[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

[carlitos]

What else could it be?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Maybe he is assuming lack of disagreement=tacit agreement. Or something. It's hard to tell what, if any, point he has any more.

Whatever it is, it isn't Science or Mathematics or Medicine or Technology.

 

[abaddon]

jt512 & xtifr,
- I guess you guys agree with the rest that there is no aspect of the self that remains the same through the lifetime?
- Once again, I'm trying to refer to the part of us that we, who fear oblivion, want to continue after death.

There is one unavoidable consequence of life. It ends. The only choice you get is how you comported yourself in the brief time you were here.

Measuring yourself according to some far off imaginary place you will never see is a fools errand at best.

You are here now. Make the best you can of this brief time. You will not have another chance.

 

[Garrette]

To put it more clearly, Jabba, the entirety of your argument follows, and believe it or not, I do not mean this snarkily but rather as a last ditch effort to help you see the root of your difficulties:

If you will agree that we all have an immortal soul, then I will prove that there is an immortal soul in each of us.

 

[elbe]

jt512 & xtifr,
- I guess you guys agree with the rest that there is no aspect of the self that remains the same through the lifetime?
- Once again, I'm trying to refer to the part of us that we, who fear oblivion, want to continue after death.

What makes you think everyone else has the same fear of death you do?

This thread has a marketing feel to it; if people aren't buying the product just try to repackage it until they do. If people aren't buying your product, Jabba, perhaps the problem is with the product and not just how you're trying to sell it.

 

[pakeha]

...

Wait, Jabba.
Are you talking about a soul?

Yes, he is, as godless dave has said.

I want Jabba to say so openly and clearly. That way this thread can be put in the R&P forum where I think it rightfully belongs.

 

[dafydd]

- Once again, I'm trying to refer to the part of us that we, who fear oblivion, want to continue after death.

A fantasy, in other words. Stop using "we". I am not afraid of oblivion. I do not need the fantasy of an immortal soul to get me through life. Can you remember what it was like before you were born? It will feel just the same when you're dead. Why don't you start a thread about the soul in the religion forum?

 

[abaddon]

A fantasy, in other words. Stop using "we". I am not afraid of oblivion. I do not need the fantasy of an immortal soul to get me through life. Can you remember what it was like before you were born? It will feel just the same when you're dead. Why don't you start a thread about the soul in the religion forum?

<speculation>Jabba is not even comfortable with his own version of reincarnation, after all, his own self will be obliterated in the very act of reincarnation. So in any event, the current Jabba will expire, permanently. It seems that he is clinging to the post existence of some undefined nugget of self/soul. How this reincarnated self might somehow relate to any current or previous selves is, as usual, undefined.</speculation>

 

[Agatha]

jt512 & xtifr,
- I guess you guys agree with the rest that there is no aspect of the self that remains the same through the lifetime?

I cannot think of any aspect of the self which remains the same throughout a person's lifetime. What is this 'core aspect' to which you refer?
It's not the structure of the brain
It's not the personality
It's not the sense of identity
It's not the memories or experience

Does this 'core aspect' to which you refer remain the same after brain damage?

- Once again, I'm trying to refer to the part of us that we, who fear oblivion, want to continue after death.

Who is this 'we', kemo sabe? I don't fear oblivion since I will not know anything about it. I had no awareness before my brain developed in the womb; I will have no awareness once I die (and my brain stops functioning).

I hope death will be a long time away, particularly since my youngest son's partner in in labour as we speak and I hope I will live long enough to see my grandson grow up, but fear oblivion? No. It's what is in store for all of us, like it or not, so the best way of coping with it is acceptance.

 

[Tomboy]

- Once again, I'm trying to refer to the part of us that we, who fear oblivion, want to continue after death.

I'm still stuck on why I'd want any part of me to continue after my death if that continuing self or essence or aspect or soul-but-not-soul won't have any of the things that makes the current me me. I'm made up of my specific biology, my genetics, my personality, my memories and experiences. If none of that is going to carry through to the next life, what's the point?

I wouldn't go so far as to say I fear oblivion, but this is something I've been thinking about recently; the fact that I'd like to think that some aspect of myself will continue after my death. In my mind, the best way for that to happen is by having children. Through biological children, my genetics would live on. Through adopted children, the memory of me would live on. I'm 38. I don't have kids, and for a variety of reasons, it's unlikely I will. That's okay, though, because the memory of me will live on through my friends and my extended family and my nephews. That memory of me will at least be a memory of who I actually am, or at least how the people around me perceived me. That's a comforting thought to me; that I'll be remembered for a few more generations after I'm gone. Maybe at some point in the far future, an archaeologist will excavate my remains and someone will again know of my existance. Unlikely, but that's also a comforting thought to me.

Your version of immortality, Jabba, in which our immortal self doesn't retain any of the properties of the current self, doesn't offer that any degree of comfort or reassurance to me. (Actually, a bit of the opposite. It's kind of a scary prospect to me.) If it gives you comfort, that's fantastic, but that's all it is; a belief that gives you comfort. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's also not something you're going to be able to prove scientifically or mathematically.

 

[Jabba]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

 

[Garrette]

I want Jabba to say so openly and clearly. That way this thread can be put in the R&P forum where I think it rightfully belongs.

Sorry. I should have realized that.

 

[godless dave]

Jabba, do you now accept that the scientific model for human consciousness - A in your equation - does not include souls?

 

[carlitos]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

Most of us humans have the same parts. Believing differently doesn't add parts.

 

[dafydd]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

Why do you fear death? Are you confusing death with the process of dying? I'm not afraid of being dead, but I would rather that the event not be protracted and painful. I am afraid of that possibility but how can you be afraid of being dead? You won't know anything about it. Start enjoying life instead, you only get one shot at it.

 

[godless dave]

I'm still stuck on why I'd want any part of me to continue after my death if that continuing self or essence or aspect or soul-but-not-soul won't have any of the things that makes the current me me. I'm made up of my specific biology, my genetics, my personality, my memories and experiences. If none of that is going to carry through to the next life, what's the point?

Indeed. And we already know that there are parts of us that will continue after death, parts that won't feel like "us". The atoms that make up our bodies will re-enter the earth's ecosystem and be used again and again. Ultimately they will become part of whatever cloud of gas is left after the sun completes its cycle, and may become part of new stars in the far future.

If you want an afterlife for parts of our body that don't remember being parts of our body, there it is.

 

[jt512]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

Death doesn't care that you fear it. Wishing it away doesn't help.

 

[carlitos]

Indeed. And we already know that there are parts of us that will continue after death, parts that won't feel like "us". The atoms that make up our bodies will re-enter the earth's ecosystem and be used again and again. Ultimately they will become part of whatever cloud of gas is left after the sun completes its cycle, and may become part of new stars in the far future.

If you want an afterlife for parts of our body that don't remember being parts of our body, there it is.

We are stardust, we are golden.

 

[elbe]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

Why do you think your fear must mean that there must be sometthing else? I am, inexplicably, a mottophobe but I don't go around claiming moths dont exist.

 

[abaddon]

- I was just referring to we who do fear death. I was not referring to you guys. I know that you guys do not fit into that category. There are plenty of us humans out her that do.

A significant fraction of humanity fear spiders. So what? Do you think that your fear gives you the right to make any rubbish up? Do you think your fear has any impact on others?

As usual, you will not respond.