Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[ZouPrime]

The situation is evolving rapidly. There has been a few clashes in Crimea near a Ukrainian base today. I wouldn't be surprised if an invasion of East Urkaine happens in the next few days, if not in the next few hours.

 

[dudalb]

Exactly; this is a lousy match up. Russia is riding a bubble of oil revenue that is unsustainable in the long term. All they are achieving right now is persuading their best customers to look elsewhere for their energy. Even if China was willing to buy up all of Russia's production at premium prices that bubble will burst sooner rather than later. And lets not even get into China's demographics...

And that Alexander Durgin ,Putin;s ideological mentor,sees China as an enemy only a little behind the US in his hate list,and advocates Russia doing everything it can to encourage the break up of China,and says the it is Russia's destiny to absorb Mongolai and Manchuria,is something I am sure the Chinese are paying attention to.

 

[Childlike Empress]

A truly historical speech by Putin. The Empire stands naked. I suggest (as always) you go to the primary source first before you listen to pundits and/or shills trying to spin the thing. (Yet incomplete) official English translation here.

 

[jimbob]

Childlike Empress.

I tend to trust the Guardian, the BBC and the New York Times (for example) above Russia Today.

One reason is that these organisations have demonstrated a willingness to question their governments' accounts of events and (highly notably in the case of the the NYT and Guardian) have also released information which their governments wish them not to - On occasion they have risked prosecution if they thought the public interest was sufficient.

How often does Russia Today significantly* differ from the official Russian line?

You might have noticed - if such subtleties are not lost from the lofty vantage point of your political POV that a fair number of posters on this thread probably describe themselves as left of centre - I probably am by Western European (i.e. not American) standards. I just dislike autocrats of any ilk.



*It tends to be advantageous to have insignificant dissent, to help to pretend to be independent.

 

[jimbob]

A truly historical speech by Putin. The Empire stands naked. I suggest (as always) you go to the primary source first before you listen to pundits and/or shills trying to spin the thing. (Yet incomplete) official English translation here.

Now, many years later, I heard residents of Crimea say that back in 1991 they were handed over like a sack of potatoes. This is hard to disagree with. And what about the Russian state? What about Russia? It humbly accepted the situation. This country was going through such hard times then that realistically it was incapable of protecting its interests. However, the people could not reconcile themselves to this outrageous historical injustice. All these years, citizens and many public figures came back to this issue, saying that Crimea is historically Russian land and Sevastopol is a Russian city. Yes, we all knew this in our hearts and minds, but we had to proceed from the existing reality and build our good-neighbourly relations with independent Ukraine on a new basis. Meanwhile, our relations with Ukraine, with the fraternal Ukrainian people have always been and will remain of foremost importance for us. (Applause)

By voting to Remain with Ukraine in a *real* referendum?

 

[Childlike Empress]

jimbob. You are completely out of touch with reality. If you want to know who lies here and who tells the truth about the big things, just imagine what John Kerry said a couple of days ago. Not once, not twice, several times. He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

He really did. Think about it. What will the countless relatives of the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq and all the other invaded/bombed/droned countries think about that?

How can he say something like that? Think about it. Either he doesn't realize it, then he is insane, literally. Or he does realize it, then he is cynical beyond believe, or evil, if that word has any meaning.

Now read/listen to that Putin speech without jumping at details you were told to believe are "lies". Try to understand it as a whole. Good luck.

 

[uke2se]

Reading the comments section at CNN, the idiots are quite taken by the RT propaganda. Many seem convinced that it was perfectly kosher for Russian troops to lay siege to Ukrainian military bases, and that this is just like Kosovo. It's amazing if these people manage to tie their shoes.

 

[uke2se]

I have to agree with CE on one point. The empire does indeed stand naked. I'm not sure she realizes which empire that is, though.

 

[A'isha]

He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

I agree. I opposed the invasion of Iraq for that very reason. That's why I also oppose Putin annexing the Crimea via fraudulent referendum and fait accompli declarations. In other words, I'm consistent in my principle of opposing the invasion of some countries by other countries based on false pretenses, regardless of which country is doing the invading.

The question is, why aren't you?

