Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Of course in Italy there is no such thing as airborne DNA contamination, so their buildings don't have to be designed to take this potential problem into account.

Well as you have you told us and it is well known, LCN labs have positive pressure hoods because DNA DOES FLY.

 

[sunmaster14]

Dan

I am totally confused about Patrick and his phone(s). Did he have one or two? If two, did the cops find them both or not? If not, why not (rhetorical - unless you happen to know)? I bet that second phone was hidden together with the knife in his kitchen drawer where nobody would ever think to look.

Anglo, I'm not sure I understand your point. Is your theory that the police knew all along about Lumumba's innocent SMS to Knox (which prompted Knox's innocent reply) but deleted Lumumba's SMS so as to allow Knox's reply to be cast in a suspicious light?

 

[platonov]

The thing about medicine

I don't. It is obvious that 9-10PM is your window for TOD. It is also pretty obvious that some posters are trying to get a reaction rather than a discussion.

I'm not either as the opening of my post made clear.

I was merely curious about the transition from semi digested to still recognizable and the avoidance of quantification w.r.t. this aspect in Rolfe's many, more or less identical, posts on this issue.


It seems no answer will be forthcoming [LJ's hasty and confused response aside] so there we must leave it.

 

[sunmaster14]

Remarkable. He had her interrogated on the strength of an innocent text that his own editing made suspicious. Then he had her arrested on the strength of an illegally coerced statement designed to validate that suspicion.

And then -- instead of admitting that this exchange was meaningless with respect to the murder once PL's alibi was confirmed -- he continued to pursue her and Raffaele, even in the absence of forensics that pointed toward their involvement.

Just amazing.

I think the original sin in the investigation was the erroneous determination very early on that the break-in had been staged. This cast suspicion on Knox, but of course Knox was physically incapable of killing single-handedly (at least without getting injured herself). So the police then fished around to find a possible male accomplice (other than Sollecito since he didn't quite match the stereotype).

 

[platonov]

Extradition & silence.

So the deadline for the petition is almost up, What is at ~ 2k.

Now this raises a Q - How many copies of her book did AK sell in the US.
I asked previously IIRC but no answer was forthcoming – Lets say at a guess 15k. I am open to correction on this obviously.

Now this poses a problem for her w.r.t the anti extradition PR drive.
She needs to get her message out but apparently the more people hear from her directly the less they believe in her innocence.

Quite the dilemma. It appears it may be in her best interest to Shut Up for a while.

No ?

The same apparently applies to RS – the PR campaign in Italy has also had some reverses it seems.

 

[platonov]

Waiting to be heard indeed

Further to my last post ..

It appears AK has a couple of videos out ??
They don’t appear to be exciting much comment here.

Whats up with that.
There was a time her fans couldn’t get enough images of her and clamored to hear her speak.

Now she is being ignored in favour of issues that were debated to death and put to bed years ago.

Waiting to be heard indeed

 

[Antony]

Shag means something sexual in Britain doesn't it?

Shag n. an act of sex; vt. to perform an act of sex with someone.

Does Shaggy play any part in that?

No - "shaggy" just means "hairy".

 

[NancyS]

So the deadline for the petition is almost up, What is at ~ 2k.

Now this raises a Q - How many copies of her book did AK sell in the US.
I asked previously IIRC but no answer was forthcoming – Lets say at a guess 15k. I am open to correction on this obviously.

Now this poses a problem for her w.r.t the anti extradition PR drive.
She needs to get her message out but apparently the more people hear from her directly the less they believe in her innocence.

Quite the dilemma. It appears it may be in her best interest to Shut Up for a while.

No ?

The same apparently applies to RS – the PR campaign in Italy has also had some reverses it seems.

As far as I was aware the petition was created prematurely, as no request for extradition has been made and the case has to go before the Supreme Court again - therefore no real effort has been made to get signatures - we'll have to wait and see what support she gets if extradition is requested

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglo, I'm not sure I understand your point. Is your theory that the police knew all along about Lumumba's innocent SMS to Knox (which prompted Knox's innocent reply) but deleted Lumumba's SMS so as to allow Knox's reply to be cast in a suspicious light?

No! But thanks for asking . I have a fully-integrated theory of everything covering the period 02-05 Nov. I am just waiting for the evidence to roll in. On this point, the cops knew about the exchange early on, due to checking her phone records and they saw the exchange with a number that proved to be Patrick's and they also noticed she turned her phone off right after. 2+2=5!

