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What Does the Second Amendment Really Say?

Here is What I Think:

  • The Second Amendment Does Not Guarantee Private Gun Ownership.

    Votes: 39 38.2%
  • The Second Amendment Does Guarantee Private Gun Ownership.

    Votes: 63 61.8%

  • Total voters
    102
To take this back on topic, it was being argued that the right to carry a gun for self defense was NOT a right conferred by the Second Amendment. It was a natural right recognized by the Second Amendment. That there are legal rights that exist in nature that everyone has.

I'm saying that's baloney. There are no rights "everyone has." There are rights that Western civilization recognizes and says everyone should have them. But that's based on our philosophy. Someone who grows up in a tribal society might have a very different idea of the rights people "naturally have." That doesn't make them wrong or us right.


That's a philosophical argument.

As it pertains to the law and the effect of the 2nd Amendment the argument you're making is meaningless. It might be a neat philosophical point, but in practice it changes nothing.

The government formed under the Constitution and refined through the Amendments assumes some rights, enumerates the protection of others, and uses others from common/case law. The right to keep and bear arms was enumerated, and the right to self defense was common law. Combine them and you have the right to own a gun for self defense, along with other reasons.
 
That's a philosophical argument.

As it pertains to the law and the effect of the 2nd Amendment the argument you're making is meaningless. It might be a neat philosophical point, but in practice it changes nothing.

The government formed under the Constitution and refined through the Amendments assumes some rights, enumerates the protection of others, and uses others from common/case law. The right to keep and bear arms was enumerated, and the right to self defense was common law. Combine them and you have the right to own a gun for self defense, along with other reasons.
Fair enough, but I'm often told those are God-given rights. Or rather Gawd-giv'n rats.
 
I think this is something of a semantic argument, and I'm not sure how WildCat meant the word 'right'. Is everything not illegal a 'right' or is it just a privilege that's not illegal yet? Driving a car is a right, driving on public roads is a privilege.
I guess it is, but on the other hand the semantics of the exact meaning of a "right" and the semantics on whether it is only "recognized" or "established" by society seem really important to certain people.
 
The government formed under the Constitution and refined through the Amendments assumes some rights, enumerates the protection of others, and uses others from common/case law. The right to keep and bear arms was enumerated, and the right to self defense was common law. Combine them and you have the right to own a gun for self defense, along with other reasons.

Yes, I agree that's how it came about. But people have been arguing here (quite vehemently) that the right to carry a gun for self defense predates the Constitution. That it was a natural right that everyone has. IIRC tyr_13 you were one of them. It was argued that citizens in Germany and Canada are born with the right to carry a gun for self defense, but are then stripped of this right by their government.

I don't recall you objecting to that.
 
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The government formed under the Constitution and refined through the Amendments assumes some rights, enumerates the protection of others, and uses others from common/case law. The right to keep and bear arms was enumerated, and the right to self defense was common law. Combine them and you have the right to own a gun for self defense, along with other reasons.

You say that, but then isn't that the whole point of this thread: What does the Second Amendment actually say?

You can't say the right to keep and bear arms is clear and unmodified by the first part of the amendment because that right is an enumerated right in the constitution. It's completely circular.

Besides that it enumerates the right in a very peculiar set of words that is inconsistent with the way in which it enumerates every other right. It enumerates the right in a "grammar" unknown to the writers of the day, or since, despite the fact that the rest of the document is an example of very good grammar, some might even call it precise.

To make laws you have to venture forth from the document at hand, which is fine and dandy and what courts have done over the centuries, but what is written is what it is. Utter crap from our best and brightest. It surely must have been an important right for them to make it so distinguishable from the rest of their work.
 
Now you want to ignore parts of the constitution?
Not at all. Keep the first clause in if you like; my position is that since the substance of the second clause transcends the narrow justification in the first, applying the first has no practical effect on the interpretation of the second. The actual extent of the right emanates from elsewhere in the body of constitutional law that has emerged since the signing.