 

[WildCat]

Right now: Putin is holing a speech littered with lies. It's quite disgusting.

- He claims that the Crimea always has been a part of Russia, which is trivially easy to disprove if you have any grasp on history.

- He says that Crimean Tatars are collectively pro-Russian, which is hilariously out of touch with reailty.

- He claims the Russian presence in Crimea has been in accordance with international laws, which is also untrue.

- Putin asks what made Kosovo so special, which is either a trick question designed to placate the stupid people who supports him, or a sign that he himself isn't capable of understanding nuances.

It's extra hilarious as Russia hasn't acknowledged the independence of Kosovo.

- He keeps up the charade of labeling the new government in the Ukraine neo-Nazis and antisemites, which is one of the longest running lies since the new government took over.

- He lambasts the democratic development of the Ukraine, which would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Putin has had a hand in holding the development back.

He goes on, so updates to follow.

ETA: He criticizes the US foreign policy as being based on "might makes right". The sound you hear is millions of irony-detectors overloading.

Putin finishes by threatening retribution for the sanctions imposed by the West.

How Hilarious Is RT’s Propaganda? Bill Clinton’s a ‘Neo-Con,’ Ukraine Opposition Like Taliban

With special guest star George Galloway!

Holy crap, what kind of fool do they think will fall for that nonsense?

A truly historical speech by Putin. The Empire stands naked. I suggest (as always) you go to the primary source first before you listen to pundits and/or shills trying to spin the thing. (Yet incomplete) official English translation here.

Oh my!

 

[jimbob]

jimbob. You are completely out of touch with reality. If you want to know who lies here and who tells the truth about the big things, just imagine what John Kerry said a couple of days ago. Not once, not twice, several times. He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

He really did. Think about it. What will the countless relatives of the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq and all the other invaded/bombed/droned countries think about that?

How can he say something like that? Think about it. Either he doesn't realize it, then he is insane, literally. Or he does realize it, then he is cynical beyond believe, or evil, if that word has any meaning.

Now read/listen to that Putin speech without jumping at details you were told to believe are "lies". Try to understand it as a whole. Good luck.

What's that got to do with news organisations as opposed to official statements?

 

[Newtons Bit]

jimbob. You are completely out of touch with reality. If you want to know who lies here and who tells the truth about the big things, just imagine what John Kerry said a couple of days ago. Not once, not twice, several times. He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

John Kerry is a moron therefor Putin can do anything he wants?

 

[jimbob]

One thing that concerns me is what Putin thinks he'll do after he stops being in power.

I can't see a graceful way out.

How many general elections before they become complete travesties?

 

[Ziggurat]

jimbob. You are completely out of touch with reality. If you want to know who lies here and who tells the truth about the big things, just imagine what John Kerry said a couple of days ago. Not once, not twice, several times. He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

Kerry is a buffoon. But you have no credibility either. If you want to know who sides with tyrants, just look at living conditions in the actual countries in question. You always side with the tyrants, CE. You always make excuses for them. But living conditions in the states you champion reveal the truth. Russia is a mess. Venezuela is imploding so badly that you aren't even bothering to defend them anymore, but have fled those threads completely. But we haven't forgotten which side you chose. You have learned nothing.

 

[Ziggurat]

One thing that concerns me is what Putin thinks he'll do after he stops being in power.

I can't see a graceful way out.

There isn't. Ergo, he will never leave.

How many general elections before they become complete travesties?

That ship has already sailed.

 

[jimbob]

Right now: Putin is holing a speech littered with lies. It's quite disgusting.

- He claims that the Crimea always has been a part of Russia, which is trivially easy to disprove if you have any grasp on history.

- He says that Crimean Tatars are collectively pro-Russian, which is hilariously out of touch with reailty.

- He claims the Russian presence in Crimea has been in accordance with international laws, which is also untrue.

- Putin asks what made Kosovo so special, which is either a trick question designed to placate the stupid people who supports him, or a sign that he himself isn't capable of understanding nuances.

It's extra hilarious as Russia hasn't acknowledged the independence of Kosovo.

- He keeps up the charade of labeling the new government in the Ukraine neo-Nazis and antisemites, which is one of the longest running lies since the new government took over.

