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Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

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spin0 said:
Yes, some countries in Europe do need also Russian gas. But to an extent Russia has been losing that sort of power. Currently about 1/3 of Europe's gas is from Russia and the biggest supplier is Norway with its growing share. Here's a good assessment: Shifting energy trends blunt Russia’s natural-gas weapon
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ANd I also think there is going to be a "Do we really want to be dependent on a thug like Putin for our Gas" feeling in Europe and they will be looking very hard for different suppliers.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Is that guy really dual-wielding a rifle and a pistol? :confused:
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It's a flare gun. It's probably loaded with a colored smoke round for signal purposes. That's a 40mm grenade launcher the guy behind him has, and the rifle of the guy with the flare gun looks to be an AK-74 (no I didn't mistype).

Pretty nice gear actually.

The white armbands mark them as pro-Russian forces though. The same arm bands were used when taking Parliament.

EDIT: The other pictures show at least two 40mm grenade launchers and an AK-74U. And I'm not 100% sure on the flare gun.
 
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Also from Slate: Vladimir Putin is miscalculating how easy it will be to control a Crimean mini-state

So, while Vladimir Putin rattles his sabers, the authorities in Kiev might decide to just hold tight, for now. If Yanukovych destroyed his own power, he may very well destroy Putin’s as well. The fugitive ex-president, whose greed extended deep into the peninsula, isn’t a popular figure there either and any efforts to install him—especially if they bring real hardship to the locals—may spark a Maidan II.
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Interesting.
 
tyr_13 said:
It's a flare gun. It's probably loaded with a colored smoke round for signal purposes. That's a 40mm grenade launcher the guy behind him has, and the rifle of the guy with the flare gun looks to be an AK-74 (no I didn't mistype).

Pretty nice gear actually.

The white armbands mark them as pro-Russian forces though. The same arm bands were used when taking Parliament.

EDIT: The other pictures show at least two 40mm grenade launchers and an AK-74U. And I'm not 100% sure on the flare gun.
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God, at night it would be hard to tell a Russian Soldier from a US soldier with that gear except for the AK.
 
dudalb said:
ANd I also think there is going to be a "Do we really want to be dependent on a thug like Putin for our Gas" feeling in Europe and they will be looking very hard for different suppliers.
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Because there weren't thugs before him supplying Europe gas? :rolleyes:
 
spin0 said:
Lithuania, Latvia and now also Poland have invoked the NATO treaty's IV Article.

(Lithuania invokes Nato treaty on Ukraine)

NATO will now meet at their request.

Meanwhile in NY the UN Security Council open meeting is beginning. At first Russia tried to insist against holding the meeting open but apparently lost the vote about the procedure.
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How on earth? Ukraine's not a NATO member.

I see we've been amusing ourselves critiquing the wiki while ignoring everything relevant it or we have added to the subject at hand. The "fake Berkut" debate is not relevant, even tho IDB87 found that "law reinforcement" passage just as amusing as the White Power crowd did, who re-posted unchanged that funny claim about their buddies on the frontline.


Anybody figure out yet how much of the elected parliament has been voting lately? Is it more or less than half representative now?
 
Caustic Logic said:
How on earth? Ukraine's not a NATO member.

I see we've been amusing ourselves critiquing the wiki while ignoring everything relevant it or we have added to the subject at hand. The "fake Berkut" debate is not relevant, even tho IDB87 found that "law reinforcement" passage just as amusing as the White Power crowd did, who re-posted unchanged that funny claim about their buddies on the frontline.


Anybody figure out yet how much of the elected parliament has been voting lately? Is it more or less than half representative now?
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Uh, because the other Ex Members Of the Soviet Union are afraid that this might just be the start of Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Empire relabeled "Greater Russia".

I find your love of authoritarian dictators and your willingness to shill for them to be disturbing.

No matter what PUtin does, the Useful Idiot brigade will defend him.....
 
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And one more thing on the wiki and its "pro-Assad" bias (close enough I guess, if crude - that's how it'll read). I tried to explain our bias and the reasons for it here:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal
Who else acknowledges and explains their bias? Corporate media? They have none of course!

Childlike Empress said:
Seen the leaked Klitschko mails?
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I'm not WITH the other skeptics, but I'm skeptical. Vague wording about "offers," "American friends," etc. Could be real, but I put it under the 50/50 mark. Anonymous is not a source I trust, with an agenda I can be clear on. Could be disinformation. Plus, I somehow can hardly ever trust convenient hacked e-mails, and sometimes (BritAm in Syria) it's clearly right not to.

So moving back to piecing together what happened, not what e-mails might've said...
 
Caustic Logic said:
And one more thing on the wiki and its "pro-Assad" bias (close enough I guess, if crude - that's how it'll read). I tried to explain our bias and the reasons for it here:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal
Who else acknowledges and explains their bias? Corporate media? They have none of course!



I'm not WITH the other skeptics, but I'm skeptical. Vague wording about "offers," "American friends," etc. Could be real, but I put it under the 50/50 mark. Anonymous is not a source I trust, with an agenda I can be clear on. Could be disinformation. Plus, I somehow can hardly ever trust convenient hacked e-mails, and sometimes (BritAm in Syria) it's clearly right not to.

So moving back to piecing together what happened, not what e-mails might've said...
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Your imitation of somebody "just trying to find out facts" is not very impressive.
 
dudalb said:
Uh, because the other Ex Members Of the Soviet Union are afraid that this might just be the start of Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Empire relabeled "Greater Russia".

I find your love of authoritarian dictators and your willingness to shill for them to be disturbing.

