Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[katy_did]

I think you're safe when it comes to sounding like us. Americans don't say "a bit worrying" . . . it just comes out all wrong when you add the twang.

Ha, good point.

(That kind of makes it worse, though. If I say "It's a bit worrying I can't find my cell phone", for example, that sounds even more wrong).

 

[Dan O.]

I don't think we should take it for granted that Rudy was on the toilet when Meredith came in. He had already wiped. If he got up in a hurry, he wouldn't have wiped.

If Rudy had got up in a hurry such as having just heard a terrible scream and needing to rush to save the girl, he wouldn't have wiped. But if he is surprised by someone unexpectedly entering the front door, his first instinct might be to flee but he is trapped in the bathroom. There are two doors between him and Meredith so there is no immediate concern for being discovered as long as he remains quiet. He can finish wiping if he hadn't done that already, pull his pants up, gather his things and try to sneak out the front door when Meredith is in her room.

If only that door had been installed according to common safety practices, Meredith might still be alive today.

 

[Bill Williams]

I've seen either you or somebody else get the day of the week wrong before, and again here. The murder happened on Thursday evening, and the next day was Friday. Unless the Italians are still using the Julian calendar, but that would move a day in the wrong direction. I don't understand why nobody seemed to have any classes or work on Nov 2. Was that a holiday as well?

Bill don't you have it from a source that they have a satanic calendar used in Nov. that adds a Nov. 0 bringing what most of the world calls Thursday to Friday? It's like the car park video but instead of ten minutes it's one day fast. Or was that slow...

For the record, the Julian calendar had the horrible evening as 19 Oct 2007 O.S. (Old Style) still Thursday.

The "Satanic" reference comes from the Christian calendar, where Nov 1 is All Saints Day, making Oct 31 All Hallows Eve, or Hallowe'en.

The Micheli quote comes from Amanda's lawyer. Someone else might have a link.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

I don 't believe that for a second. He inflicted a huge, savage gash in her throat, which would have taken a lot of force to execute. It's not as though the knife slipped.

There is no evidence he applied the towels to her wounds, and there would be evidence had he done so. The photos show he used towels to mop up the floor. I can only guess he did this so he could rape her without getting too much blood on himself.

What makes you think he was hoping the wound he inflicted was not fatal, or that he could have had any doubt it was fatal?

To me, everything about this crime scene screams out that it was the work of someone who utterly lacks compassion or moral inhibition. Everything about Guede's behavior since his arrest tells me he is a scheming, self-serving liar without a hint of conscience, who would be happy to have Amanda/Raffaele spend their lives in prison because of his crime.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

BBC3 versus reality

To me, everything about this crime scene screams out that it was the work of someone who utterly lacks compassion or moral inhibition. Everything about Guede's behavior since his arrest tells me he is a scheming, self-serving liar without a hint of conscience, who would be happy to have Amanda/Raffaele spend their lives in prison because of his crime.

And this is the man whom the BBC3 documentary paints in a relatively favorable light. It boggles the mind.

 

[RWVBWL]

What about the other probable semen stain?

I wish I could get a transcript of Vinci's presentation but this graphic is just terrific.

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SP32-999.jpg

Wow. So that's why Vinci was in town. Cool.

Hi Girlz!
Thanks for the link, glad I checked it.
Question though regarding EVIDENCE 7: Sperm on Meredith's pillow?

When you zoom in,
the photo's only point out the 2 stains near the pillows edge,
found between Meredith naked legs and her genitalia.

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SP32-999.jpg

But there is no mention in Dr. Vinci's chart of that other possible semen stain, found by use of the Crimescope in the middle of the pillow with Rudy Guede's shoe leaving an imprint, which, as Frank Sfarzo 1st wrote of, Supernaut and RandyN point out, dates this stain from when Meredith was killed.

I posted the photo's here before,
today I'll just link my old post,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9812157&postcount=6375
maybe some of the newer members might wanna have a look.

I wonder why Dr. Vinci does not make mention of this other stain?
Thoughts?

