Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

<snip>Knox is an idiot if she isn't reading here or IIP or any PGP site for that matter. For us it is a hobby mostly. But it is her life! And frankly both her and RS seems the least informed while also the most vocal.

AK stupid lawyer Gerghaoil or whatever, was too stupid to talk to the BBC Ch 4 radio reporter! How can he remain such an idiot? Del ole Doppa refuses to comment on Necenni blabbing in the courtroom hallways. These people are harming AK case...but why do anything different than they have since day one???

Sorry but if the girl is too stupid and or busy to become an expert on her own case...maybe the Italians will just come and get her. And never forget that this is a simple yet ludicrously prosecuted case. <snip>

I continue to cling to the foolish notion that this is the prosecutors' case, not Amanda's and Raffaele's, and I wish that Amanda and Raffaele would concur. I have dealt with the kind of people we are dealing with before. They are energized by conflict. They thrive on adversarial relationships. Even when you think -- even when you know -- you have truth and justice on your side, they always find a way to defeat you. They are too small and weak inside to allow it to be otherwise.

I would never criticize Amanda and Raffaele, because they are nothing but victims who are only doing the best they can, but frankly, the guilters have gained strength from being allowed to engage with them. The more energy expended by Amanda and Raffaele in answering questions and giving interviews, the more power the guilters seem to absorb. Even a crumb of attention validates them.

In my experience, which admittedly is not Amanda and Raffaele's experience, one needs to stop attending to one's aggressors. Somebody put a picture on Facebook the other day with a caption something like, "If you are attacked by a shark do you take care of your wounds or do you try to understand the shark?" The question is, do Amanda and Raffaele want their lives to be about their own interests and relationships, or do they want them to be about soulless sharks?

And in my opinion, Amanda should stay off all internet discussions about herself and her case because there are savages out there.

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[Mary_H]

No we did not. They were tried by a U.S. military court and, I believe, acquitted.

These "status of forces" agreements are fairly standard.

One of the main reasons we left no significant force in Iraq or Afghanistan is that these governments will not grant such immunity. And we will not certainly leave troops in Iraq or Afghanistan where they are subject to arrest and trial by the local government.

Ironically, both Iraq and Afghanistan need and want a stronger U.S. presence. But the necessary immunity is very unpopular with the people.

According to Wikipedia:

Cavalese cable car disaster (1998)
Second trial and re-examination

The two men were court-martialed a second time for obstruction of justice and conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, because they had destroyed a videotape[6] recorded from the plane on the day of the accident. The existence and destruction of this videotape only came to the attention of military investigators in August 1998, once Capt Chandler P. Seagraves received testimonial immunity and elected to disclose "the truth about everything."[7] They were found guilty in May 1999; both were dismissed from the service and the pilot received a six-month prison term. He was released after four and a half months for good behavior. Schweitzer made a plea agreement that came to full light after the military jury deliberated upon sentencing. His agreement prevented him from serving any prison time, but it did not prevent him from receiving a dismissal.[8]

In their appeal, Ashby and Schweitzer asked for a re-examination of their trial and for clemency, challenging their dismissals in order to be eligible for military benefits. They claimed that during the first trial the prosecutor and the defense secretly agreed to drop the involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide charges, but to keep the obstruction of justice charge, in order to satisfy the requests coming from Italy. The appeal of Schweitzer was denied in November 2007.[9]

Decisions from the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces were made available in August 2009.[10][11]

 

[Caper]

Man... Just went back to the old threads... the early days. What ever happened to Fiona?

 

[GWCarver]

And in my opinion, Amanda should stay off all internet discussions about herself and her case because there are savages out there.

This is so true, Mary. I spent years discussing the JonBenet Ramsey case on the internet, and I can say from personal experience there are guilters out there who will try to find out where you live and work to do you harm. This would be even more true for a person like Amanda Knox, for whom they have developed such an intense hatred. "Savages" is as good a word as any to describe them.

