Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Tomtomkent]

So if vaccines can cause Encephalitis and Encephalitis can cause autism can vaccines cause autism?

You just answered your own question with a "no". Vaccines cause Encephalitis. But let's assume for a moment that vaccines caused Encephalitis and ergo autism:
Call the cases of Encephalitis caused by Vaccines V
Call the cases of Encephalitis caused by Measles M.

If the rate of V< the rate of M, would you agree that MMR is less of a risk than non vaccination?

As cases of Measles increase as Vaccination decreases, would you not agree that by advocating against vaccination you are increasing the rate of M and therefore the risk of autism far more than if Vaccines were universal?

Could it not be concluded then, that vaccines offer a net decrease in the number of cases of a condition that may cause autism?

 

[Muc]

I hope this is considered on-topic; yesterday (23FEB) was the 60th anniversary of the beginning of clinical testing of Salk's polio vaccine.
Millions of cases of this horrible disease prevented, perhaps two million saved from permanent paralysis and thousands from death.
Thread.

Not really autism related, but apparently there is a conspiracy theory according to which polio vaccines are designed to make muslim boys infertile. A number of people involved in polio vaccination programs have been killed in Pakistan so far, including 12 people who died in a bombing this Saturday:

Eleven paramilitary troops and one child died after the bombs detonated in the Lashora area of Jamrud Tehsil in Khyber tribal district, 30 kilometres southwest of the city of Peshawar, senior administration official Jahangir Khan told AFP.

The troops were protecting a convoy of health workers who were on their way to administer anti-polio drops to children as part of a three-day campaign against polio that started Friday, he said. ...

Polio teams have been the target of various attacks in the country. Militant groups see vaccination campaigns as a cover for espionage there are also long-running rumours about polio drops causing infertility.

More than 40 people, including health workers and police guarding the teams which administer polio drops to children, have been killed in Pakistan since December 2012.

Pakistan is one of only three countries in the world where polio is still endemic, along with Afghanistan and Nigeria.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/677579/...e-khasadar-officials-injured-in-jamrud-blast/

An Islamic group met Wednesday to quash fatwas (religious edicts) ruling that polio vaccines cause infertility, Al Arabiya News Channel reported

“The whole world rejects such fatwas that polio vaccines cause infertility,” Abbas Chouman, a senior official at Cairo’s al-Azhar University - regarded as the highest seat of learning of Sunni Islam - told Al Arabiya News Channel during the two-day meeting by the Islamic Advisory Group (IAG) in the Saudi city of Jeddah.

The strict fatwas banning vaccines against polio were observed in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria and Somalia.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), polio cases have decreased by over 99 percent since 1988, from an estimated 350,000 cases in more than 125 endemic countries then, to 223 reported cases in 2012.

However, in parts of Afghanistan, Nigeria and Pakistan, the disease remains widespread.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...criticizes-fatwas-against-polio-vaccines.html

 

[Estellea]

How are they different from entered bacteria and viruses?

I don't know.

Why wouldn't you? You are making rather definitive claims about what vaccines do; it's paramount to know what wild-type pathogens do first.

How many, exactly?

I don't know. You could look it up.

That is not an appropriate answer. You made the claim; you provide the proof.

Este

 

[Estellea]

So if vaccines can cause Encephalitis and Encephalitis can cause autism can vaccines cause autism?

No because encephalitis doesn't cause autism. This isn't true because you believe it to be; start providing some actual evidence. Opinion doesn't count.

Este

 

[Chris Haynes]

So if vaccines can cause Encephalitis and Encephalitis can cause autism can vaccines cause autism?

Setting aside that autism is not the same as encephalitis, nor is it caused by encephalitis, please answer the following question:

What causes more encephalitis, a measles infection or the MMR vaccine?

For more information please see this post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9870567&postcount=7156

 

[ehcks]

You just answered your own question with a "no". Vaccines cause Encephalitis. But let's assume for a moment that vaccines caused Encephalitis and ergo autism:
Call the cases of Encephalitis caused by Vaccines V
Call the cases of Encephalitis caused by Measles M.

If the rate of V< the rate of M, would you agree that MMR is less of a risk than non vaccination?

As cases of Measles increase as Vaccination decreases, would you not agree that by advocating against vaccination you are increasing the rate of M and therefore the risk of autism far more than if Vaccines were universal?

Could it not be concluded then, that vaccines offer a net decrease in the number of cases of a condition that may cause autism?

This can then be followed up. Universal vaccination exterminates vaccine-preventable diseases. This then means the vaccines aren't required. Encephalitis cases from both the disease and the vaccine are then zero.

Vaccines prevent their own hypothetical-but-not-really-real autism cases.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

This Study Reveals Children are Being Vaccinated With Toxic Levels of Aluminium Causing Neurological Damage and Autism

If Professor Shaw and Dr. Tomljenovic are correct, then their results are extremely worrying, especially as autism is not the only condition to which their paper linked the adjuvant aluminum.