 

[sunmaster14]

I just don't want you to get the wrong impression of Judge Claudio Massei. He is not benevolent.

I understand. And I thought the justice system here (in the US) was screwed up. I've always felt that the US system was good in theory, but bad in practice. I think from what I've learned of the Italian system, it's bad in theory and even worse in practice.

The US system is built around the idea that in criminal prosecutions, the state has an unfair advantage because of the disproportionate power and resources it can bring to the battle (both inside and outside of the courtroom). This advantage is balanced by the various protections for the defendant, one of the most important of which is a virtually unlimited right to timely discovery. The requirement of a unanimous jury verdict is pretty important too. It's scary to think these things don't exist in Italy.

I read that Mignini was dumbfounded that Raffaele, in solitary confinement for 6 months, did not cave and agree to say anything Mignini wanted him to say against "that cow" Amanda. Some Italians (Raffaele) really know honor.

I agree. Raffaele's ability to withstand the pressure has been nothing short of inspiring.

 

[RWVBWL]

Covered while alive?

2) Is there evidence (or do reasonable people here believe) that Rudy actually tried to stanch Meredith's bleeding with towels in a vain attempt to mitigate the damage he had done? I suppose another way of asking the question is "Did Rudy intend to kill Meredith?"

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

Well,
when I look at the photographs below from a previous post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9826442&postcount=8085

which show Miss Kercher's dead, naked body lying on her bedroom floor, with a very bloody towel near her neck,
I just realized that after he raped her, Rudy covered her up, while alive, to die a horrible death suffocating on her own blood, as he used that white, barely bloody towel on her bed to clean himself up/or dry his wet trousers before he left.

Poor Rudy, ****^^^ scumbag!


PS - For all you PG Peoples,
here's Rudy in happier times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqI5_hOrUFA

 

[sunmaster14]

For the record, the Julian calendar had the horrible evening as 19 Oct 2007 O.S. (Old Style) still Thursday.

Well, I was assuming that the murder would have been on 1 Nov 2007 O.S., which would have been a Wednesday.

I still don't understand why nobody had any work or classes to go to on Friday, Nov 2, 2007.

 

[kwill]

Well, I was assuming that the murder would have been on 1 Nov 2007 O.S., which would have been a Wednesday.

I still don't understand why nobody had any work or classes to go to on Friday, Nov 2, 2007.

Because Nov 1 is All Saints Day, a big holiday in Italy, celebrated by almost everybody. They spend it with family, usually visiting their relatives' graves. That year it fell on a Thursday, so most people stretched it into a four-day weekend.

 

[Strozzi]

I've seen either you or somebody else get the day of the week wrong before, and again here. The murder happened on Thursday evening, and the next day was Friday. Unless the Italians are still using the Julian calendar, but that would move a day in the wrong direction. I don't understand why nobody seemed to have any classes or work on Nov 2. Was that a holiday as well?

You are right. The murder occurred the evening of Nov 1 which was a Thursday. Thank you for correcting me. That day, Nov 1, was All Saints Day, a holiday in Italy. It collectively celebrates all the Catholic saints. Because it was a somber religious holiday, the large discos were closed that night. No disco buses were running from the square where Curatolo erroneously claims he saw the two defendants while students in masks and costumes were boarding the buses for the discos. (Commodi was overheard in court angry that someone failed to prepare Cutatolo properly when he mistakenly included Halloween in his fantasy testimony.)

The next day, Friday, Nov 2, was All Souls Day. (Meredith still had class). Families gather together to remember their departed loved ones and ancestors. As I recall, many people made a long holiday weekend out of the 4 days.

While at the pizza dinner with her British friends on the evenng of Nov 1, Meredith borrowed a school book from one of them and was supposed to return it by class time the next morning, Friday Nov 2. Her friend was without it in class and was anxiously looking for Meredith and her book.

 

[Poppy1016]

I believe that as well, (about not being there when Meredith was killed), but he knows exactly what happened that night.

And you know this based on what evidence exactly?

 

[Strozzi]

I just realized that after he raped her, Rudy covered her up, while alive, to die a horrible death suffocating on her own blood, as he used that white, barely bloody towel on her bed to clean himself up/or dry his wet trousers before he left.