 

[Desert Fox]

This is so true, Mary. I spent years discussing the JonBenet Ramsey case on the internet, and I can say from personal experience there are guilters out there who will try to find out where you live and work to do you harm. This would be even more true for a person like Amanda Knox, for whom they have developed such an intense hatred. "Savages" is as good a word as any to describe them.

I wonder for how many though it is not really a hatred for Amanda Knox but a hatred for Americans in general. She just is the unfortunate target for that anger and hatred.

 

[Planigale]

According to Wikipedia:

I do think that if I was Italian I would think that the US airmen got away with it. I wonder what would happen in a comparable instance; say an Italian decided to drive a high powered sports car down a pedestrian precinct mowed down and killed several US citizens, managed to slip away to Italy and got prosecuted for obstruction, which then meant he could not be extradited as this would be double jeopardy. Not to introduce how severely one should be punished for killing a plane load of Iranians. The similarity in both cases is that they were where they weren't supposed to be and if they had obeyed orders no one would have died.

 

[Desert Fox]

I do think that if I was Italian I would think that the US airmen got away with it. I wonder what would happen in a comparable instance; say an Italian decided to drive a high powered sports car down a pedestrian precinct mowed down and killed several US citizens, managed to slip away to Italy and got prosecuted for obstruction, which then meant he could not be extradited as this would be double jeopardy. Not to introduce how severely one should be punished for killing a plane load of Iranians. The similarity in both cases is that they were where they weren't supposed to be and if they had obeyed orders no one would have died.

How would an Italian pilot in the same situation or a US pilot that this occurs in the US be treated. That would be the best way to look at the issue,

 

[Planigale]

How would an Italian pilot in the same situation or a US pilot that this occurs in the US be treated. That would be the best way to look at the issue,

I agree, I am not arguing that the outcome was improper. But I can see it would feel unfair. People tend to compare with things they are familiar with driving a fast car vs a fast jet. There can be several 'truths' an emotional truth - which is what the PGP party seem to represent, a legal truth -which is what the courts represent, and a scientific truth - which is what people here strive to represent.

 

[Desert Fox]

I agree, I am not arguing that the outcome was improper. But I can see it would feel unfair. People tend to compare with things they are familiar with driving a fast car vs a fast jet. There can be several 'truths' an emotional truth - which is what the PGP party seem to represent, a legal truth -which is what the courts represent, and a scientific truth - which is what people here strive to represent.

There may be a lot of justified anger in the cable car case. . . .I would be pretty angry as well.

The problem is that the Italian court system does seem nuts at times. If you look at the previous page and when I mention the case of US Army Specialist Mario Lozano, he was just doing his duty yet they tried to extradite and prosecute him.

Big thing is that Amanda is not guilty and should not pay for Italian anger over other incidents.

 

[NancyS]

Well I heard they were all crossing their fingers really really hard! So there was disappointment.

Or maybe how about the defense still sucks.

And once more I don't mind being the lone holdout that this type of country wide judicial, scientific, police, Supreme Court error can be related to any case anywhere else in the world...perhaps N Korea. Added to a record of violations that places Italy in the top two tracked...a close second worst to Turkey???

Here we have Italians lining up to stone the witch. Come on...these guys are just a "little extra bad" Charlie and company. Consider the long line of judges and jurors who has looked at this case. If this is something just off with a few bad apples say...Mignini and Napolini for example then don't ya think one of these 896 judges, scientists, jurors, or police would have spoke up by now?

Meanwhile you can count on two hands quite easily those Italians having trouble convicting in this case.

Nuts that the Italians might be unfairly singled out. They are doing it to themselves and their violations are recorded by the ECOHR and they prove that conclusively! This is not a Nyfong ...sorry not even close. Not the same.

The list of things AK is busy with just may get her ass landed back in a jail cell. There is a time for family, boyfriend, and school. This IS NOT that time. She better start listening to someone who understands the issues she should understand about this case. And sure forget the PGP but honestly they have a rather small platform of issues anyway so why not cut them all down? Charlie, if you cant think of these then we know several who can do so.

