Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Caustic Logic]

A woman I know through someone else has been active, along with her friends and family, in the opposition in Kiev throughout all this. To have people accusing them (who's major cause is that they want the Ukraine to be a progressive, tolerant nation modeled on Western Europe) of being Nazis is just sickening. They could not be further from that.

Oh, man, that does sound pretty low, once you put it that way. I take back what I said about your friends.

Oh, wait, I didn't say anything about anyone by name, nor about all people in the opposition. I was talking about the enormous mob that rolled over the police in a militant action and seized the capitol. They were a few hundred meters to the east, mainly, of the peaceful protesters in the Maidan. There are some signs they were generally Nazi in character, and somehow it seems hordes of Nazis are all over Kyiv.

Or were your friends involved in that part of things? If so, are they taking questions?

 

[Caustic Logic]

What denial? Posters just recognize, that neo-Nazism is there but not so far of much significance.

Where was it determined, and by what method, just just how significant they have been? You can presume that all you want, as most people are. They decide with no real study or consideration that the percentage of Nazis and related thugs is exactly "not enough to matter or spoil my sticking it to Putin moment." Odd that your study says the same when earlier you acknowledged we don't know the proportion, division of labor, or balance of debt between the different camps here.

It was looking to me like a mob of a few thousand of them pushed their way into control of the capitol. Worse, they didn't just fade away and let themselves be invisible and let the protesters take credit, as I hoped. They try for the latter, but remain in force, in Kiev and elsewhere, and have reportedly done the following so far:

1. Threatening Regions party officials to resign or else
2. Shooting (non-fatally) a Yanukovych official trying to return to Kviv to 'turn himself in,' reconcile, start talk, whatever they termed it. They shot him.
3. Tearing down any symbol of Russia and the USSR they find, and specifically placing Nazi and white power symbols over them
4. Burning the Communist party HQ
5. Firebombing at least one Sybnagogue
6. Arresting a Jewish MP framed with sniper rifle in the trunk (this one I'm doubting, but someone was apparently arrested, a car related, and poosibly a version of allegation #2 - need translation)
7. Making Jews afraid to go in the street or maybe stay in the country (no murders yet I've heard about)
8. Implicitly, just by being them, threatening to push this agenda into the future and across Ukraine and beyond, with the glowing confidence of God's chosen soldiers.

At least some of this seems to be true. How many days has it been since the 36-hour blitzkrieg of death that coincided with this mob's first arrival? That's one hell of a week or less, just on the Nazi front alone and ignoring all the other changes, some of which like freedom finally are awesome. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a free vote that finally excludes Yanukovych as a criminal. That guy is shady, how he just keeps winning elections no matter how many time we help overthrow him. Kinda like Chavez.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I can say one thing about Yanukovych though, he is extremely incompetent. By actively suppressing protestor rights he provoked this revolution. Although I don't support the new government, Yanukovych brought this on himself. If he was smart enough to sit tight and let the protesting peter out he'd still be in power now. Moscow should've backed someone with some more commonsense. I'll give it to anti-Yanukovych folks, the dude was stupid.

Gotta disagree. There were militants, again apparently Nazi ones, moving up the street to take over or get to government buildings. See the map at ACLOS. Moving SE down the red street is where militants were shot. Marked - minister's building. Behind it, where the parliament met. South, presidential admin, SE, Regions party office, which was torched and an IT worker rep. beaten to death. Somehow once these guys got in charge of that area, everything changed and parliament was free to dismiss people, vote new stuff in, etc. That was the revolution.

To prevent that physical takeover, they would have almost had to call in the army, after the police were rolled over, being left too weak to stop that assault. There was just that threat, but the operation was simply too quick.

Protest laws were loose enough these guys were able to bus themselves in and do this. I don't know about other effects of the laws, but I hear there was a large protest and all, with the main problem being snipers picking them off. And there too I'd point out we can't really know who was doing it, but do note it coincided with this confident barrel roll through a vulnerable capitol, and laid down the alleged justification (killing his own people!) at literally the same time, not one before the other.