Poor Rudy, ****^^^ scumbag!


PS - For all you PG Peoples,
here's Rudy in happier times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqI5_hOrUFA

He looks fine to me. Now if he had pale blue eyes, I'd think he was a murderer.
Machiavelli, on the basis of Rudy's appearance in this video, do you still believe this is the same man Amanda meant when she wrote a comment about the "most beautiful black man she ever met"?

Here is one of your earlier posts, Machiaveilli:

Originally Posted by Machiavelli
What I found most disturbing in Knox's comment about the "most beautiful black man she ever met", is not his looking but the fact that she never revealed his name. Not even in her book.
Though, she knew for sure because this was a person to whom she promied they would meet again after her return from Germany.
I find it disturbing because you may count black men attending bars in Via Garibaldi just like you know your neighbours. Can you imagine how small the place is? How little the bars? Who is this unknown second black man? It should be extremly easy to identify him and find him if we just had his name.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I am not an expert on holidays

Well, I was assuming that the murder would have been on 1 Nov 2007 O.S., which would have been a Wednesday.

I still don't understand why nobody had any work or classes to go to on Friday, Nov 2, 2007.

sunmaster14,

All Souls' Day is 2 November (not to be confused with All Saints' Day). I am not sure that it is always a vacation holiday, but IIUC when All Saints' Day falls on a Thursday, it is typical for Italian students to have a vacation break on the long weekend to visit their families. I could be wrong.

 

[RandyN]

I don 't believe that for a second. He inflicted a huge, savage gash in her throat, which would have taken a lot of force to execute. It's not as though the knife slipped.

There is no evidence he applied the towels to her wounds, and there would be evidence had he done so. The photos show he used towels to mop up the floor. I can only guess he did this so he could rape her without getting too much blood on himself.

What makes you think he was hoping the wound he inflicted was not fatal, or that he could have had any doubt it was fatal?

To me, everything about this crime scene screams out that it was the work of someone who utterly lacks compassion or moral inhibition. Everything about Guede's behavior since his arrest tells me he is a scheming, self-serving liar without a hint of conscience, who would be happy to have Amanda/Raffaele spend their lives in prison because of his crime.

Agree! He may not have entered the cottage intending to kill but once he brought his knife out... but more so after the fatal wound which required extreme force he did nothing to try and save MK...in fact evidence indicates he undressed her as she was gasping for breath and so the towels to keep himself from the blood is exactly what happened...the facts show that.

As for wondering if she would die. There would be no doubt in his mind that this wound was indeed fatal. This was a violent messy and noisy death...gasps and vomiting and choking on blood. It is why I think he may have retreated downstairs a bit to escape the reality of what was happening for a time and to listen and be assured that she died and then he returns to finish sexually assaulting and robbing her. He is an unconscionable liar.

In fact this case has quite a few of those liars. I consider what Lumumba is doing to be far across the line. His interview on Ch 3 thing and calling up the race card for sympathy puts him in this category. Lie about and for revenge but more for compensation. Stefanoni lied. Mignini lied. Napolini lied. Fiquera lied. Giobbi is either stupid or else he lied. Donanno lied. Toto lied. Quintinvale lied. The phone police man lied. Comodi lied. Biondo lied. In Italy it is the national past time...the perfection of the lie. Except that they suck at it and are so transparent but like little children they think they are getting away with it.

They are not!

Yes Grinder anyone speaking for the defendants in this case needs to commit to memory your explanation about the judicial system of Italy. Maybe add the worst record in the West for human rights violations by it courts...

This lawyer had Moore up against the ropes and the bell rang. Steve did not get a chance to recover and come back for another round. Fight was already over.

They are playing dirty pool. Italy has the potential to lose much and they will say and do anything so that does not happen. Not something correct and honest but something that creates the image that they are correct...or should be assumed to be correct. Anything but the truth. The truth is a huge problem for them.