Knox should have an answer about any banking questions. It is a simply matter that PGP have been making hay with almost since day one. Did she make a curious deposit or not? This is so simple. So easy. But remaining quiet or saying " I don't know" at this point is foolish! You know the answer and you have the records.

I recall this matter being a topic off and on for years. IIRC they blame you for releasing and then removing or editing or saying and changing some damn thing about this deposit or money issue. SO...answer it! Or remain silent and feed the doubt so that it remains a question for everyone still in 2014.

Knox is an idiot if she isn't reading here or IIP or any PGP site for that matter. For us it is a hobby mostly. But it is her life! And frankly both her and RS seems the least informed while also the most vocal.

AK stupid lawyer Gerghaoil or whatever, was too stupid to talk to the BBC Ch 4 radio reporter! How can he remain such an idiot? Del ole Doppa refuses to comment on Necenni blabbing in the courtroom hallways. These people are harming AK case...but why do anything different than they have since day one???

Sorry but if the girl is too stupid and or busy to become an expert on her own case...maybe the Italians will just come and get her. And never forget that this is a simple yet ludicrously prosecuted case.

Was there a deposit that has been unexplained? No? It is one plank in the weak PGP platform. Chip it up. The lamp? Perhaps she should read Anglos article? Whatever...she should be able to rattle off the rebuttal without thought. I bet DanO could. And probably 4 or 5 others here or use to be here could as well.

Someone should be looking ahead (not all that difficult in this case) and preparing for action...you know...smart lawyer type people informing themselves from and by the experts on the case details... OR perhaps it is best for Knox to sit up in a tree on the U DUB campus reading a book. What do you think?

The time for huh, what, I don't know, is long past. In fact it is inexcusably stupid. Meanwhile I bet the US has her at 50/50 and no better right now in 2014. Not all that good given the ridiculous case, corruption, and facts!

But sure...philosophy class is critical right now or her social life perhaps... better suck it in cuz she might just lose that freedom and so need the memory of it to sustain her in prison.

Me... Id be studying extradition and DNA and human rights violations...but what do I know? Nothing!

I agree, they really need to get themselves together as it is their lives at stake. They don't seem to be getting any decent advice - and they should have ensured that every point in their books was compatible with each other and accurate with the known records, otherwise it is just sloppy work.

They need to become experts in their own case - and sack the lawyers that won't talk to the BBC. This case has been so played out in the media, the lawyers involved should have a ready made speech to highlight the main points that prove their innocence - in the same way that the prosecution are always ready to give their nonsense guilty points.

It seems on here at least, time of death plays a big part in why people believe they are innocent. Can't Amanda and Raffale get some expert opinion from a gastroenterologist and start hammering this point home?

They really do need to become experts - they are both in a position where they can talk to any media outlet, they need to be able to stress the main points of their innocence - and start making a lot of noise about not testing the semen stain and the lack of electronic data files and that the pathologist did NOT say that there had to be more than one attacker. They need to be able to quote the experts.

 

[Desert Fox]

If there stories exactly matched, then they would be attacked for that as well.
Sorry but there is no way that they can win in that regard.

I think you have an unreal expectation for humans to be honest.
I think many here don't have really great connects to skeptics generally and don't really understand the human mind.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well I heard they were all crossing their fingers really really hard! So there was disappointment.

Or maybe how about the defense still sucks.

And once more I don't mind being the lone holdout that this type of country wide judicial, scientific, police, Supreme Court error can be related to any case anywhere else in the world...perhaps N Korea. Added to a record of violations that places Italy in the top two tracked...a close second worst to Turkey???

Here we have Italians lining up to stone the witch. Come on...these guys are just a "little extra bad" Charlie and company. Consider the long line of judges and jurors who has looked at this case. If this is something just off with a few bad apples say...Mignini and Napolini for example then don't ya think one of these 896 judges, scientists, jurors, or police would have spoke up by now?

Meanwhile you can count on two hands quite easily those Italians having trouble convicting in this case.