I like to end the week on a positive note.
Thanks for that. I hope your weekend was at least as enjoyable as mine.

Maybe when you have time we can dig into what it means a bit more. You have the jurisprudence to back you up, but working from first principles how does the difference in wording between this amendment and the rest strike you?
I find intense semantic debates tiresome in the extreme. The difference in wording strikes me as everybody generally agreeing that the right existed and should not be infringed, but that one of the delegates wanted a fig leaf justification to satisfy Betsy Feinstein back home. "State militias" struck everybody as a good enough excuse to end debate and break for lunch. That much, and no more, do I care about the question of wording.

It took me by surprise. I thought the recent cases made more regulation very difficult. Instead I found rather a lot of ground that could be covered if there were the political will to do so.
Indeed.

The scream of "anti-constitutional" or "traitor" would not be at all dampened by the fact that it would all be very constitutional.
I refrain from snipping this, as it serves as a good example of an aspect of the debate that interests me even less than Semantic Kremlinology. Please leave me out of discussions about the extremist rhetoric this question attracts.
 
To take this back on topic, it was being argued that the right to carry a gun for self defense was NOT a right conferred by the Second Amendment. It was a natural right recognized by the Second Amendment. That there are legal rights that exist in nature that everyone has.

I'm saying that's baloney. There are no rights "everyone has." There are rights that Western civilization recognizes and says everyone should have them. But that's based on our philosophy.

Yes. The word 'right' in these debates tends to mean whatever the poster wanted it to mean last time they used the word, hence my 'Humpty Dumpty' snark at WildCat upthread.

What is a natural 'right' that exists even though The Constitution doesn't mention it?

How is this different from a 'right' that The Constitution explicity protects?

What is a previous 'right' that has since been removed by law? Was it really not a right, just some terrible misunderstanding?

Even WildCat conceded that some Constitutional 'rights' had their origins in English common law and philosophical chit-chat. Let me repeat that word ... law ... not at all something that's inherent, but something that's been established through precedent and consensus.

A thought - surely the most natural inherent right (if such a thing could ever exist) is that sane, non-criminal adults have the right to vote. When did US women have that right recognised? Was it not a 'right' before then? Seems not.

Law is all there is, either through definition or lack of prohibition. Nothing is natural.
 
Not at all. Keep the first clause in if you like; my position is that since the substance of the second clause transcends the narrow justification in the first, applying the first has no practical effect on the interpretation of the second. The actual extent of the right emanates from elsewhere in the body of constitutional law that has emerged since the signing.

I think the highlighted is key. The right as enumerated is either vague or slightly narrowed by the first clause, but over time has grown through case law to meet the needs or expectations of society. I would say the commerce clause has done the same, by example. While I think one has been generally good for the country and the other not, I can clearly see that the law as it is now is not the same as the framers laid out.

Thanks for that. I hope your weekend was at least as enjoyable as mine.

You're welcome. Mine was quite good, but I think Frozen and The Wizard of Oz would be off topic, so I won't elaborate more.

I find intense semantic debates tiresome in the extreme. The difference in wording strikes me as everybody generally agreeing that the right existed and should not be infringed, but that one of the delegates wanted a fig leaf justification to satisfy Betsy Feinstein back home. "State militias" struck everybody as a good enough excuse to end debate and break for lunch. That much, and no more, do I care about the question of wording.

Words having meaning, even if they are only included to get the thing done. That is my very point: someone didn't feel it would pass without the first part, so why should we act as if it did?



Your restraint there is noted. With thanks.

I refrain from snipping this, as it serves as a good example of an aspect of the debate that interests me even less than Semantic Kremlinology. Please leave me out of discussions about the extremist rhetoric this question attracts.

Will do. They are exhausting and I was only mentioning it to account for some of the lack of political will.
 
You say that, but then isn't that the whole point of this thread: What does the Second Amendment actually say?

You can't say the right to keep and bear arms is clear and unmodified by the first part of the amendment because that right is an enumerated right in the constitution. It's completely circular.