 

[Caustic Logic]

This is supposed to change my mind:

Ukrainian journalists are going through thousands of papers they say were found near Yanukovich's opulent residence near Kiev after he fled the capital and some documents have already started to surface in the Internet.

Although its authenticity could not be confirmed, parliamentary deputy Hennadi Moskal, a former deputy interior minister, published a document online detailing a plan to surround Independence Square - the cradle of the uprising - with snipers and open fire on the protesters below.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/24/ukraine-crisis-documents-idUSL6N0LT47720140224
Sounds pretty airtight, right? Opulence + villany + illogical self-vilifying sloppiness = a delicious juicy morsel to swallow.

As for the "Jewish PM" with guns in his car - might be Andriy Klyuyev, shot twice Feb. 25. Former chief of staff to Yanukovych and extra-reviled.

NBC
Interfax (adds that his house was attacked)
Wikipedia
(says he was attacked in his car - did they find guns in the trunk and take his car?)

 

[Childlike Empress]

Under the eyes of the armed extremists still controlling the parliament building, a "European Choice" coalition has "elected" neoconcubine Nuland's boy (who in reality is Yulia's boy) to interim head of the government. Crimea will hold a referendum about if they should accept the legitimacy of that government (which means likely not). Janukovic has released a statement saying that he considers himself still legitimate President and the putschist government illegal. He asked Russia to "protect him from extremists" trying to kill him. NATO is "concerned". The EU is whining about this or the other thing.

 

[angrysoba]

They like good relations with Russia in the same way a sheep in a pen wants good relations with a hungry bear stuck in the same pen. Trust no descision made with the treat of death (economic in this case) if you make the 'wrong' one.

I don't think it is the case that the governments of the Central Asian Republics fear Russia. One thing that is important to remember is that the people there tend to have very little choice. The governments of those countries are extremely authoritarian.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Under the eyes of the armed extremists still controlling the parliament building, a "European Choice" coalition has "elected" neoconcubine Nuland's boy (who in reality is Yulia's boy) to interim head of the government. Crimea will hold a referendum about if they should accept the legitimacy of that government (which means likely not). Janukovic has released a statement saying that he considers himself still legitimate President and the putschist government illegal. He asked Russia to "protect him from extremists" trying to kill him. NATO is "concerned". The EU is whining about this or the other thing.

Tring to kill him? But he's to stand trial for logical and easily proven crimes against humanity. He left the very orders behind in his rush to flee! Why would they try to kill him?

Becuase the case isn't so good? Or is it a constitutional issue?

Mr. Tsarev said Mr. Yanukovych would legally remain president until he resigned, “or is killed.” He said there is no constitutional method for impeaching a president, as the opposition-controlled parliament claims to have done, and said the Party of Regions hadn’t yet decided whether to participate in a presidential election the acting government has set for May 25.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...oment-yanukovych-deputy-says/article17065557/

 

[geni]

Under the eyes of the armed extremists still controlling the parliament building, a "European Choice" coalition has "elected" neoconcubine Nuland's boy (who in reality is Yulia's boy) to interim head of the government.

Its ukraine. If you are hoping for left wingers it isn't going to happen :

http://pando.com/2014/02/24/everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-wrong/

Crimea will hold a referendum about if they should accept the legitimacy of that government (which means likely not).

I'm failing to see a problem.

Janukovic has released a statement saying that he considers himself still legitimate President and the putschist government illegal.

Well he would say that wouldn't he.

He asked Russia to "protect him from extremists" trying to kill him. NATO is "concerned". The EU is whining about this or the other thing.

EU isn't really doing much at all. Individual memebers are being more active.

 

[spin0]

I knew it was Zionist Nazis behind all this mess.