This is why I think the politicians have remained silent. No one is out trying to make hay off of this...the downside is not worth the potential upside. So they sit and watch what the world is mumbling about. Maybe nothing it appears...but then again bang...Ferdinand is dead and the world is at war. Best to be on the proper side in case that happens.

And no I don't think the world will go to war over AK and RS wrongful conviction. But the fall out could be huge... end up costing Italy billions in lost business and a worse reputation than they already have. Who will join Italy in a business partnership? They already have a bad reputation and having the most lawyers per capita of anywhere bolsters the truth that this is a litigious society.

Now we see it is a rigged litigious society. Soon the tigers will be trying to shave off the stripes only to learn that the stripes are on the skin as well. How does a country slip so far off course? Brought down by a tiny girl with blue eyes. Archduke Knox I presume. Persecuted as a cartwheeling witch. Ends up saving Italian society from destroying itself.

Probably a book in there somewhere. Go away Preston unless you wish to co-author. I'm looking for better paying work.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>While at the pizza dinner with her British friends on the evenng of Nov 1, Meredith borrowed a school book from one of them and was supposed to return it by class time the next morning, Friday Nov 2. Her friend was without it in class and was anxiously looking for Meredith and her book.

School was closed that day.

 

[Mary_H]

If she had lived though, he would have gone up for rape still and assault with deadly. Might also get attempted murder. Alive she seems more a danger to him than dead.

You're imagining that he was thinking rationally, including planning/fearing for the future. If he were really thinking/planning, he actually would have tried to clean up the crime scene, and stolen more stuff instead of just bolting. I think he was in enough denial to think he would get away with it (and he actually did, for quite a while).

 

[Strozzi]

Agree! He may not have entered the cottage intending to kill but once he brought his knife out... but more so after the fatal wound which required extreme force he did nothing to try and save MK...in fact evidence indicates he undressed her as she was gasping for breath and so the towels to keep himself from the blood is exactly what happened...the facts show that.

As for wondering if she would die. There would be no doubt in his mind that this wound was indeed fatal. This was a violent messy and noisy death...gasps and vomiting and choking on blood. It is why I think he may have retreated downstairs a bit to escape the reality of what was happening for a time and to listen and be assured that she died and then he returns to finish sexually assaulting and robbing her. He is an unconscionable liar.

In fact this case has quite a few of those liars. I consider what Lumumba is doing to be far across the line. His interview on Ch 3 thing and calling up the race card for sympathy puts him in this category. Lie about and for revenge but more for compensation. Stefanoni lied. Mignini lied. Napolini lied. Fiquera lied. Giobbi is either stupid or else he lied. Donanno lied. Toto lied. Quintinvale lied. The phone police man lied. Comodi lied. Biondo lied. In Italy it is the national past time...the perfection of the lie. Except that they suck at it and are so transparent but like little children they think they are getting away with it.

They are not!

Yes Grinder anyone speaking for the defendants in this case needs to commit to memory your explanation about the judicial system of Italy. Maybe add the worst record in the West for human rights violations by it courts...

This lawyer had Moore up against the ropes and the bell rang. Steve did not get a chance to recover and come back for another round. Fight was already over.

They are playing dirty pool. Italy has the potential to lose much and they will say and do anything so that does not happen. Not something correct and honest but something that creates the image that they are correct...or should be assumed to be correct. Anything but the truth. The truth is a huge problem for them.

This is why I think the politicians have remained silent. No one is out trying to make hay off of this...the downside is not worth the potential upside. So they sit and watch what the world is mumbling about. Maybe nothing it appears...but then again bang...Ferdinand is dead and the world is at war. Best to be on the proper side in case that happens.

And no I don't think the world will go to war over AK and RS wrongful conviction. But the fall out could be huge... end up costing Italy billions in lost business and a worse reputation than they already have. Who will join Italy in a business partnership? They already have a bad reputation and having the most lawyers per capita of anywhere bolsters the truth that this is a litigious society.

Now we see it is a rigged litigious society. Soon the tigers will be trying to shave off the stripes only to learn that the stripes are on the skin as well. How does a country slip so far off course? Brought down by a tiny girl with blue eyes. Archduke Knox I presume. Persecuted as a cartwheeling witch. Ends up saving Italian society from destroying itself.

