Continued: (Ed) Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[blutoski]

Whether they join the group or just influence it from outside, if they want to make change in the skeptical movement, they need to at least be able to talk to members of the groups. But they've burned all their bridges and no one will listen to them... which makes it impossible for them to fulfil any of their activism goals.

OK, I understand that.

I guess I had two points in my post, the first was about actually joining an organization, and I think we're on the same page about that.

The second was that I think their perspective is that collaboration was their first choice, as well, but their requests were rejected, so they don't see value in that route anymore.

The dispute is whether the history was one of good requests being rejected because of institutional resistance (probably A+ view), or bad requests being rejected because they were unreasonable (probably the organizations' views).

 

[tsig]

What, they excommunicated him?

With bell, book and candle.

 

[Kochanski]

Mykeru has done an excellent video on Blockbot, now it is long, but so worth watching, just don't drink anything while you are watching it. It is called The Block Bot and the Dumbification of the Beeb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WjSQ2kVyQc

Enjoy, it really is good.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Enjoy, it really is good.

Incredibly annoying, certainly. I couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes, and 5 of those are the Newsnight report itself.

Given that this is such an old issue which has been done to death, can you just say whether this guy actually has anything new or relevant to say?

 

[Stout]

So what do you do when you've run out of things to to be a victim of,and grown weary of simply making things up ? Why, you hatch a conspiracy theory of course.

From the chemgeek

As for the bit about corporal punishment: It's been illegal in schools in my country for decades now, but oftentimes teachers get around that by getting the kids to apply corporal punishment, as the teachers know most parents will brush off, "A kid hit me today!" as just childhood squabbling, and will not believe the kid if they say it was on the teacher's orders. Or, at least, that was my experience growing up.

bolding mine

thread

 

[Mykeru]

Incredibly annoying, certainly. I couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes, and 5 of those are the Newsnight report itself.

Given that this is such an old issue which has been done to death, can you just say whether this guy actually has anything new or relevant to say?

Well, I do aspire to being incredibly annoying.

Mostly, I did the video not for general audiences, but for people who were already familiar with the issue because, well, it's been done to death. Only, a lot of that is initial reactions without the time and patience to take the long view and how it all fits in with the "woo-peddling carpet-baggers" who have infested the atheist and skeptical communities.

Although if you can point out where it's been done to death, I'd like to have a look. Compare notes. Steal **** for the Director's Cut.

I certainly didn't do it for the sort of person who can't get 10 minutes in and then asks if anything new or relevant was said. I know world-weary ennui goes a long way establishing people's net cred that they'v seen it all before. Although since these are the sort of people who can't get 10 minutes into something, I'm not quite sure how they they acquired that advanced level of jaded in the first place. Perhaps it's innate.

But analytics show that 25% of viewers sat through it in one fell swoop, which I think is not bad at all. And for those people I stuck little self-referential jokes about how damn long it was running.

Now, should anyone have gotten further in, say, 15 minutes or so, I would be very happy to talk up the issue, why I did it the way I did, and why I'm so incredibly annoying.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Although if you can point out where it's been done to death, I'd like to have a look. Compare notes. Steal **** for the Director's Cut.

In many blogs and YouTube accounts of the time. thunderf00t did quite an extensive video on it, or maybe even two. Most of the links will be in this thread from around the time.

I certainly didn't do it for the sort of person who can't get 10 minutes in and then asks if anything new or relevant was said. I know world-weary ennui goes a long way establishing people's net cred that they'v seen it all before. Although since these are the sort of people who can't get 10 minutes into something, I'm not quite sure how they they acquired that advanced level of jaded in the first place. Perhaps it's innate.

I'm more than prepared to watch a long video, if I get the impression that it's going to have something that's worth saying, and if I don't find the presentation style extremely grating. This video I found grating, and it's a subject that's been covered extensively elsewhere.

It seems that I've upset you with my criticism, and for that I can only apologise. I don't, however, retract my criticism. That's my honest opinion. If you put videos out there, you have to accept that there will be people who don't like them. Everybody has different tastes, and nobody and nothing are ever going to be liked by everyone.

So, I can understand that this paragraph may be you lashing back at me. If, however, it's a representative example of your actual approach to scepticism and critical thinking, then I think I was right not to give your video any more time. You've taken 3 sentences that I wrote about 1 specific video and from that you've assumed motive, personality traits, and extrapolated that my opinion on this one video must be my opinion on all videos.

So, again, I'm genuinely sorry I hurt your feelings, but so far you've not done anything to change my mind about the potential value in the content of your video. I'm more than prepared to admit that I was wrong about it, but you're not providing any impetus for me to do so. Perhaps you don't care, which is fine, but if you don't care whether I end up watching it or not, then you should also not care what I think of the presentation style.