Besides that it enumerates the right in a very peculiar set of words that is inconsistent with the way in which it enumerates every other right. It enumerates the right in a "grammar" unknown to the writers of the day, or since, despite the fact that the rest of the document is an example of very good grammar, some might even call it precise.

To make laws you have to venture forth from the document at hand, which is fine and dandy and what courts have done over the centuries, but what is written is what it is. Utter crap from our best and brightest. It surely must have been an important right for them to make it so distinguishable from the rest of their work.

I'm on my phone right now so sorry for no links and possible curtness. The first part address the second part but doesn't constrain it for several reasons, some already mentioned. As far as the grammar and word order it was in fact used at the time and in law. Look at what state constitutions ratifying the constitution say and how they are worded. Some are even specific to the 2nd Amendment. I've even seen references to how other amendments had some that were dropped. Why was that one left? I'm not sure but some of the hypothesis I remember from college were slave state fears (which I can't remember any actual evidence for) and the compound rights format. That is that with the background of the crown trying to break up American militia they wanted the militias endorsed somewhere outside the arms part. This was backed by some letters if I remember correctly as well as the way other Amendments like the 1st mention several, but they couldn't get the support to make it a full protected right. That's were speculation about slave states comes in again.

Speaking of inconsistent, it wouldn't be consistent to say the people means anything else and the grammar even if bad doesn't make the first part restrict the second. Being bad grammar is one thing but that doesn't mean it can say whatever.
 
I'm on my phone right now so sorry for no links and possible curtness.

No worries. I can barely post from my iPad, much less a phone.

Please excuse me if I break your paragraph into parts you find discordant. I'm trying to keep your points together, but I may fail.

The first part address the second part but doesn't constrain it for several reasons, some already mentioned. As far as the grammar and word order it was in fact used at the time and in law. Look at what state constitutions ratifying the constitution say and how they are worded. Some are even specific to the 2nd Amendment.

I'd actually be interested in that if you have time when you get back to a computer. I'd rather learn that I was wrong than persist in my ignorance.

I've even seen references to how other amendments had some that were dropped. Why was that one left? I'm not sure but some of the hypothesis I remember from college were slave state fears (which I can't remember any actual evidence for) and the compound rights format. That is that with the background of the crown trying to break up American militia they wanted the militias endorsed somewhere outside the arms part. This was backed by some letters if I remember correctly as well as the way other Amendments like the 1st mention several, but they couldn't get the support to make it a full protected right. That's were speculation about slave states comes in again.

I'm sure this has been presented in this thread already, but if you have time to put it together I promise to read it this time!

Speaking of inconsistent, it wouldn't be consistent to say the people means anything else

Agreed, people still means "white male land owners", but the first part does appear to limit the people to members, or at least potential members, of a well regulated militia. At least, that meaning is no less plausible than totally disregarding the first part on its face.

and the grammar even if bad doesn't make the first part restrict the second.

Except that restriction is the very function of an explanatory clause. It tells you why the next part is being said, so that you don't assume it is being said for some unrelated purpose.

Being bad grammar is one thing but that doesn't mean it can say whatever.

On that we agree.

I would only add that it doesn't mean it can say nothing. Except that the SCOTUS clearly disagrees with me.
 
Even WildCat conceded that some Constitutional 'rights' had their origins in English common law and philosophical chit-chat. Let me repeat that word ... law ... not at all something that's inherent, but something that's been established through precedent and consensus.

That's a good point. Origins in English common law. Written by lawmakers who can, after-the-fact, decide it wasn't such a good idea after all and scrap the whole thing by re-writing the law out of existence. Not quite the same as rights that can never be denied.

For context, this whole line of argument came about when it was pointed out that SCOTUS in Cruikshank, held "This [the right to keep and bear arms] is not a right granted by the Constitution." The gun rights advocates emphasized that in the next sentence of that decision, Cruikshank held, "Neither is it [the right to keep and bear arms] in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." So it was asked, what is the right dependent on? The answer was natural rights or natural law and citations were supplied of various historical figures writing about it.