Probably a book in there somewhere. Go away Preston unless you wish to co-author. I'm looking for better paying work.

RandyN, I believe a blockbuster movie showing the truth from the defendants' view is the most effective tool. Just think of the chilling interrogation scenes, with Mignini and Giobbi in the control room listening live to the interrogation - you know, the interrogation that was not recorded. Translate it into multiple languages. If it is done well, 150 million educated people will see it.

Think of the scene that took place in the street outside Hellman's court when he acquitted the defendants. The men in the crowd shouting "Vergogna" (shame) for not convicting them. Show that true news footage - then zoom in on the faces and match them to snapshots of actual Perugia police officers.

 

[kwill]

You are right. The murder occurred the evening of Nov 1 which was a Thursday. Thank you for correcting me. That day, Nov 1, was All Saints Day, a holiday in Italy. It collectively celebrates all the Catholic saints. Because it was a somber religious holiday, the large discos were closed that night. No disco buses were running from the square where Curatolo erroneously claims he saw the two defendants while students in masks and costumes were boarding the buses for the discos. (Commodi was overheard in court angry that someone failed to prepare Cutatolo properly when he mistakenly included Halloween in his fantasy testimony.)

The next day, Friday, Nov 2, was All Souls Day. (Meredith still had class). Families gather together to remember their departed loved ones and ancestors. As I recall, many people made a long holiday weekend out of the 4 days.

While at the pizza dinner with her British friends on the evenng of Nov 1, Meredith borrowed a school book from one of them and was supposed to return it by class time the next morning, Friday Nov 2. Her friend was without it in class and was anxiously looking for Meredith and her book.

Strozzi, it's not an important detail, but I don't think that's right. The English women thought there was school Friday, but like everything else it was closed. Amanda must have known because she was hanging out with Raffaele.

I wish to God they'd gone to Gubbio that morning.

Fascinating place . . . scientists think it's where the meteor that spelled doom for the dinosaurs landed. Would have been a fun little day trip for them, and they'd never have been targeted in this insane case.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>I watched a debate between a lawyer and Steve Moore just after the guilty verdict...the lawyer stymied Moore with that simple idea. Mr Moore do you contend that they all got it wrong? In 5 trials and 100 judges and jurors and they all got together to falsely accuse Knox? That is what you are saying here?

And I tell you I felt sorry for Steve because that explanation is difficult and long. And the moderator had a time issue apparently and so Steve never got a chance to adequately refute this lawyers rather easily made contention even thought he tried his best. And it was powerful and made Knox look bad...and I know the facts about these trials and judges and it was still painful to watch. A person uninformed of the facts would have an easy conclusion if just going on that premise. Sure they cant all be wrong and out to get the girl. That idea is ridiculous right? Trust me it is powerful and it will return and someone better be working on that answer and proving the points if an extradition hearing is necessary because any prosecution side lawyer can rattle that off in 10 seconds...hell I could do it.

It instantly puts you on the defense and you must now overcome the CT mask you will be trying to keep off your face...and its hard and good luck because who could ever imagine such mass incompetence, or cronyism, or whatever the hell they call it in Italy...I call it mafia like.

Its powerful because it has the numbers...no facts necessary. They cant all be in on it right....and yet that is exactly what they are! All in on it...except for that one Hellmann court... thank goodness for that one saving grace of almost honesty..if he were completely honest he would not have tried to save Italy millions with the Calunia thing.

Maybe they have this all figured out and we just don't know. I hope so. I don't think so...but I hope I'm wrong.

They shouldn't put Steve Moore up against lawyers. He's not a lawyer, so he can't expect or be expected to answer questions in a lawyerly way.

He and other spokespeople should be ready with the many examples of similar conspiracy-like prosecutions that Charlie and Chris and others have provided. A few good examples of how Italian laws still bow to the authority of the magistracy would be illustrative, too.

People really need to be made aware of how similar Italy's judiciary is to those of repressive nations with whom we don't have treaties.