But analytics show that 25% of viewers sat through it in one fell swoop, which I think is not bad at all. And for those people I stuck little self-referential jokes about how damn long it was running.

Good for you, and good for them.

 

[RayG]

Well, I do aspire to being incredibly annoying.

You seem to have succeeded, at least with me. I find it extremely difficult to sit through an 88 minute narrative from an ugly cartoon character unless it's really interesting.

Now, should anyone have gotten further in, say, 15 minutes or so...

Nearly made it. Got to 14:03.

RayG

 

[Mr. Scott]

You seem to have succeeded, at least with me. I find it extremely difficult to sit through an 88 minute narrative from an ugly cartoon character unless it's really interesting.

Nearly made it. Got to 14:03.

RayG

Yes, I was hesitant to give 1.5 hours to a subject I didn't initially believe needed more than 15-30 minutes, but got through the whole thing in one sitting by multitasking. I have mild quibbles but overall it was a good experience. Liked the coverage and revelations of the bloc-bot newscast. Always enjoy the red haired STFU monster. He also picked the Watson moment I felt most appalling, were she leaks her misandry.

 

[Mr. Scott]

So what do you do when you've run out of things to to be a victim of,and grown weary of simply making things up ? Why, you hatch a conspiracy theory of course.

From the chemgeek

"As for the bit about corporal punishment: It's been illegal in schools in my country for decades now, but oftentimes teachers get around that by getting the kids to apply corporal punishment, as the teachers know most parents will brush off, "A kid hit me today!" as just childhood squabbling, and will not believe the kid if they say it was on the teacher's orders. Or, at least, that was my experience growing up."

bolding mine

thread

FWIW, this actually happened to me in 7th grade. A teacher asked another kid to slap me in front of the class. That was the teacher's last year in the district. It got him fired.

 

[Cayvmann]

FWIW, this actually happened to me in 7th grade. A teacher asked another kid to slap me in front of the class. That was the teacher's last year in the district. It got him fired.

Punishment by proxy... nice. Even when corporal punishment was okay and fine with the establishment I saw teachers use students to punish others. Something of a power trip, I think.

 

[Kochanski]

Incredibly annoying, certainly. I couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes, and 5 of those are the Newsnight report itself.

Given that this is such an old issue which has been done to death, can you just say whether this guy actually has anything new or relevant to say?

I think he does. I think it is helpful sometimes to look at things after a bit of time has passed, especially if you were somehow involved in the event (I am blockbot level 2). A bit of distance and perspective can help, it is hard not to let emotions control your reactions when the event first happens. Also the examination of how Newsnight covered it and who their sources were was very interesting.

I like that it was a long piece, we get so much in tiny sound bites, it is refreshing to have an in depth examination of something.

 

[Mykeru]

In many blogs and YouTube accounts of the time. thunderf00t did quite an extensive video on it, or maybe even two. Most of the links will be in this thread from around the time.



I'm more than prepared to watch a long video, if I get the impression that it's going to have something that's worth saying, and if I don't find the presentation style extremely grating. This video I found grating, and it's a subject that's been covered extensively elsewhere.

It seems that I've upset you with my criticism, and for that I can only apologise. I don't, however, retract my criticism. That's my honest opinion. If you put videos out there, you have to accept that there will be people who don't like them. Everybody has different tastes, and nobody and nothing are ever going to be liked by everyone.

So, I can understand that this paragraph may be you lashing back at me. If, however, it's a representative example of your actual approach to scepticism and critical thinking, then I think I was right not to give your video any more time. You've taken 3 sentences that I wrote about 1 specific video and from that you've assumed motive, personality traits, and extrapolated that my opinion on this one video must be my opinion on all videos.

So, again, I'm genuinely sorry I hurt your feelings, but so far you've not done anything to change my mind about the potential value in the content of your video. I'm more than prepared to admit that I was wrong about it, but you're not providing any impetus for me to do so. Perhaps you don't care, which is fine, but if you don't care whether I end up watching it or not, then you should also not care what I think of the presentation style.



Good for you, and good for them.

I'm not upset. I find people who take the time to opine "TL;DR" and then ask "anything worth it in there" to be amusing. Although I find your attempt to pat me on the head all patronizing-like and make this about my feelings, or you and me, rather than the issues you are already tired of to be, well, ham-fisted.

But you are right. I really don't care.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think he does. I think it is helpful sometimes to look at things after a bit of time has passed, especially if you were somehow involved in the event (I am blockbot level 2). A bit of distance and perspective can help, it is hard not to let emotions control your reactions when the event first happens. Also the examination of how Newsnight covered it and who their sources were was very interesting.

