Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

@anglolawyer: I'd love to see a guilter version of what they think those nine elements mean. Osmotically.
@grinder: It's funny but I had that exact thought yesterday. The guilter TOD is whenever A&R don't have digital proof that they were at R's flat.

TOD was actually about 9:15. I think that Rudy -- having gotten away with B & E so recently, thought that he could talk his way out of it again. I also think that -- as his Perugia friends reported -- he saw himself as good with the ladies.

He approached Meredith in her room while she was taking off her shoes. She screamed, maybe kicked him, and so he attacked her. Once it started he was overtaken by the rush of power & the rage against her for "forcing" him to subdue her.

I can tell you exactly what the guilters would say about the list of reasons supporting an early TOD (to which not turning on the heating should be added - thank you Grinder). They would dismiss them severally and refuse to combine them. The next sentence is very deep, get ready (I am serious). The difference between the parties is largely a matter of weight. As in: what weight should you give to this (evidence) and how much to that? OK, two sentences. They do not assign weight reasonably.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

methods of collection could have been better

I still have problems with why is Amanda's DNA or even blood in the bathroom meaning anything, mixed or otherwise. If you read her book, her underwear when she was locked up was stained with menstrual blood. Maybe she misremembers but certainly plausible.

Desert Fox,

Her DNA was probably present when Guede cleaned Meredith's blood up and the blood landed on old biological matter that was already present in the sink or bidet. The method of collection (swabbing large areas, dropping at least one swab, not changing gloves frequently, etc.) might have led to more mixed DNA samples than they otherwise would have collected. Substrate controls would have helped clarify things, but not every lab does them.

 

[Desert Fox]

Desert Fox,

Her DNA was probably present when Guede cleaned Meredith's blood up and the blood landed on old biological matter that was already present in the sink or bidet. The method of collection (swabbing large areas, dropping at least one swab, not changing gloves frequently, etc.) might have led to more mixed DNA samples than they otherwise would have collected. Substrate controls would have helped clarify things, but not every lab does them.

Pretty much knew all that. I think I argued almost the same thing on another board before I used anything you posted. I tried to use your arguments (linking to you page) to bolster my arguments but of course the one I was arguing with would have none of it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Serious, precise and consistent. Or serious precise and grave. Or precise, grave and consistent. Definitely one of those. And don't forget the inverse proportions thing, also crucial in Italian jurisprudence. Actually, I have forgotten it but, no matter, I know where to find it in case of need. Curiously, that has not cropped up yet in the 5 or 6 continuation threads I have followed, so it must be in the first two . I am certain it will come in handy again soon.

Seriously flawed, consistently stupid, and gravely ominous.

 

[Grinder]

Desert Fox,

Her DNA was probably present when Guede cleaned Meredith's blood up and the blood landed on old biological matter that was already present in the sink or bidet. The method of collection (swabbing large areas, dropping at least one swab, not changing gloves frequently, etc.) might have led to more mixed DNA samples than they otherwise would have collected. Substrate controls would have helped clarify things, but not every lab does them.

Is there any evidence of such a clean up?

It is of a little weight that Meredith's blood is mixed only with Amanda's especially in Filomena's room and in the hallway.

The sink DNA is of no weight at all, particularly the way it was collected.

Did they do luminol in Meredith's room?

 

[Grinder]

I can tell you exactly what the guilters would say about the list of reasons supporting an early TOD (to which not turning on the heating should be added - thank you Grinder). They would dismiss them severally and refuse to combine them. The next sentence is very deep, get ready (I am serious). The difference between the parties is largely a matter of weight. As in: what weight should you give to this (evidence) and how much to that? OK, two sentences. They do not assign weight reasonably.

With the enactment of C.P.P. Article 192, our legislature has set forth the rules for assessing evidence in a criminal trial. Circumstantial evidence is dealt with in the second paragraph of the Article, which specifies that “The existence of a fact cannot be inferred [desunta] from circumstantial evidence unless the latter is serious, precise, and consistent [gravi, precisi, e concordanti].”​

I don't know that it is known that the heat was never turned on that night.