They beavered away in the ensuing few days identifying Patrick and then made an innocent show out of wanting to see her phone. Their theory was very strong and even survived the discovery that his message did not say 'let's go kill her'. Their theory was fortified by the facts she, as it seemed to them, affected not to remember the messages and, wonder of wonders, part of her message fit their theory. The cognitive dissonance of the rest forced them to ditch the awkward parts. Just like those alleles had to be classified as stutter on the clasp.

That's what happened anyway.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm not either as the opening of my post made clear.

I was merely curious about the transition from semi digested to still recognizable and the avoidance of quantification w.r.t. this aspect in Rolfe's many, more or less identical, posts on this issue.


It seems no answer will be forthcoming [LJ's hasty and confused response aside] so there we must leave it.

Sorry, your posts are largely incomprehensible and I have no desire to even attempt to make sense of what you are trying to say any longer. I am not interested in playing patty cake with you.

 

[RoseMontague]

No! But thanks for asking . I have a fully-integrated theory of everything covering the period 02-05 Nov. I am just waiting for the evidence to roll in. On this point, the cops knew about the exchange early on, due to checking her phone records and they saw the exchange with a number that proved to be Patrick's and they also noticed she turned her phone off right after. 2+2=5!

They beavered away in the ensuing few days identifying Patrick and then made an innocent show out of wanting to see her phone. Their theory was very strong and even survived the discovery that his message did not say 'let's go kill her'. Their theory was fortified by the facts she, as it seemed to them, affected not to remember the messages and, wonder of wonders, part of her message fit their theory. The cognitive dissonance of the rest forced them to ditch the awkward parts. Just like those alleles had to be classified as stutter on the clasp.

That's what happened anyway.

Speaking of police deleting messages this testimony seems to suggest just that possibility (don't get too excited Clive, not that message). I can just see Comodi in high pitched shrill "I exclude it!" It is just too funny not to share..

Pellero p166-168
COMODI: Yes, but I have to connect to the Internet.
A: No, the terminal is connected, it’s always ready to connect, if the Context is not open it opens automatically when an MMS is received otherwise the MMS would never be received.
COMODI: But was the MMS found in the memory?
A: I wasn’t the one to carry out these tests, the Postal Police did it.
COMODI: Exactly, so taking for granted that the Postal Police did not alter the contents of Meredith’s cell phone…
A: But nothing is taken for granted, because there are 3 calls missing from the list… there are also 3 items missing of the 30 memorized last calls, nobody has doubted what they have done, then there is the log, so … we have another case, on the 2nd in the afternoon when Meredith was dead…
COMODI: Excuse me, so we don’t take anything for granted, because this is what interests me, we don’t take anything for granted and so it’s being suggested the Postal Police deleted the MMS, and then?
A: We continue to confuse the terminology, the fact that I don’t take anything for granted is because I don’t know…
President: Excuse me, the fact?
A: That I can’t take for granted what had been done before, because I don’t know what the Postal Police did, this does not mean that I wish to claim that they made mistakes, it just means I can’t exclude it!
COMODI: On the other hand I can exclude it, so excluding the possibility that the Postal Police could have deleted some potential evidence…
Intervention (?) - But who decided that?
Comodi: I exclude it!
President: Let’s hypothesize that this is the case, what would the question be?
COMODI: Hypothesizing, because I take for granted that they did not delete evidence, the absence of the MMS, other than the intentional deletion by the Postal Police, what could have caused it?
President: Given this hypothesis that the Prosecutor says didn’t happen…
A: I’m a technician and so I can respond also hypothetically: given this hypothesis what could have caused a situation where a user who had it in his hand deleted it before the telephone was taken as evidence.
President: Before the telephone was taken?
A: before it was handed over as evidence.
COMODI: So it was deleted when thrown?
A: No no, let’s not confuse things, I’m responding hypothetically to the possibility that an MMS received is no longer found on the telephone, the simplest explanation is that it was deleted, I continually delete MMS advertisements.
COMODI: Well, certainly not the murderer then!
President: However let’s avoid these…
A: I’m a technician, I can’t say more than this.

 

[sunmaster14]

No! But thanks for asking . I have a fully-integrated theory of everything covering the period 02-05 Nov. I am just waiting for the evidence to roll in. On this point, the cops knew about the exchange early on, due to checking her phone records and they saw the exchange with a number that proved to be Patrick's and they also noticed she turned her phone off right after. 2+2=5!

They beavered away in the ensuing few days identifying Patrick and then made an innocent show out of wanting to see her phone. Their theory was very strong and even survived the discovery that his message did not say 'let's go kill her'. Their theory was fortified by the facts she, as it seemed to them, affected not to remember the messages and, wonder of wonders, part of her message fit their theory. The cognitive dissonance of the rest forced them to ditch the awkward parts. Just like those alleles had to be classified as stutter on the clasp.