In fact, their paper also linked aluminum to the rise in the incidence of Alzheimer’s, Gulf War syndrome and a relatively new syndrome, ASIA (autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants) that was identified by scientists last year.

The body simply can't deal properly with gunk in the blood stream.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/12/19/vaccines-sold-by-marketing-fear-of-disease-bmj-report/
Vaccines Sold by Marketing Fear of Disease: BMJ Report

The British Medical Journal (BMJ), one of the world’s most highly revered scientific medical publications, has published an article that condemns influenza vaccines and their marketing. The last sentence reads:

It’s no wonder so many people feel that “flu shots” don’t work: for most flus, they can’t.[1]

Dr. Doshi has eviscerated both the claims in support of influenza vaccination and the inherent character of our health regulatory agencies. So, will we see any change in the health regulation agencies’ push to vaccinate every human and animal on the face of the earth?

Not a chance. The CDC and virtually all the other so-called health agencies ceased to be protectors of people’s health decades ago, and likely never were. They are nothing but a marketing front for Big Pharma and Big Medicine.

 

[kookbreaker]

http://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

This Study Reveals Children are Being Vaccinated With Toxic Levels of Aluminium Causing Neurological Damage and Autism

A study printed in a pay-to=publish journal by two anti-vax cranks. Pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

The body simply can't deal properly with gunk in the blood stream.

Then we must die instantly the moment something enters an open wound, like air, or water.

 

[Tomtomkent]

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/12/19/vaccines-sold-by-marketing-fear-of-disease-bmj-report/
Vaccines Sold by Marketing Fear of Disease: BMJ Report

Why link to discussion of a BMJ report and not the report itself?
And what does this have to do with autism?
Why should we worry about poor marketing that has no influence of the effectiveness of the jab against the strains it is intended to target?

 

[Estellea]

http://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

This Study Reveals Children are Being Vaccinated With Toxic Levels of Aluminium Causing Neurological Damage and Autism

Right, except they didn't and had to fudge their data to make it fit with their pre-conceived conclusion. That ain't the way to do science. Another red flag is the funding source; an anti-vaxx nutter matron Claire Dwoskin. Why aren't you complaining about that? Aren't you all about who funds studies?

The body simply can't deal properly with gunk in the blood stream.

Define "gunk" please and also tell us what kind of "gunk" might be in wild-type pathogens like vaccine preventable diseases that infect children.

Este

 

[Estellea]

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/12/19/vaccines-sold-by-marketing-fear-of-disease-bmj-report/
Vaccines Sold by Marketing Fear of Disease: BMJ Report

I don't defend flu vaccine policy, in fact I've been highly critical of it.

But what does this have to do with vaccines causing autism?

Este

 

[Estellea]

Clayton, I'd like to know why you won't answer this post? You raised the spectre of autism=encephalitis via MMR so it is only fair that you answer the question before bounding off yet again to another subject.

It's a simple question, A or B which is worse?

Este

 

[pakeha]

...The body simply can't deal properly with gunk in the blood stream.

What?
What vaxx are given intravenously?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_intravenous_vaccines?#slide=1

 

[Loss Leader]

This thread is being taken off moderated status. Thank you.

Posted By: Loss Leader

 

[Hans]

I believe Clayton has figured out a fool proof way to avoid ever having to answer all those pesky questions that were pending and he was trying to stay away from....he got himself banned.

So long Mr. Moore, ἀποχαιρετίζω and good luck fighting off 99.9999 % of the world's population whom you held to be communists!

 

[000063]

It's going to be a lot more boring forum without the old dog.

Albeit a saner one.

 

[sackett]

The Mods* say, with cool brevity, that Clay's gone west "for repeated violations of the membership agreement." Well la de dah, Buffalo Bob. Let him keep on violating, so that, in Dr. Johnson's words, "we may laugh at him all day."


* May Allah heap blessings upon Them, of course, I didn't mean anything by what I said, oh please Dear Mods don't ban m

 

[catsmate]

This thread is being taken off moderated status. Thank you.

Posted By: Loss Leader

The title still says [Moderated].

 

[Reality Check]

http://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

This Study Reveals Children are Being Vaccinated With Toxic Levels of Aluminium Causing Neurological Damage and Autism

An anti-vaccine web site lies about a scientific study - big surprise, Clayton Moore !
The cited study found a "pronounced and statistically highly significant correlation between the number vaccines with aluminum and the changes in autism rates.". That is correlation - not causation.
The ignorance in looking at the number of ASD cases between 1991 and 2008 is obvious - the criteria for diagnosing ASD changed !
Rise In Autism Is Related To Changes In Diagnosis, New Study Suggests
Even comparing the number of ASD cases between countries is doubtful because diagnosis standards need not be consistent between the countries.

ETA: The results are not new. Figure 7 is taken from their 2011 paper on the same subject.
"Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?" is analyzed at
And global warming is caused by the decrease in the number of pirates or: Why an inorganic chemistry journal should not publish a vaccine epidemiology paper