When it is argued that natural rights differ depending on the society all of a sudden that whole line of thought is dismissed as "meaningless philosophy" by some of the very same people who were arguing that natural law gives people the right to carry guns.

A thought - surely the most natural inherent right (if such a thing could ever exist) is that sane, non-criminal adults have the right to vote. When did US women have that right recognised? Was it not a 'right' before then? Seems not.

The most sacred right there is some people might say but you cannot find it in the U.S. Constitution. It became law in 1920 when the 19th Amendment, often called "Women's Right To Vote," passed. This is from the National Archives:

Passed by Congress June 4, 1919, and ratified on August 18, 1920, the 19th amendment guarantees all American women the right to vote. Achieving this milestone required a lengthy and difficult struggle; victory took decades of agitation and protest. Beginning in the mid-19th century, several generations of woman suffrage supporters lectured, wrote, marched, lobbied, and practiced civil disobedience to achieve what many Americans considered a radical change of the Constitution. Link


Law is all there is, either through definition or lack of prohibition. Nothing is natural.

I agree with that. ^^
 
I think the highlighted is key. The right as enumerated is either vague or slightly narrowed by the first clause, but over time has grown through case law to meet the needs or expectations of society. I would say the commerce clause has done the same, by example. While I think one has been generally good for the country and the other not, I can clearly see that the law as it is now is not the same as the framers laid out.
Yes, but which of those two is the good one and which is the bad? :P

More seriously, you say that the law is vague, but clearly "not the same as the framers laid out". Juxtaposing vagueness with clarity like that seems contradictory. In any case, if it was vague then, it can only be different now by gaining clarity through case law and precedent. Which it has. Along with every other clause, amendment, and right in the original document. This is supposed to be a bad thing?

Or, the law is "slightly narrowed by the first clause", but is now clearly different. Which is true enough, but so what? A slight narrowing which expanded as it gained clarity over time. Again, this is a bad thing?

Either way, I don't see much of a problem.

Words having meaning, even if they are only included to get the thing done. That is my very point: someone didn't feel it would pass without the first part, so why should we act as if it did?
Because they didn't word it strongly enough to mandate a clear ruling to the contrary. So here we are, forced to interpret an (intentionally?) ambiguous clause in the basis of our nation's system of laws, and our ultimate protection from government intrusion (well, our antepenultimate protection, probably). I've given my interpretation. Have you given yours? I'm not sure.

Is your interpretation that the right pertains narrowly to state militia service?

If so, it seems that one plausible reading of the amendment is that the Federal government will not infringe on the right, full stop. The states, then, are free to establish whatever gun control they deem necessary to establish whatever well-regulated militia they deem necessary, free from any federal interference.

California might decide that the state needs no militia, and thus its citizen need not bear arms. No militia, no arms. Texas, meanwhile, might decide that each citizen is a militia unto themselves, and has the right to arm themselves however they see fit, within the bounds of public decency. Vermont, still smarting from the War of 1812, might find some middle ground in requiring every citizen to maintain an assault rifle, but allow them to hunt with it outside of their militia duties.

But that all takes us into gay marriage territory: It's an established principle that rights which cannot be infringed by the Federal government cannot be infringed by the states, either: If it's unconstitutional for the Federal government to ban homosexual unions, it's unconstitutional for California to ban homosexual unions. Same with the right to bear arms. If the feds can't infringe, neither can the states. If we take the two clauses together, then any state that wanted to infringe on the right would have to come up with some convoluted positive claim about their state militia, justifying some relevant infringement of the right to bear arms.

If we're to take the two clauses together, and assume for the sake of argument that the California National Guard meets the requirement of a state militia mandated by the Second Amendment, then I'd say a case could be made that all citizens of the state have the right to bear any arms common to the modern infantryman--notably, assault rifles and hand grenades.

Obviously the actual situation is a lot more bizarre, and a lot more baroque, than that straightforward reading, but what are you going to do? My take is that if you insist on applying the first clause, instead of restricting the right to bear arms, you'd expand the mandate to have state militias, and expand the right to bear arms along with it.
 