- He lambasts the democratic development of the Ukraine, which would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Putin has had a hand in holding the development back.

He goes on, so updates to follow.

ETA: He criticizes the US foreign policy as being based on "might makes right". The sound you hear is millions of irony-detectors overloading.

Putin finishes by threatening retribution for the sanctions imposed by the West.

jimbob. You are completely out of touch with reality. If you want to know who lies here and who tells the truth about the big things, just imagine what John Kerry said a couple of days ago. Not once, not twice, several times. He said that in the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries on false pretense.

He really did. Think about it. What will the countless relatives of the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq and all the other invaded/bombed/droned countries think about that?

How can he say something like that? Think about it. Either he doesn't realize it, then he is insane, literally. Or he does realize it, then he is cynical beyond believe, or evil, if that word has any meaning.

Now read/listen to that Putin speech without jumping at details you were told to believe are "lies". Try to understand it as a whole. Good luck.

So which part of that is uke2se misrepresenting?

- He claims that the Crimea always has been a part of Russia, which is trivially easy to disprove if you have any grasp on history.

In people’s hearts and minds, Crimea has always been an inseparable part of Russia. This firm conviction is based on truth and justice and was passed from generation to generation, over time, under any circumstances, despite all the dramatic changes our country went through during the entire 20th century.

- He says that Crimean Tatars are collectively pro-Russian, which is hilariously out of touch with reailty.

Incidentally, the total population of the Crimean Peninsula today is 2.2 million people, of whom almost 1.5 million are Russians, 350,000 are Ukrainians who predominantly consider Russian their native language, and about 290,000-300,000 are Crimean Tatars, who, as the referendum has shown, also lean towards Russia.

- He claims the Russian presence in Crimea has been in accordance with international laws, which is also untrue.

Secondly, and most importantly – what exactly are we violating? True, the President of the Russian Federation received permission from the Upper House of Parliament to use the Armed Forces in Ukraine. However, strictly speaking, nobody has acted on this permission yet. Russia’s Armed Forces never entered Crimea; they were there already in line with an international agreement. True, we did enhance our forces there; however – this is something I would like everyone to hear and know – we did not exceed the personnel limit of our Armed Forces in Crimea, which is set at 25,000, because there was no need to do so.

- Putin asks what made Kosovo so special, which is either a trick question designed to placate the stupid people who supports him, or a sign that he himself isn't capable of understanding nuances.

It's extra hilarious as Russia hasn't acknowledged the independence of Kosovo.

Moreover, the Crimean authorities referred to the well-known Kosovo precedent – a precedent our western colleagues created with their own hands in a very similar situation, when they agreed that the unilateral separation of Kosovo from Serbia, exactly what Crimea is doing now, was legitimate and did not require any permission from the country’s central authorities. Pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter, the UN International Court agreed with this approach and made the following comment in its ruling of July 22, 2010, and I quote: “No general prohibition may be inferred from the practice of the Security Council with regard to declarations of independence,” and “General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence.” Crystal clear, as they say.

I do not like to resort to quotes, but in this case, I cannot help it. Here is a quote from another official document: the Written Statement of the United States America of April 17, 2009, submitted to the same UN International Court in connection with the hearings on Kosovo. Again, I quote: “Declarations of independence may, and often do, violate domestic legislation. However, this does not make them violations of international law.” End of quote. They wrote this, disseminated it all over the world, had everyone agree and now they are outraged. Over what? The actions of Crimean people completely fit in with these instructions, as it were. For some reason, things that Kosovo Albanians (and we have full respect for them) were permitted to do, Russians, Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in Crimea are not allowed. Again, one wonders why.

- He keeps up the charade of labeling the new government in the Ukraine neo-Nazis and antisemites, which is one of the longest running lies since the new government took over.
- He lambasts the democratic development of the Ukraine, which would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Putin has had a hand in holding the development back.