That's what happened anyway.

That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Skind]

Speaking of police deleting messages this testimony seems to suggest just that possibility (don't get too excited Clive, not that message). I can just see Comodi in high pitched shrill "I exclude it!" It is just too funny not to share..

I honestly thought this exchange was invented as a comedy riff on Comodi.


But, no, it appears she actually did act in the way described.

Why on earth was Comodi not told to shut up and let the witness answer the questions?

 

[Desert Fox]

So the deadline for the petition is almost up, What is at ~ 2k.

I was asked not to promote it so I did not. Maybe it is the wrong call but hard to tell the right and wrong call. If it comes down to extradition, I will write a physical letter to the office of the president with my opposition to it.

 

[anglolawyer]

Speaking of police deleting messages this testimony seems to suggest just that possibility (don't get too excited Clive, not that message). I can just see Comodi in high pitched shrill "I exclude it!" It is just too funny not to share..

That is indeed very funny. Thanks. This gets better all the time.

That makes perfect sense to me.

Cool

 

[Dan O.]

The testimony you have quoted proves they were interested but unsuccessful. How unlucky! Was it or was it not possible to get this information off the sim card? Luckily, that's your department not mine

They performed a routine forensics examination of the phones. They knew about the text exchange from Amanda's phone records so looked for the associated messages. Nothing abnormal about that. As for recovery from the sim card, first you need to know if the messages would be written there as opposed to the phones own memory. Sim cards can be removed and read off-line in a proper forensic way. This may have been discussed in the testimony. But the contents of the phones memory can only be accessed through the operating system of the phone itself which places a restrictions on the forensic examination. Where messages are saved is determined by the phones software and sometimes by a user config. That's where we start if we are to discover if these messages are recoverable or if there would be a trace as to the time of their deletion. We need the make, model and software version of each phone.

I have this part already in my wiki

Regarding Lumumba (Dea) was delivered to me a phone brand Nokia model 6070 identified by the IMEI code to which 354,548,014,227,987 inside was found a Sim Card issued by always operator Vodafone - Omnitel identified by code ICCD 222,015,300,304,251. (Testimony of Simone Tacconi 2009-03-20 pg 34)

ETA: I added this link "[http://www.forensicfocus.com/Forums/ ForensicFocus forums] Digital forensics" to the cell phone resources page.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

empty duodenum

To whom it may concern,

My argument about Meredith's digestive tract is about the emptiness of her duodenum and the fullness of her stomach. The state of digestion of the material in her stomach might be ancillary evidence.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't think that they were certified for even standard DNA profiling, but I have found this point to be a little bit tricky to document. They were definitely not set up for proper LCN work as done in the UK or in New Zealand: "Back at the laboratory, there are a range of measures from sticky mats to remove material from footwear to special fluids and ultra-violet light for cleaning the sparse examination area which has separate air conditioning to avoid contamination from air elsewhere in the building." link

Of course in Italy there is no such thing as airborne DNA contamination, so their buildings don't have to be designed to take this potential problem into account.

Well as you have you told us and it is well known, LCN labs have positive pressure hoods because DNA DOES FLY.

These are the biggest thing I would hard on as the defense and Raffaele should have been more assertive in his interview. I think I understand this issue better than he seems to yet this is not an issue which means years in jail for me.

"Look, what matter is that the physical evidence does not support me at the crime scene. The little DNA evidence is poor and easily explainable by contamination. I have, after all, been in the house and did touch things."

Don't use the words innocent transfer, use contamination

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Speaking of police deleting messages this testimony seems to suggest just that possibility (don't get too excited Clive, not that message). I can just see Comodi in high pitched shrill "I exclude it!" It is just too funny not to share..

Jesus iced. I was preoccupied with the evidence and the facts of the crime, and I have no knowledge of the Italian language, so I have largely overlooked the content of the trial testimony. I'm gradually starting to get a sense of just how ugly it was.

The entire court system of Italy is now in a position where they are having to defend and protect... this?

And Comodi is the brains of the operation next to Mignini.

It will be interesting to see what the judicial sages of Italy do over the next year or so. They have well and truly boxed themselves into a dilemma.

 

[Matthew Best]

Now this raises a Q - How many copies of her book did AK sell in the US.
I asked previously IIRC but no answer was forthcoming – Lets say at a guess 15k.

I have no idea of the correct figure but I was just wondering how you came by your guess?