Yep, Jewish neo-nazis everywhere in the Maidan (/s) - here's an interview of one: JEWISH UKRAINIAN MAIDAN SELF-DEFENSE LEADER: At the end of the day, living in this country has been worth it – because we’ve lived to see the Maidan.

The interview is from Feb 12.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yep, Jewish neo-nazis everywhere in the Maidan (/s) - here's an interview of one: JEWISH UKRAINIAN MAIDAN SELF-DEFENSE LEADER: At the end of the day, living in this country has been worth it – because we’ve lived to see the Maidan.

The interview is from Feb 12.

Significance? Feb. 21 or after and it might be more relevant.

But this whole thing is coming together. Yanukovych left the orders to kill protesters behind. Everyone saw the sniper fire coming from the windows of Hotel Ukraine. Everyone saw the guys on the Instiutskya getting shot (by different snipers from another direction, see map fore relevance, but oh well). He sent his chief of staff back to Kiev, but they forgot to take the guns back out of the trunk. Or was he prepared for a gun battle? Not very prepared, sounds like.

Anyway, those guys are so busted. It's like finding the dazed communist kid just outside the blazing Reichstag. All the emergency **** is necessary, case closed.

 

[McHrozni]

I don't think it is the case that the governments of the Central Asian Republics fear Russia. One thing that is important to remember is that the people there tend to have very little choice. The governments of those countries are extremely authoritarian.

They would have to be extremely stupid not to fear Russia. Not just fear, I'll grant you that.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

Show me where anyone made this argument? The truth remains that Eastern Ukraine being ethnically Russian/Pro-Russia desires to align itself with Russia. I really don't see this changing unless Ukraine decides to remain neutral. Separatism is already being sparked on the southern portion of the country.

The only region with ethnic Russian majority is Crimea in the South, where in 2001 about 58% of population was ethnically Russian, about 24% Ukrainian, and about 12% Tatar whose share has been rising significantly since then and estimated as about 20%.

For centuries Crimea was inhabited by Tatars and they were the biggest ethnic group but after the ethnic cleansing and Russian colonization by the Soviet Union there were none left. After the fall of the Soviet Union many Tatars have been moving back to their home region. The history of the ethnic makeup:

(table source)

 

[Caustic Logic]

Well he would say that wouldn't he.

Right again, sort of. Whatever people do, they do. But some illegalities are harder to just deny than others. There is a constitution to measure claims against, and a claim that Y remains legally president, as voted for, 'til he resigns or dies. This fits with his twin recent messages that he's president, didn't resign, and fears he'll be killed. Triplet messages.

Untrue or true? The answer shouldn't be tricky. It's written down somewhere, on the 'net even. What to do with the president's web page BTW? 404. They'll come around. Internet is owned in Europe somewhere.

But I suppose if the constitution hasn't been amended yet, they can swing the votes to do it any number of ways. Some fresh "protests" might be needed, but that can be done.

 

[A'isha]

Meanwhile...

Armed men seize Crimea parliament and hoist Russian flag

Armed men have seized the government buildings in the capital of the Ukraine’s Crimea region and hoisted a Russian flag over a barricade.

The men occupying the parliament building in the regional capital, Simferopol, early on Thursday did not come out to voice any demands. They wore black and orange ribbons, a Russian symbol of the victory in World War II. The men also put up a sign saying “Crimea is Russia.”


[...]

Amid mounting tension in the region, Russia ordered 150,000 troops to test their combat readiness on Wednesday in a show of force that prompted a blunt warning from the United States that any military intervention in Ukraine would be a “grave mistake.”

Putin put the military on alert for massive exercises involving most of the military units in western Russia, and announced measures to tighten security at the headquarters of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet on Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula.

The manoeuvres will involve some 150,000 troops, 880 tanks, 90 aircraft and 80 navy ships, and are intended to “check the troops’ readiness for action in crisis situations that threaten the nation’s military security,” defence minister Sergei Shoigu said in remarks carried by Russian news agencies.