Nuts that the Italians might be unfairly singled out. They are doing it to themselves and their violations are recorded by the ECOHR and they prove that conclusively! This is not a Nyfong ...sorry not even close. Not the same.

The list of things AK is busy with just may get her ass landed back in a jail cell. There is a time for family, boyfriend, and school. This IS NOT that time. She better start listening to someone who understands the issues she should understand about this case. And sure forget the PGP but honestly they have a rather small platform of issues anyway so why not cut them all down? Charlie, if you cant think of these then we know several who can do so.

Knox should have an answer about any banking questions. It is a simply matter that PGP have been making hay with almost since day one. Did she make a curious deposit or not? This is so simple. So easy. But remaining quiet or saying " I don't know" at this point is foolish! You know the answer and you have the records.

I recall this matter being a topic off and on for years. IIRC they blame you for releasing and then removing or editing or saying and changing some damn thing about this deposit or money issue. SO...answer it! Or remain silent and feed the doubt so that it remains a question for everyone still in 2014.

Knox is an idiot if she isn't reading here or IIP or any PGP site for that matter. For us it is a hobby mostly. But it is her life! And frankly both her and RS seems the least informed while also the most vocal.

AK stupid lawyer Gerghaoil or whatever, was too stupid to talk to the BBC Ch 4 radio reporter! How can he remain such an idiot? Del ole Doppa refuses to comment on Necenni blabbing in the courtroom hallways. These people are harming AK case...but why do anything different than they have since day one???

Sorry but if the girl is too stupid and or busy to become an expert on her own case...maybe the Italians will just come and get her. And never forget that this is a simple yet ludicrously prosecuted case.

Was there a deposit that has been unexplained? No? It is one plank in the weak PGP platform. Chip it up. The lamp? Perhaps she should read Anglos article? Whatever...she should be able to rattle off the rebuttal without thought. I bet DanO could. And probably 4 or 5 others here or use to be here could as well.

Someone should be looking ahead (not all that difficult in this case) and preparing for action...you know...smart lawyer type people informing themselves from and by the experts on the case details... OR perhaps it is best for Knox to sit up in a tree on the U DUB campus reading a book. What do you think?

The time for huh, what, I don't know, is long past. In fact it is inexcusably stupid. Meanwhile I bet the US has her at 50/50 and no better right now in 2014. Not all that good given the ridiculous case, corruption, and facts!

But sure...philosophy class is critical right now or her social life perhaps... better suck it in cuz she might just lose that freedom and so need the memory of it to sustain her in prison.

Me... Id be studying extradition and DNA and human rights violations...but what do I know? Nothing!

I kind of agree with the tenor of this post. A moment's reading yesterday and an explanatory post by Charlie left me with the jaw-dropping realisation that she has not got the time line for the morning of the 2nd straight. She thinks she called her mother at noon rather than 47 minutes later and consequently places that call in her book at the time she was walking back to Raf's.

The only inference one can draw from that is that she has not been over it with her legal team over the course of two trials and four years in prison. I am not talking about coaching, which is not allowed where I come from (and usually results in a confused witness trying to remember what they were told to say rather than what they actually remember) but simply confronting her with time line points as an aid to her memory - which is.

She hypothesised on her blog that the lamp was probably borrowed by Meredith. Silly girl. She has not read my article and as a consequence neither she nor her team properly got to grips with that point, albeit the only harm that came from it was in the internet (assuming there were no 'hidden' findings in Massei) where people who don't properly understand the principles think the photographs prove the lamp was already in the room.

Her book disclosed she is confused about raw data and EDFs. She thinks the SAL records = raw data and implies that the prosecution fully discharged its disclosure obligations during the Massei trial. So she is wrong about a fundamental point. One of the worrying things about that is that non-disclosure will be a key plank in any eventual application to the ECHR and, like Randy says, it would be better for her if she deepened her own understanding of what has been happening because over-reliance on what may not always be the best advice is not recommended.