Can you be a little more specific as to what's in there that hasn't already been covered?

I find people who take the time to opine "TL;DR" and then ask "anything worth it in there" to be amusing.

I didn't say "too long, didn't read", I said "presented in a really annoying way, so I find it difficult to get through". I asked if there was anything worth it there because, if you do have something new to say about it that's worth hearing, then I may be able to put my feelings aside in order to get to the meat. And, once more, your mischaracterisation of my posts in this thread don't exactly support the idea that you'll be any more of a clear thinker, or will present any more of an honest argument in your video.

As it is, I did go back and watch another 5 minutes, and I found it very light on facts and evidence, but quite full of supposition and the grouping together of large numbers of people as all sharing identical mindsets. So I remain unconvinced that your analysis offers anything worthwhile.

 

[Kochanski]

Can you be a little more specific as to what's in there that hasn't already been covered?

I would say his information on the sources "experts" that Paul Mason uses is while maybe not new, certainly is interesting.

Look, I am not going to go over his 1 1/2 hour video point by point. I found it interesting and found it useful to look at with some distance from the event. It is his video from his perspective, it may not be to your liking, but I enjoyed it and I appreciate his humor.

Things don't have to be new to be interesting, and there are plenty of things that have had lots of coverage that are worth further coverage. He took time to put together 1 1/2 hour video and did far more research than Paul Mason did in his BBC piece. That I find quite sad and amusing at the same time.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Look, I am not going to go over his 1 1/2 hour video point by point.

I've not asked you to.

It seems that the answer is that there's little, if anything, in the video that hasn't already been covered elsewhere and, judging by what I've seen of it, and the author's contributions to this thread, there's not going to be much in the way of reasoned arguments or accurate representations of the facts in it, either.

I very much get the sense that it's not worth the bother, so I shan't.

 

[Kochanski]

I've not asked you to.

It seems that the answer is that there's little, if anything, in the video that hasn't already been covered elsewhere and, judging by what I've seen of it, and the author's contributions to this thread, there's not going to be much in the way of reasoned arguments or accurate representations of the facts in it, either.

I very much get the sense that it's not worth the bother, so I shan't.

It is your choice to view or not to view.

However, there are reasoned arguments and accurate representations of the facts in it. Getting 10 minutes into it does not even begin give you an idea what he is covering, so you are being a bit unfair to him.

If you don't like the way he writes here it is unlikely you will enjoy the video, though you still might learn something from watching it.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

However, there are reasoned arguments and accurate representations of the facts in it. Getting 10 minutes into it does not even begin give you an idea what he is covering, so you are being a bit unfair to him.

I've seen him present unsupported/inaccurate and unreasoned arguments both here and in the video. I think that's a reasonable criterion upon which to judge. How many more arguments do I need to see him present before I can reasonably judge, would you say?

 

[Stout]

FWIW, this actually happened to me in 7th grade. A teacher asked another kid to slap me in front of the class. That was the teacher's last year in the district. It got him fired.

OK, I'll eat the conspiracy theory idea then. The whole sound just sounded so ludicrous and idea, an idea that would instantly put the teacher under investigation ( if not the unemployment line ) should one of the kids who was asked to administer corporal punishment boast about it.

 

[Kochanski]

I've seen him present unsupported/inaccurate and unreasoned arguments both here and in the video. I think that's a reasonable criterion upon which to judge. How many more arguments do I need to see him present before I can reasonably judge, would you say?

He presented no arguments here at all, he replied with his usual snark. I enjoy his snark, I have a sick and twisted sense of humor, but that is just me.

10 minutes of the beginning of a 90 minute video is not enough of the video to determine whether he has reasoned and supported arguments there.

If you can't get past your difficulty with the way he presents things then you probably won't get anything from the video.

You can either watch the thing and see if he has anything of value to say or not.

Look, part of the problems we all seem to have is in making judgments based on one or two comments people make. We dismiss people quickly and determine that we don't have to bother listening to those individuals again. This can be useful in day to day life when we have lots of draws on our attention and little time to spare, however it means we fail to give people a second chance. It means we put people in little boxes and don't bother to see if maybe they do have valuable things to say. It causes rifts and misunderstandings and narrows our view of the world. It creates cliques and factions. It reinforces our own biases. We are all guilty of this.

I like to come to the JREF to remind myself to listen to others, especially if I don't agree with them, especially if they have a different world view. It doesn't eliminate my biases, but it reminds me that I have them. Sometimes I do learn from these other individuals, even if it is just that they are human like me.

Now, this is all a bit of a derail from Mykeru's video, however we are in a thread about Atheism+/FTB and I would hate to see us go the direction they have.