Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[anglolawyer]

Respectfully, I think Tongo got nothing. This is the problem. His own evidence is that the fee for the hit was to be R15000. Then at some point he wove into his story that he and Mbolombo would get R5000 each. So that's R25,000. OK, so follow the money. Where and when did Shrien hand over the loot?

I suspect the whole story has been stitched together as a result of desperate lying coupled with police pressure producing a scenario which ought to have had the cops scratching their heads and asking whether people were really this stupid. I also think the cops themselves may have driven their co-operative witnesses towards their own theory of the conspiracy.

We must not only believe that Shrien jumped off the plane and leapt straight into a criminal conspiracy with a random taxi driver but also that they all went along with a deal that made no sense for at least two of the participants.

 

[Octavo]

Tongo was employed as a full-time driver by Platinum Escape Tours company at the time of the hijacking. Company boss Christo Jansen van Vuuyren says he paid Tongo R5,000 (£445 at the time) a month, but adds that he would have earned extra in tips, perhaps as much as R2,000 (£178). Contrary to company policy, Tongo also moonlighted as a taxi driver in his own VW Sharan.

This does, of course, run contrary to Octavo's disbelief that Tongo a) owned his own vehicle, and b) earned what he did.

Without getting into a slapfight over this, I will point out that my assertion that R5k was a more reasonable salary turns out to be spot on as that is in fact what he was paid per month. I was unaware that he was also moonlighting as a taxi driver in his spare time.

 

[Information Analyst]

To me, that whole side of the story about a helicopter flight booking makes even less sense. One of the main rules of travelling in a country that has high crime and poverty is to book trips through reputable travel agencies, of which there are plenty in South Africa, and not to flash your cash to strangers. Booking a helicopter flight by passing over lots of cash to a taxi driver I just met couple of days ago makes no sense to me whatsoever.

"Naive tourist does naive thing" is hardly shocking news.

Also, if my beloved partner was murdered couple of days before, and the taxi driver was present at the scene of crime even after I was kicked out of the car, no I wouldn't dream of meeting him in the hotel and giving him lots of money for a down payment for a trip that would never take place. In the unlikely case that I would even think about paying him, I'd do with the police present or via solicitors, but probably not at all.

Except that Dewani contact Tongo via a police officer, after the same police had said he (Tongo) was clean.

So, no I have no evidence, clearly - I only read what I read in the press - but I still consider that CCTV footage very damning.

Which CCTV footage? That of the go-between's colleagues discussing the helicopter trip?

 

[Information Analyst]

Without getting into a slapfight over this, I will point out that my assertion that R5k was a more reasonable salary turns out to be spot on as that is in fact what he was paid per month. I was unaware that he was also moonlighting as a taxi driver in his spare time.

You also thought he didn't own his own vehicle.

Do you still think that someone can be bought into murder for a month's salary/less than their actual monthly earnings?

 

[Tanja]

"Naive tourist does naive thing" is hardly shocking news.


Except that Dewani contact Tongo via a police officer, after the same police had said he (Tongo) was clean.


Which CCTV footage? That of the go-between's colleagues discussing the helicopter trip?

If he contacted Tongo via a police officer, that does make the handover of money a bit more plausible. I was referring to the CCTV footage of Dewani handing over money to Tongo, or rather Dewani walking into (a hotel?) with a bag of money, and Tongo walking out carrying it.

Just to add, while I find the idea there was a legitimate reason to hand over money to the taxi driver after the murder implausible, I also find it implausible that a random taxi driver, when approached by a tourist who wants to murder his wife, immediately agrees to arrange it.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

I have been constantly irritated by the SA approach to Dewani's extradition.

His illnesses are self reported and no malingering tests have ever been done. SA accepted the diagnosis way too easily. The first expert they instructed had started up a business with the expert instructed by Dewani which he failed to disclose,

Dewani was fine until he was a suspect. He gave interviews, wrestled with his guilt (which by 3 days after the murder he had reconciled by declaring he had thought about it and there was nothing else he could do) and held a pizza party.

Once he was a suspect and extradition proceedings started he developed PTSD. The elephant in the room never seemingly addressed by the medical experts is that if he killed his wife his symptoms are a con.

He has for the last 2 years been ensconced in a hospital near his family home. He goes home every day for several hours to swim, eat, watch TV and browse the internet.

The hospital allowed him to install a campervan in the grounds where he goes to avoid treatment and where he has internet access. No one has ever checked to see what he has looked at.

I guess everyone has to accept the diagnosis but it rankles with me. At the same time his PR agency instructed within days of his return to England issues statements saying he wants to return to clear his name, his QC is issuing every appeal under the sun to avoid it.

His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.

 

[anglolawyer]

I have been constantly irritated by the SA approach to Dewani's extradition.