 

[crescent]

Seems like well armed and well trained men have stormed government buildings in Crimea. Looks like southern and eastern Ukraine are headed elsewhere as previously mentioned.

ETA: I just want to point out that citizens in East Ukraine are doing EXACTLY what citizens were doing in West Ukraine. Let's see how many people support this or hypocritically disapprove.

You mean that the people in Crimea has peacefully protested for weeks, then had a number of their own killed before resorting to violence? Do you mean that the people in Crimea are going up against a police force that is much better armed than they are?

The protesters in the Maidan were not exactly "well armed and well trained". I am thinking you are making a false equivalency.


ETA: I mean, seriously, this is from the article you linked to:

Maxim, a pro-Russian activist who refused to give his last name, said he and other activists who had camped out overnight outside the local parliament in Simferopol when heavily armed men wearing flak jackets and carrying rocket-propelled grenade launchers and sniper rifles took over the building.

"Our activists were sitting there all night calmly, building the barricades," he said. "At 5 o'clock unknown men turned up and went to the building. They got into the courtyard and put everyone on the ground.

"They were asking who we were. When we said we stand for the Russian language and Russia, they said: don't be afraid, we're with you. Then they began to storm the building bringing down the doors," he said.

"They didn't look like volunteers or amateurs, they were professionals. This was clearly a well-organized operation. They did not allow anyone to come near. They seized the building, drove out the police, there were about six police officers inside," he said.

"Who are they? Nobody knows. It's about 50-60 people, fully armed," he said.

RPGs? I am pretty sure these guys are about as unlike the Maidan protesters as possible.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Tweet from Alex Thomson, WTF is with this guy? I love him. Faved and re-tweeted.

NATO boss expresses "concern" over Russian military exercises. Crimean Russians concerned at their govt overthrown by force.

 

[Caustic Logic]

You mean that the people in Crimea has peacefully protested for weeks, then had a number of their own killed before resorting to violence? Do you mean that the people in Crimea are going up against a police force that is much better armed than they are?

The protesters in the Maidan were not exactly "well armed and well trained". I am thinking you are making a false equivalency.


ETA: I mean, seriously, this is from the article you linked to:



RPGs? I am pretty sure these guys are about as unlike the Maidan protesters as possible.

Perhaps a bit of an extremist reaction to, and overly-visible rejection of the putsch? "Two can play this game," allowing some time to reflect, and a sane middle emerge, etc. Seems fair game if they're just taking over from the government and not killing people or anything. Why should only one group of Ukrainians get to overhtrow the government by force?

ETA: Sorry, I see you still appareny don't know about that, comparing this Russo-phile takeover by force with "The protesters in the Maidan were not exactly "well armed and well trained"" Apples and oranges, when the oranges were just around the corner. No RPGs I saw, and none fired in the other case, that anyone said. They prob'ly overdid it, the local cops half understood, and just left. The Russian flag - should come back down. Be Ukrainian, people, or do things like that and help write the other side's script!

Hm, fresh thought there, no surprise, but I'll leave it be. Sorry, I'm done for some hours now.

 

[NoahFence]

If Crimera wants to be ruled by a dictator in the making (Putin) what's the negative impact for Ukraine? Is the fear that the shirtless wonder won't stop there?

 

[geni]

Untrue or true? The answer shouldn't be tricky. It's written down somewhere, on the 'net even.

Yes. In Ukrainian. Constitutions say what courts say they say and Ukraine's courts have been on sale to the highest bidder for some time. Trying to insist on strict legality at this point is just going to result in a bunch of arrests of rather rich people and further instability.

 

[geni]

If Crimera wants to be ruled by a dictator in the making (Putin) what's the negative impact for Ukraine? Is the fear that the shirtless wonder won't stop there?

Countries generally don't like losing territory and they lose Sevastopol as a bargaining chip. Wouldn't be great news for russia either.