The point remains that all circumstantial evidence that has been brought forward matches an earlier than 10 pm TOD and only direct witness testimony even could point to a later TOD.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

inference

Is there any evidence of such a clean up?

It is of a little weight that Meredith's blood is mixed only with Amanda's especially in Filomena's room and in the hallway.

The sink DNA is of no weight at all, particularly the way it was collected.

Did they do luminol in Meredith's room?

Grinder,

The fact that Meredith's blood is in the sink and bidet suggest that someone transported it (unless a portion of the attack occurred there). Guede must have had blood on his hand to make the print on the pillowcase. IIRC Guede talked about his trouser leg being wet. From these facts I would infer he rinsed off in some way. The mixed DNA that comes from luminol-positive material is essentially worthless because it was collected after non-forensic police officers had been present. Even the FP could have tracked Amanda's or Meredith's biological matter into Filomena's room.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

The fact that Meredith's blood is in the sink and bidet suggest that someone transported it (unless a portion of the attack occurred there). Guede must have had blood on his hand to make the print on the pillowcase. IIRC Guede talked about his trouser leg being wet. From these facts I would infer he rinsed off in some way. The mixed DNA that comes from luminol-positive material is essentially worthless because it was collected after non-forensic police officers had been present. Even the FP could have tracked Amanda's or Meredith's biological matter into Filomena's room.

Sorry misread what you said. Of course, he cleaned blood off himself and that's how her blood ended up in that bathroom.

 

[AmyStrange]

When I was a GUMPer...

-

This is an issue I raised a little while ago. The initial Perugia crime scene team seem to have done a reasonable job. The second visit by Stefanoni et al is different. Stefanoni is a laboratory scientist. What I am unclear about is what qualification she has to carry out a crime scene investigation. The team behave like a group of lab rats on a field trip, they get dressed up but they don't really know how to behave. they pick up the bra fastener pass it around then put it back down to photograph. The mere fact they failed to photo the fastener in situ prior to collecting is an indictment. The fact that they subsequently posed it is almost perjury. Perhaps mach will come to the rescue but from what I have been able to find Stef should never have been at the crime scene her job is to do the lab analysis (and she does not do that well).

-

even then, everything I had read and heard about that search in Dec when they found the bra clasp, all of it just sounded just so freakin' weird.

I like how you put it, like they were filming a field trip. All they were missing was the Mystery Van and Scooby Do. I wonder who Shaggy would be?

Shag means something sexual in Britain doesn't it? Does Shaggy play any part in that?

Ooooops, gotta go, first game of the Mariners' preseason starts in a couple. Heard some good rumours and talk about them for this year...

d

-

 

[kwill]

Apologize in advance, because I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I'm unable to locate the discussion.

Are there reliable records about the timing/recordings/translations of wiretaps placed on the phones of Amanda, Raffaele, or any other "witnesses" during the period from Nov 1 through their arrest on Nov 6?

 

[Dan O.]

I can tell you exactly what the guilters would say about the list of reasons supporting an early TOD (to which not turning on the heating should be added - thank you Grinder).

What is the evidence that the heat was not turned on? It seems to be in conflict with the photographic evidence which I have annotated showing all the controls were set to provide heat.

The difference between the parties is largely a matter of weight.

I have found that a good deal of the difference is wait as in they keep waiting for the next official pronouncement in hops that the judge will toss them a better bone.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

At very first, I thought you wrote boner.

It almost does sometimes seem like they're getting off on the hate though,

d

-

 

[Dan O.]

Apologize in advance, because I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I'm unable to locate the discussion.

Are there reliable records about the timing/recordings/translations of wiretaps placed on the phones of Amanda, Raffaele, or any other "witnesses" during the period from Nov 1 through their arrest on Nov 6?

Yes. They call it a "Rit". The prosecution presents this to a judge to get permission for the tap to insure that rights are not violated.


To answer your followup question, No. We have not seen these Rit's. I know that the defense asked for a listing of the intercepts but don't know if one was provided.

 

[kwill]

Yes. They call it a "Rit". The prosecution presents this to a judge to get permission for the tap to insure that rights are not violated.