His illnesses are self reported and no malingering tests have ever been done. SA accepted the diagnosis way too easily. The first expert they instructed had started up a business with the expert instructed by Dewani which he failed to disclose,

Dewani was fine until he was a suspect. He gave interviews, wrestled with his guilt (which by 3 days after the murder he had reconciled by declaring he had thought about it and there was nothing else he could do) and held a pizza party.

Once he was a suspect and extradition proceedings started he developed PTSD. The elephant in the room never seemingly addressed by the medical experts is that if he killed his wife his symptoms are a con.

He has for the last 2 years been ensconced in a hospital near his family home. He goes home every day for several hours to swim, eat, watch TV and browse the internet.

The hospital allowed him to install a campervan in the grounds where he goes to avoid treatment and where he has internet access. No one has ever checked to see what he has looked at.

I guess everyone has to accept the diagnosis but it rankles with me. At the same time his PR agency instructed within days of his return to England issues statements saying he wants to return to clear his name, his QC is issuing every appeal under the sun to avoid it.

His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.

Wow. And if he's innocent?

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

If I thought he was innocent, I would hardly be so irritated by the process thus far would I? That stands to reason and is hardly deserving of the "wow" which strongly infers that my post contains unreasonably extreme views.

Btw, the panorama documentaries are, imo, as biased and factually flawed as the recent BBC3 Amanda Knox documentary.

 

[anglolawyer]

If I thought he was innocent, I would hardly be so irritated by the process thus far would I? That stands to reason and is hardly deserving of the "wow" which strongly infers that my post contains unreasonably extreme views.

Btw, the panorama documentaries are, imo, as biased and factually flawed as the recent BBC3 Amanda Knox documentary.

Alright, keep your hair on. Why don't you think he is innocent? What did the BBC thing get wrong or distort in your opinion?

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Oh strewth, loads of things, I'd have to go through the entire programme again. The whole thing was presented in a way where Jeremy Vine asked loaded questions which suggested incompetence by SA or that all of the other suspects except the one who pleaded not guilty were lying.

One thing I can remember now is the rings and I've just checked. Jeremy Vine said that her wedding rings had been discovered, one beneath her body and the 25k engagement ring hidden in the rear seat. He then asked the question If this was murder made to look like robbery, why not take the rings? If it was simply an execution, wouldn’t the hitmen have stayed to check Anni was dead?

The questions are irksome anyway, because it supposes that because the rings weren't taken, it wasn't a murder made to look like a robbery, and because they didn't stick around for an indeterminate time after to check she was dead it wasn't a hit.

But that aside, the programme totally failed to address what Dewani has said about the rings and considering we have few direct quotes from him this was lamentable and poor reporting.

In his signed statement to the police made the day after he said

The one male pointed the gun at me and said that I must make her shut up or he will shoot one of us. Anni gave me her wedding rings valued at £25,000. I gave the rings to the male.

He even said the value!

Then in an interview with the Sun a few days later he said

Anni whispered to me in Gujarati so they couldn’t understand that she had hidden her wedding and engagement ring. All I could think about was saving our lives

Can't do links yet as a newbie.

So, one example of why I disliked that programme was that loaded questions were asked to suggest that the prosecution's case was not believable (in this case about the rings), whereas the very clear and unexplained discrepancies from Dewani on the same issue were ignored.

 

[lane99]

B-BS-C

http://panoramabusted.wordpress.com/

The most recent BBC show was shockingly biased. And went so far as to sweep under the covers information the same "journalist" has presented in previous shows on the Dewani case.

The above website goes over the shortcomings of the program in excruciating detail.
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[anglolawyer]

Oh strewth, loads of things, I'd have to go through the entire programme again. The whole thing was presented in a way where Jeremy Vine asked loaded questions which suggested incompetence by SA or that all of the other suspects except the one who pleaded not guilty were lying.

One thing I can remember now is the rings and I've just checked. Jeremy Vine said that her wedding rings had been discovered, one beneath her body and the 25k engagement ring hidden in the rear seat. He then asked the question If this was murder made to look like robbery, why not take the rings? If it was simply an execution, wouldn’t the hitmen have stayed to check Anni was dead?

The questions are irksome anyway, because it supposes that because the rings weren't taken, it wasn't a murder made to look like a robbery, and because they didn't stick around for an indeterminate time after to check she was dead it wasn't a hit.

But that aside, the programme totally failed to address what Dewani has said about the rings and considering we have few direct quotes from him this was lamentable and poor reporting.

In his signed statement to the police made the day after he said



He even said the value!

Then in an interview with the Sun a few days later he said



Can't do links yet as a newbie.

So, one example of why I disliked that programme was that loaded questions were asked to suggest that the prosecution's case was not believable (in this case about the rings), whereas the very clear and unexplained discrepancies from Dewani on the same issue were ignored.