I sense a 'too many cooks' problem in her camp, with offers of advice and help coming in from many quarters, not all of them sound. What she needs is a small, well-chosen, tightly-knit and trusted team and a firewall enclosing her and them so she can focus. The one key area of that focus, with an eye on the ECHR and extradition as well, should be the period 02-06 November 2007.

1. When did the cops identify Patrick?
2. why did they not seal his place off?
3. why did they select a knife from Raf's place?
4. how come they did not locate the phone from which Patrick sent the 20:18 text?
5. what exactly did De Felice say at the press conference of which there ought to be a transcript or footage from which to take one?
6. what do the notes or recordings of her earlier interviews say?
7. on what date did they set up the environmental thing at Le Chic?

and more.

ETA and why has she said on three separate occasions that I have been able to identify that the cops showed her Patrick's message? I would want an expert view on whether the Sim would still tell us when that message was deleted and then I would request access to it for examination. Well, if I had a time machine I would. It's too *********** late now.

 

[Samson]

I agree, they really need to get themselves together as it is their lives at stake. They don't seem to be getting any decent advice - and they should have ensured that every point in their books was compatible with each other and accurate with the known records, otherwise it is just sloppy work.

They need to become experts in their own case - and sack the lawyers that won't talk to the BBC. This case has been so played out in the media, the lawyers involved should have a ready made speech to highlight the main points that prove their innocence - in the same way that the prosecution are always ready to give their nonsense guilty points.

It seems on here at least, time of death plays a big part in why people believe they are innocent. Can't Amanda and Raffale get some expert opinion from a gastroenterologist and start hammering this point home?

They really do need to become experts - they are both in a position where they can talk to any media outlet, they need to be able to stress the main points of their innocence - and start making a lot of noise about not testing the semen stain and the lack of electronic data files and that the pathologist did NOT say that there had to be more than one attacker. They need to be able to quote the experts.

I am amazed that they don't verbally challenge the meme the break in was staged. I would do a youtube powerpoint presentation to refute the nonsense, this is the easiest visual task. After all this is a conviction achieved by the system.

 

[NancyS]

If there stories exactly matched, then they would be attacked for that as well.
Sorry but there is no way that they can win in that regard.
.

Definitely, they are always going to remember things differently - however, when writing a book these details should have been checked

 

[NancyS]

I am amazed that they don't verbally challenge the meme the break in was staged. I would do a youtube powerpoint presentation to refute the nonsense, this is the easiest visual task.

Raffaele should climb the window himself - although the pro-Guede lot would probably love that

 

[Samson]

Raffaele should climb the window himself - although the pro-Guede lot would probably love that

I think we can all chuckle at that NancyS

 

[RoseMontague]

The "beauty" in the fatal gift of beauty quote is Italy, not Amanda or Meredith as some interpret it. It's a quote from Byron. Other than that it is a pretty good article.

I did not know that! Please say more about why "Italy"?

The fuller quote might provide a clue...

“Italia! O Italia! thou who hast The fatal gift of beauty, which became A funeral dower of present woes and past, On thy sweet brow is sorrow plough'd by shame, And annals graved in characters of flame.”

 

[RoseMontague]

Perhaps platonov can explain why he continues to repeat over and over and over this meme of Retrocausality.

From what I remember, it is a running joke. Or poke if you prefer.

ETA...IIRC one of the discussions on this had to do with time of meal vs time of death. In one of the defense filings they listed the time of meal as 6:30-7:00PM even though the testimony has it closer to 6PM. The claim was this was done to make the stomach contents better work for a 10:00PM TOD.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Well I heard they were all crossing their fingers really really hard! So there was disappointment.

Or maybe how about the defense still sucks.

And once more I don't mind being the lone holdout that this type of country wide judicial, scientific, police, Supreme Court error can be related to any case anywhere else in the world...perhaps N Korea. Added to a record of violations that places Italy in the top two tracked...a close second worst to Turkey???

