tribe have virtually no homosexuality.[25]


Has such a society ever existed? That sounds suspicious as hell. First of all, uncompetitiveness is NOT primitive. Competition for getting food and the rewards that brings (full belly, best mating opportunities) is about as primal as it gets.
 
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Our society is loaded with single-parent families.. the father tending to be absent most or all of the time.
What ratio of gay to hetero exists with these?
 
One problem with older studies is that homosexuality used to be much more stigmatized, or even illegal. This means that older studies are likely to have an overrepresentation of people who were willing to defy society's norms, or even outright criminals, and a lot less of the "normal Joe" (or Jane) who just happens to be homosexual.

When only misfits are willing to admit that they're homosexual, you'll see an apparent correlation between being a misfit and being a homosexual.
 
Hi.

I saw this on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_sexual_orientation





The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving.

The second quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced society -- and if it's right that some cultures have "virtually no" homosexuality, that would seem to suggest it is extremely environmental, which seems to go way against what I've heard with regards to it being genetic or biological in origin.

Is this right, or what? Does this mean that homosexuality is a symptom of broken homes and societies, and the "anti-gay" crowd is right after all at least inasmuch as that homosexuality may indicate something "wrong"? Or is this yet another instance of "Don't trust Wikipedia for all your information", even though there are sources cited: e.g. for the last claim, http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=jaa.006.0479a ? Although, that last link doesn't go into details of how the analyses were done, so that could hide potential difficulties with the claim.
The first thing one needs to check on homosexuality research is the year it was done. Then one needs to sort the crap from good research because the field is full of the former.

Think about it, it was the accepted conclusion mothers made their kids autistic and gay not all that long ago. Confirmation bias colors a ton of research done at that time. Absolutely shameful.

Then there's the problem with homosexuals trying to suppress their urges and be 'normal'. Look at all the recent scandals of anti-gay politicians and religious leaders that have been outed.

There is some research that exposure to hormones in the womb might account for some homosexuality. There is indication some is genetic. And it is likely the causes are multiple and maybe even multifactorial.
 
One problem with older studies is that homosexuality used to be much more stigmatized, or even illegal. This means that older studies are likely to have an overrepresentation of people who were willing to defy society's norms, or even outright criminals, and a lot less of the "normal Joe" (or Jane) who just happens to be homosexual.

When only misfits are willing to admit that they're homosexual, you'll see an apparent correlation between being a misfit and being a homosexual.
Indeed; I imagine if you did a survey today comparing rates of homosexuality in the UK and somewhere like Uganda you would find a large disparity that had very little to do with the actual numbers of homosexuals...
 
I am terribly interested in this thread. It is very hard to be completely supportive of gay people's rights, while at the same time be interested in the biological/sociological phenomenon in a cold, detached way.
 
The first quote seems to imply that homosexuality may at least in part be due to an unbalanced family environment, where the parents are not equally loving.

Or maybe that they weren't loved as much because they were gay.

I couldn't be attracted to men even if I wanted.
 

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