No matter what PUtin does, the Useful Idiot brigade will defend him.....
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Ah ... getting worried is cause to invoke the mutual self-defense clause, or at least get it ready, go out and get the car warming up. Sounds a bit touchy, illogical, and designed more to make some kind of point to Russia than anything else. I suspect they'll be unfazed.
 
geni said:
Fact is the classic Anonymous don't look to be very interested and what web activism there is tends to be on the anti-russian side for obvious reasons.
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How do you know the reasons if they're anonymous? I'm presuming there are reasons, but I wouldn't claim to know them.
 
L.Y.S. said:
Why do people insist that neo-Nazis haven't played their hand in Ukraine? Most of the organizations responsible for the Euromaidan were far-right organizations. Neutral protestors certainly took part, but far-right activists are the ones who made most of the critical moves.

I don't understand why people insist on denying this.
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Because:
Someone made sure the Nazis there, if any, and where the hell else would they be, did not advertise it with their symbols. Thus it's possible to deny they had any real hand (sure, there were probably 5 or more but well below the mark of mattering)

Why choose to take that opportunity to deny? Because it simplifies and cleans up an excellent "sticking it to Putin" moment. Anyone who says there were significant Nazis is a paid Putin shill, or a free agent to same effect. Case closed.
 
crescent said:
The visible lack of Nazi symbols was proof that there were many Nazis. You now, there is a CT forum, you might get a better response by posting over there. Seriously, you are proposing a CT, you might as well accuse the Lizard people of being the snipers.
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A parade of ridicule marching a non-level surface. You cut out the most relevant part of the quote to make it sound silly. "...the Nazi contingent was there, larger and better-planned than usual, and also party to agreements that stipulate things like "don't brandish your images during this thing..."

I'll ask again - where, if not around the Maidan and up the Insytutska, were the usual Nazi mobs in these days? Can you venture even a guess what they were busy with and where?

ETA: If no one has proof otherwise, I'm thinking they did their part and showed up, at usual levels and seriousness or higher. Simple logic would suggest that.

So, the insurgents controlled the lower floors of the building, but Berkut controlled the upper floors. If they shut down the elevators, Berkut would only need to hold the stairwells to hold their position. A stairwell would be an easy thing to hold.
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Okay, this is a counter-theory based on considering evidence. Very good. Protesters seem to have run the ground level everything by the end, including the lobby of course. They ran the room at least RT filmed them in with the air gun. What floor, I don't know. They ran the security that was checking rooms for snipers. What floor, I don't know.

ETA: So, upper floors excluded is possible

They surged over police lines everywhere they existed. I imagine if the Berkut were positioned up top, they'd bust down doors if needed and go up the stairs, and take them out. By after sunset, snipers were still shooting from the second to top floor.

ETA: With guns, stairwells and elevators could be guarded pretty well, sure. But then we can talk grenades, and so on....

And that sniper seen by the BBC reporter (reportedly) had a green construction helmet. Possibly, that was to blame the protesters, but they did a poor job of that if so, disappearing again as soon as spotted, and NOT letting the camera see the green "proof." So that's not a very consistent line of thought.

My hunch - they were supposed to hear the shot but not see where it came from. When the sniper saw the reporter look right at him, he said oh **** and pretended not to be home (note between shots of the window, the curtain is pulled half-closed). Later, he realized how bright green his helmet was (you forget that when it's on your head) and said oh **** again. He needn't worry. No one cares. We're sticking it to Putin here and glossing over details like that.

And if the Berkut controlled the top floors, why did they never shoot the "protesters" of the vanguard, positioning themselves right below the hotel, to be ready to storm parliament if they decided to? The snipers at the gov. facilities were shooting them but mostly hitting shields. The insurgents here never shielded their backs (see video), as if the hotel at their backs had their backs, as if insurgent controlled, especially in the more deadly upper part where no snipers shot them.

So, those are my counter-thoughts and why I don't think your initial theory makes much sense, and my own still seems much better suited to the available evidence. Thanks for offering it, and what do you think now?

For the record, I don't expect anyone to even start seeing things my way even on a trial basis if they don't already, no matter what. That's because it's inconvenient, and extremely so. Of course, other reasons will be claimed. And possibly, I'll be surprised.
 
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dudalb said:
God, the Useful Idiot brigade is spinning like nothing I have seen for a while.
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Yup, the nutters are certainly crawling out of the woodwork today.

No one is talking a Military response, but there are lot of nasty econmic sanctions the West can do to make Czar Vladamir the 1st pay a steep price.
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Agreed. I'm more than certain that President Obama is working to orchestrate a broad international response along these lines. Of course, his critics will continue to moan that he needs to "do something" no matter what.

Never mind that Russia is still a nuclear power, which is a big deterrent from engaging in direct military action. But that won't stop the flag-waving loons in this country from foaming at the mouth.

IMHO we have just seen the start of "Cold War 2".
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I think this has been brewing for quite some time. Relations between Obama and Putin have been decidedly chilly for the last couple of years. I think that's because Obama saw this coming a long way off.

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a proxy war got started in Ukraine, with NATO funneling resources to Ukrainian soldiers and resistance fighters.

ETA: This is one reason why I'm glad that the Obama administration left open a variety of ways in which the International Space Station could be supplied. It used to be, since 2000, that the only way of getting to ISS was via Russian Soyuz capsules; no longer, now that other methods (through NASA, ESA, the Japanese, and private) of transport and resupply are up and running.

It's also good that we've got R&D on the Space Launch System in full swing, for related reasons. Test launches for the SLS begin in only 3 years.
 
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