Here we have Italians lining up to stone the witch. Come on...these guys are just a "little extra bad" Charlie and company. Consider the long line of judges and jurors who has looked at this case. If this is something just off with a few bad apples say...Mignini and Napolini for example then don't ya think one of these 896 judges, scientists, jurors, or police would have spoke up by now?

Meanwhile you can count on two hands quite easily those Italians having trouble convicting in this case.

Nuts that the Italians might be unfairly singled out. They are doing it to themselves and their violations are recorded by the ECOHR and they prove that conclusively! This is not a Nyfong ...sorry not even close. Not the same.

The list of things AK is busy with just may get her ass landed back in a jail cell. There is a time for family, boyfriend, and school. This IS NOT that time. She better start listening to someone who understands the issues she should understand about this case. And sure forget the PGP but honestly they have a rather small platform of issues anyway so why not cut them all down? Charlie, if you cant think of these then we know several who can do so.

Knox should have an answer about any banking questions. It is a simply matter that PGP have been making hay with almost since day one. Did she make a curious deposit or not? This is so simple. So easy. But remaining quiet or saying " I don't know" at this point is foolish! You know the answer and you have the records.

I recall this matter being a topic off and on for years. IIRC they blame you for releasing and then removing or editing or saying and changing some damn thing about this deposit or money issue. SO...answer it! Or remain silent and feed the doubt so that it remains a question for everyone still in 2014.

She made a $562 deposit that weekend, and Chris didn't know exactly what it was. He thought it might have been a final check from work in Seattle that had been mailed to her. I am not about to waste her time by asking about it now.

She also took out her rent money, and she debited $62.18 for the stuff she bought at Bubble after her belongings were sealed off at the crime scene.

All of this posted on Monday, Nov. 5 2007.

The rent money was still in her possession when she was arrested.

There is NOTHING that is incriminating or raises any questions. These nuts on the Internet have tried to cook up every wild story they could think of. First they said Amanda was desperate for cash to buy drugs. I countered that by presenting bank records that show a pattern of modest expenditures and no shortage of ready cash. Their response was to latch onto the deposit, claiming she stole Meredith's rent money and deposited it into her checking acct. Except the sum is completely wrong and she withdrew cash for her own share of the rent.

How much time and effort, really, is she supposed to spend against that kind of stupidity? It doesn't matter how clear her explanation is or how irrelevant the subject is. They will find some way to put a guilty spin on it, and if they can't, they will ignore it and move on to something else. Meanwhile it is no part of the legal case. It never came up in the original trial, and not even Crini could make anything of it.

I hope she lives her life as fully as possible while dealing with this, instead of letting it consume her.

 

[Samson]

She made a $562 deposit that weekend, and Chris didn't know exactly what it was. He thought it might have been a final check from work in Seattle that had been mailed to her. I am not about to waste her time by asking about it now.

She also took out her rent money, and she debited $62.18 for the stuff she bought at Bubble after her belongings were sealed off at the crime scene.

All of this posted on Monday, Nov. 5 2007.

The rent money was still in her possession when she was arrested.

There is NOTHING that is incriminating or raises any questions. These nuts on the Internet have tried to cook up every wild story they could think of. First they said Amanda was desperate for cash to buy drugs. I countered that by presenting bank records that show a pattern of modest expenditures and no shortage of ready cash. Their response was to latch onto the deposit, claiming she stole Meredith's rent money and deposited it into her checking acct. Except the sum is completely wrong and she withdrew cash for her own share of the rent.

How much time and effort, really, is she supposed to spend against that kind of stupidity? It doesn't matter how clear her explanation is or how irrelevant the subject is. They will find some way to put a guilty spin on it, and if they can't, they will ignore it and move on to something else. Meanwhile it is no part of the legal case. It never came up in the original trial, and not even Crini could make anything of it.

I hope she lives her life as fully as possible while dealing with this, instead of letting it consume her.

Charlie I take it you believe extradition or incarceration pending can not happen. You were right in saying she would be reconvicted. I will assume you are forecasting a difficult but favourable outcome for Amanda.