I understand why Ukrainian people wanted change. They have had enough of the authorities in power during the years of Ukraine’s independence. Presidents, prime ministers and parliamentarians changed, but their attitude to the country and its people remained the same. They milked the country, fought among themselves for power, assets and cash flows and did not care much about the ordinary people. They did not wonder why it was that millions of Ukrainian citizens saw no prospects at home and went to other countries to work as day labourers. I would like to stress this: it was not some Silicon Valley they fled to, but to become day labourers. Last year alone almost 3 million people found such jobs in Russia. According to some sources, in 2013 their earnings in Russia totalled over $20 billion, which is about 12% of Ukraine’s GDP.

I would like to reiterate that I understand those who came out on Maidan with peaceful slogans against corruption, inefficient state management and poverty. The right to peaceful protest, democratic procedures and elections exist for the sole purpose of replacing the authorities that do not satisfy the people. However, those who stood behind the latest events in Ukraine had a different agenda: they were preparing yet another government takeover; they wanted to seize power and would stop short of nothing. They resorted to terror, murder and riots. Nationalists, neo-Nazis, Russophobes and anti-Semites executed this coup. They continue to set the tone in Ukraine to this day.

 

[uke2se]

So which part of that is uke2se misrepresenting?

- He claims that the Crimea always has been a part of Russia, which is trivially easy to disprove if you have any grasp on history.



- He says that Crimean Tatars are collectively pro-Russian, which is hilariously out of touch with reailty.


- He claims the Russian presence in Crimea has been in accordance with international laws, which is also untrue.


- Putin asks what made Kosovo so special, which is either a trick question designed to placate the stupid people who supports him, or a sign that he himself isn't capable of understanding nuances.

It's extra hilarious as Russia hasn't acknowledged the independence of Kosovo.


- He keeps up the charade of labeling the new government in the Ukraine neo-Nazis and antisemites, which is one of the longest running lies since the new government took over.
- He lambasts the democratic development of the Ukraine, which would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Putin has had a hand in holding the development back.

I think CE wants you to consider the speech as a whole, which of course is completely different from the things he was saying, because.... US = imperialism.

Something like that.

For the record, I was utilizing simultaneous interpretation by a reporter for a Swedish newspaper. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had mistranslated some things. Reading the English translation, it seems he didn't, and my comments stand unchallenged by any dictator supporters.

 

[dudalb]

Putin's "I have no designs on the Ukraine" must be the 21st Century Version of "I have made my last territorial demand in Europe".

 

[Childlike Empress]

So which part of that is uke2se misrepresenting?

That's the opposite of what I told you to do. Maybe someone else feels tempted to go through this, I certainly don't. Think for yourself.

I'll do ad 1) for you as it is as easily shown for what it is as that guy claims it is to "disprove" Putins claim.

He claims that the Crimea always has been a part of Russia, which is trivially easy to disprove if you have any grasp on history.

Quote: In people’s hearts and minds, ...

 

[jimbob]

OK, I'll try again

PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA VLADIMIR PUTIN: Federation Council members, State Duma deputies, good afternoon. Representatives of the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol are here among us, citizens of Russia, residents of Crimea and Sevastopol!

Dear friends, we have gathered here today in connection with an issue that is of vital, historic significance to all of us. A referendum was held in Crimea on March 16

<snip>

This is the location of ancient Khersones, where Prince Vladimir was baptised. His spiritual feat of adopting Orthodoxy predetermined the overall basis of the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Crimea is Balaklava and Kerch, Malakhov Kurgan and Sapun Ridge. Each one of these places is dear to our hearts, symbolising Russian military glory and outstanding valour.

Crimea is a unique blend of different peoples’ cultures and traditions.

<snip>

Incidentally, the total population of the Crimean Peninsula today is 2.2 million people, of whom almost 1.5 million are Russians, 350,000 are Ukrainians who predominantly consider Russian their native language, and about 290,000-300,000 are Crimean Tatars

<snip>

True, there was a time when Crimean Tatars were treated unfairly, just as a number of other peoples in the USSR. There is only one thing I can say here: millions of people of various ethnicities suffered during those repressions, and primarily Russians.

Crimean Tatars returned to their homeland. I

<snip>

After the revolution, the Bolsheviks, for a number of reasons – may God judge them – added large sections of the historical South of Russia to the Republic of Ukraine.

Or is that not what you want either?