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WildCat, I'm on your side in this discussion, but get real, man. I know a guy who used to carry 'em around, fer christ's sake!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition

They may not be in active use now, however. I really don't know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54
The W54 was tested for use in a U.S. Navy SEAL project that was demonstrated as feasible in the mid-to-late 1960s, designed to attack a harbor or other strategic location that could be accessed from the sea. The SEAL version would be delivered into water by parachute along with a two man team, then floated to the target, set in place and armed by hand.
 
Okay, so do you agree that prohibition took away a right? Because this is where I am confused - either it is a non-enumerated right that prohibition violated, or it is not a right; WildCat said that a right had never been taken away by amendments.
It was never a right! Alcohol has been banned in certain places since before the Revolutionary War, the 18th Amendment banned it nationwide.
 
...it seems that one plausible reading of the amendment is that the Federal government will not infringe on the right, full stop. The states, then, are free to establish whatever gun control they deem necessary to establish whatever well-regulated militia they deem necessary, free from any federal interference.

I think that is basically what the Second Amendment says, or might be at any rate. I agree its wording is very vague, I don't believe anyone can truly claim to "know" what it means. But I think reading it as only restricting Congress from infringing on the states in regards to maintaining a militia is a valid reading.

But that all takes us into gay marriage territory: It's an established principle that rights which cannot be infringed by the Federal government cannot be infringed by the states, either: If it's unconstitutional for the Federal government to ban homosexual unions, it's unconstitutional for California to ban homosexual unions.

I'm not sure it's quite that simple. This is from the Law Library of Congress:

Although most of the rights in the Bill of Rights have been selectively incorporated into the rights guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment and thus cannot be impaired by state governments, the Second Amendment has never been so incorporated. Link

The reality is, many localities did enact laws limiting the right to bear arms and no court ever overturned them until very recently.
 
It is my understanding that during the 18th century it was common for men summoned for militia duty to have to provide their own weapons. Therefore, it is plausible to interpret the 2nd Amendment to be a method of preventing the federal government from indirectly eliminating state militias by banning private ownership of guns.

This, of course, contradicts the current SCOTUS view, which allows governments to ban private ownership of weapons that would actually be of use when serving in a militia (automatic rifles, machine guns, grenade launchers).
Maybe you'll be the first person in this thread who cites court precedent, historical writings, etc which demonstrate this conflict. What is your basis for saying it applies only wrt militia service? And why does it say "the people" if it really means "the militia"? Isn't "the militia a subset of "the people"?

newyorkguy tried and failed spectacularly by citing Cruikshank, which turned out to mean the opposite of what he thought it meant because he couldn't or wouldn't read past a semi-colon, perhaps you'll do better.
 
I think that is basically what the Second Amendment says, or might be at any rate. I agree its wording is very vague, I don't believe anyone can truly claim to "know" what it means.

An interesting discussion of this in the NYT, in which some scholars even delve into the Latin equivalent in order to understand the meaning of the 2A.
 
The right as enumerated is either vague or slightly narrowed by the first clause,
This would be a much stronger argument if the second clause had used the phrase "the militia" instead of "the people". But it clearly says "the people", which makes your argument extremely tenuous at best.

eta: also, it would be rather silly to proclaim that the right to keep and bear arms applies to an organized militia since an unarmed militia isn't really a militia at all.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54
The W54 was tested for use in a U.S. Navy SEAL project that was demonstrated as feasible in the mid-to-late 1960s, designed to attack a harbor or other strategic location that could be accessed from the sea. The SEAL version would be delivered into water by parachute along with a two man team, then floated to the target, set in place and armed by hand.
Sigh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4NZmPlAGBQ
Starting at minute 4:30.

ETA: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/W54_(nuclear_weapon)
Since it could be carried, as a backpack, by a single paratrooper, the fielded version, removed from the container, probably was in the 100 pound range.[1]
 
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