To answer your followup question, No. We have not seen these Rit's. I know that the defense asked for a listing of the intercepts but don't know if one was provided.

Thank you. How is it known, then, that there were taps during those days? I know it's been said that the police were in a hurry to get Amanda in jail because they knew (from wiretaps) that her mom was on her way.

Also, they knew that she'd spoken to PL, but I think that was because they were following her and saw her run into him outdoors somewhere.

Was there testimony about any of the recorded conversations?

 

[Samson]

CNN has just shown the pink sprayed bathroom in a further item just issued, and says Amanda showered in it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/26/world/europe/italy-knox-ex-boyfriend/

ETA two days old actually.

 

[Desert Fox]

The SGU in their second to last episode spoke about the Kitty Genovese and how the perceptions just were wrong. Seems to be a lot of flavors of that with those who believe in guilt. They look only at the media spin not about what the act evidence is.

 

[kwill]

CNN has just shown the pink sprayed bathroom in a further item just issued, and says Amanda showered in it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/26/world/europe/italy-knox-ex-boyfriend/

conflict sells.

they aren't going to get any eyeballs on their tv shows or webpages if they can't say something new -- in this case something that isn't even true.

here's the contact page: http://edition.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?106

if you send them a note, be sure to say that you won't bother watching them if they're going to publish misleading or false information. be polite and respectful; the message is that they were careless and got something important wrong. the "most trusted name in news" can't be doing that.

 

[Grinder]

CNN has just shown the pink sprayed bathroom in a further item just issued, and says Amanda showered in it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/26/world/europe/italy-knox-ex-boyfriend/

One of the "insiders" here should alert the defense team and get a youtube out asap showing the bathroom shot from CNN and the real picture demonstrating how this case has been misrepresented from the beginning.
This CNN show is a great opportunity for Amanda's case. It out there now after all this time and is easily proved to be completely misleading.

Make the video on this and maybe one or two other evidence based mistakes the media has perpetuated and use Marriott to contact all media about this.

I'm sure Fox, MSNBC, as well as the big three would love to bash CNN.

Time is of the essence.

 

[RoseMontague]

Dan O. On the lamp quote..Filomena's testimony, human translation..(roteoctober)

Q - Do you remember if in the course of the investigation you were shown a lamp for identification?
A - I did not understand
Q - The police did show to you a lamp to identify?
A - It seems to me the asked me about a lamp, they asked me about this lamp with a red button, (they asked me) where I could place it, I said I saw it (i.e. remember it ) in AManda's room, I don't remember if they showed it to me, I remember about the day they asked me about the lamps, how was the lamp in Amanda's room and I said that the lamp in Amanda's room had a red button to turn it on and off.
Q - Amanda's one?
A - Yes
Q - Hence in Meredith's room there was just one lamp?
A - Yes, the one she kept near the bed
Q - Near the bed.
A - Not on the night table, on the floor.
Q - Ok, on the floor. So you don't remember if you have been shown those lamps for identification.
A - No

Interesting she didn't see it when the door was busted open or hear any of them mention it.

 

[Dan O.]

Thank you. How is it known, then, that there were taps during those days? I know it's been said that the police were in a hurry to get Amanda in jail because they knew (from wiretaps) that her mom was on her way.

Also, they knew that she'd spoken to PL, but I think that was because they were following her and saw her run into him outdoors somewhere.

Was there testimony about any of the recorded conversations?

I just posted an excerpt from one of the tapped calls a page or two back. Amanda,s testimony was recorded so we got to hear a few of the intercepts first hand.

The bugging of Lumumba's bar we only recently learned of from one of the officers testimonies. Since none of those recordings were used in court we don't have a record of when it was installed.


For a subject like this, I have all of the documents and translations loaded on my mac mini. I'll come up with key words or phrases in both English and Italian and use Spotlight to narrow down which documents they are in. Then I scan through those documents and create a file with clipping of the relavent text and references. Sometimes the scan will produce more key words with which i start the process over. This is a chore but it gives the best overview of the subject. Then I use the result to extend my wiki.