Do you know how his statement was taken down by the police? Is it a tape someone has transcribed or is it Q and A? I don't know whether you have ever taken a statement. He might have been asked the value of the rings, answered £25K and before being asked what he did with them, saying he handed them over. The police then wrote down a compound answer like the one you reference. To me this seems more likely than that he just came out with the value as you imagine, but even if did I don't see the big deal.

One ring was found stuffed down the back of a seat. The really expensive one. Can you go further and try to make sense of the discrepancy in accounts. What does it signify? Is he just unable to tell the same story twice or was he trying to conceal something and, if so, what?

 

[lane99]

...His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.

His lawyers also recently begun trying to sell the line that his so-called illness is chronic and untreatable and that therefore he should never be put on the trial for his wife's murder.
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[Suffolk Skeptic]

Yup that's the one that is written by someone from the Facebook Anni Hindocha page. Thanks. It's alright although I think some of it over eggs the accusations of conspiracy and bias. If I was allowed to link I would have gone to the rings section at number 5.

Oh bugger I meant to quote Lane99 post a few up, assume I have

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Do you know how his statement was taken down by the police? Is it a tape someone has transcribed or is it Q and A? I don't know whether you have ever taken a statement. He might have been asked the value of the rings, answered £25K and before being asked what he did with them, saying he handed them over. The police then wrote down a compound answer like the one you reference. To me this seems more likely than that he just came out with the value as you imagine, but even if did I don't see the big deal.

One ring was found stuffed down the back of a seat. The really expensive one. Can you go further and try to make sense of the discrepancy in accounts. What does it signify? Is he just unable to tell the same story twice or was he trying to conceal something and, if so, what?

It is a handwritten statement.

I think the discrepancy in the accounts means that either Dewani was careless with his storytelling and forgot which version he had given, or that his wife told him she had hidden them but then when they were threatened he got her to retrieve them and gave them to the gunmen, who then after they had released Dewani but decided not to take Anni to the police station as they had said and decided to kill her instead, stuffed one of the rings under her body and the other behind the seat.

I favour the first possibility.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

His lawyers also recently begun trying to sell the line that his so-called illness is chronic and untreatable and that therefore he should never be put on the trial for his wife's murder.
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It may well be untreatable seeing as he never appears to have received any treatment.

 

[lane99]

...So even then you think someone with a steady job would be willing to risk it and be involved in murder for a month's salary? Are South Africans so easily corruptible?

The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa. What's the going rate where you live?
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[Octavo]

You also thought he didn't own his own vehicle.

Do you still think that someone can be bought into murder for a month's salary/less than their actual monthly earnings?

A perfectly valid assumption given the reality here. Yes, I honestly do. It's not as if it's hard to find someone willing to do the job. An afternoon spent making discreet inquiries in some of the more dangerous parts of town or (in this case) a few discussions with taxi operators (who often also deal drugs to supplement their income) should fairly easily turn up someone willing to do the deed.

<snippity snip>

Thank you. I've not followed the case closely enough, nor do I remember enough detail to argue effectively, but I definitely remember at the time from the things in the media he sounded guilty as sin and the PTSD was an obvious con to evade extradition.

Your point about him being more than happy to chat to police, make statements and appear before media is germane. The minute we wanted him back, he hired Max Clifford and all of a sudden came down with a case of the vapours.

The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa. What's the going rate where you live?
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I think it very likely that Tongo doesn't normally run in those circles, but if/when Dewani approached him, he probably realised he could make a few bucks on the side and just hand the job over to some locals from the township.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

2 witnesses say he was gay

There have been 2 witnesses come forward about Dewani being gay. Both say he liked S&M. The prostitute says Dewani told him he needed a way out of his marriage. It is said that his family would not accept him being gay and as a widower he would not be pressed to find a wife.

Despite his age he had only had one reported girlfriend before, who he got engaged to quickly but with whom he did not have sex.

Dewani impotent

The idea that a man in this day and age would kill his wife to conceal his sexuality is astonishing I agree. But if you were going to do it, what better place than South Africa? The honeymoon destination he kept as a last minute surprise for Anni.

 

[Samson]

2 witnesses say he was gay

There have been 2 witnesses come forward about Dewani being gay. Both say he liked S&M. The prostitute says Dewani told him he needed a way out of his marriage. It is said that his family would not accept him being gay and as a widower he would not be pressed to find a wife.

Despite his age he had only had one reported girlfriend before, who he got engaged to quickly but with whom he did not have sex.

Dewani impotent

The idea that a man in this day and age would kill his wife to conceal his sexuality is astonishing I agree. But if you were going to do it, what better place than South Africa? The honeymoon destination he kept as a last minute surprise for Anni.

Don't the alarm bells ring when male prostitutes are taken seriously as witnesses? In the world of male or female prostitutes or drug dealers, truth will be accidental. Murder one is a crazy way to escape a marriage, and I don't believe it, but will do further research with time.