Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

Fair enough. However, doesn’t one need to win the hearts and minds of Mr, Mrs and Ms average in <insert country of choice>?

<snip>Aside from my personal motivation, I'd also ask why anyone - even true advocates and partisans - should be overly concerned about any "battle" for hearts and minds, and in particular the hearts and minds of the general public in whatever country. There might be some limited value in trying to convince the genuine decision-makers (courts, politicians etc). But I don't think that this forum (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter) would be a particularly good means of attempting this. Rather, a forum such as this might be useful in terms of generating ideas/strategies, and "road-testing" them, prior to any approach directly to decision-makers.
As regards the general public, though, I would imagine that the only people who worry about what the general public think would be Knox and Sollecito themselves, and their families and close friends. And they have a far, far better chance of communicating with the general public via either the mass media or their own social networking/blog sites, rather than a rather specialised forum such as this. And in this regard, it would appear that Knox in particular has had a significant degree of success in "winning hearts and minds" of the public in the country which (presumably) matters most to her: her home country of the USA.

Yes to the highlighted part.

Public opinion has always been a consideration because of the vulnerability of the Italian people to media influences. Once Mignini established that he wanted to argue his case and destroy Amanda and Raffaele's lives in the newspapers, it was clear, to me, anyway, that there was where the battle was being fought.

Public opinion will be more important than ever if we get to the point of extradition. What I am learning is that it is much more a political process than a judicial one, with the decision, as anglo has instructed us, in the hands of the executive branch. In that case, the most popular opinion will take the day.

In other words, yes to this:

I would think it matters what Mr. and Mrs. Average think when it comes (if it comes) to extradition. I imagine a huge groundswell against extradition would be what a citizen would want. But you are correct, they can probably get that going themselves, via social networking.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well being an average man, I guess this means I have no business being here reading and learning about this case, as I have been doing for quite a long time.

I don't consider you average and your contribution is appreciated.

 

[Poppy1016]

I don't consider you average and your contribution is appreciated.

Well thank you Rose. I am trying to learn from all of you who are certainly way above average in critical thinking skills.

 

[Mary_H]

They don't give a list using a name and a date they started that particular wiretap but the beginning was the second day of investigation (3 Nov). This included Patrick's phone and they also bugged his bar. They certainly wouldn't bother bugging his bar after he was arrested and the bar closed so it is almost certain that this happened before the arrest and most likely the same date (3 Nov). A google translation of that testimony is here...

http://translate.google.com/transla...ri-Tacconi-Latella-Sisani-Buratti.pdf&act=url

From this, it is obvious they did know Patrick Lumumba was the one Amanda was texting the night of the murder. Someone is going to have to help me about why they did not bring Patrick in for questioning once they became curious about the texts. I am wondering if they had a plan to, but once they (perhaps unexpectedly) got their clutches into Amanda, they changed their plan.

 

[Mary_H]

I don't consider you average and your contribution is appreciated.

I completely agree, Poppy.

 

[Poppy1016]

I completely agree, Poppy.

Much appreciated Mary.

 

[RandyN]

It wouldn't matter. It would take a great engineering mind to accomplish the feat and a hell of lot of time coming up with the idea of solving that particular puzzle. It would be like those documentaries where modern engineers try to figure out exactly how they built structures like the Great Pyramids without modern tools like cranes.

I mentioned Filippo Brunelleschi because he was the engineer (jeweler by actual trade) who designed how to build the dome on the the Basilica di Santa Maria in Florence. It is still the largest freestanding masonry dome in the world. And no one knew how he did it and haven't known for almost 600 years. Virtually every engineer looking at it said it shouldn't have been possible to build at the time with the tools they had. Yet here it stands 600 years later. Brunelleschi was so secretive that none of his papers survived his death. It was only in the last couple of years did they figure it out when they discovered an obscure letter written at the time by critic that described how it he was done in detail and that the Dome was dangerous and surely would collapse at any time. 600 years later it is still there.

That is the kind of mind it would take to envision how to only remove Amanda and Raffaele's footprints leaving Rudy's and leave no sign of the cleanup.

Ya...NO! Nova on PBS did his story last month. No more secrets or mysteries left in fact. I do agree that he was the last smart Italian though...wait you didn't say that did you. Anyway he was an engineering genius who not only designed the herringbone pattern of interlocking stone work that was key but who also totally designed a new lift system to raise the material both up and down.

Actually the documentation that was found was written by his critic who determined that he would fail and so documented the critical rope alignment patterns including the work platform that had the key "flower" shape that put the reverse arch forms exactly where they needed to be. Here ya go...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/great-cathedral-mystery.html

Italians have apparently all gone looney now. They arrest scientists for failing to predict earthquakes. They drive modern cruise ships onto rocks marked for a thousand years...meanwhile my cheapest boat has GPS and depth marking devices that beep when I get in shallow water. ($150 IIRC) They do bad science like the example we have been shown done by Biondo and Stefanoni. Totally unscientific non-standard, non repeatable, non peer reviewed tests that come up with impossible conclusions and then they go out and get ten other Italians to swear that yes this testing is good. OK! Perfect! Prove it is wrong! Its idiotic. Novelli? He should quit and go out and kill himself in disgrace. Or God should take mercy and strike him dead with a meteorite hit to the head.

The Italians got caught rigging the system. (Something they likely routinely did without concern) They were too stupid to let it go when caught and now instead of being waist deep in a swamp filled with alligators they are in it up to their necks.

Extradition.

USA has been trying to extradite known terrorists out of Denmark for a couple of years now. One guy planed and produced a suicide attack that killed 30 plus American soldiers. Years later he remains in Denmark. We are turning over convicted terrorists to civilian courts and other countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan (and we call the Italians dumb???) meanwhile Guantanamo is being shut down ...no one new there since 2008 IIRC.

Knox IS NOT going anywhere by extradition anytime soon. No matter what others say...Extraditions require Extradition hearings...that is what they are doing in Denmark right now...and yes we have extradition agreements with Denmark and the death penalty thing is not at issue.

The Italians can only make themselves look dumber and even more corrupt IMO. I wonder if they can still even build a dome? The Nova program sent American stone workers to Italy to solve this "mystery". For the record there was one Italian guy who was running the experiment. Perhaps they should make him the next Emperor of Italy. Cant be worse than what they have now.

 

[RandyN]

]I have always thought that disputing the presence of Raffaele's DNA on the bra fastener is the least tenable of the defense arguments and one they should have avoided.[/HILITE] Why hand the opposition a narrow argument they can focus on and win?

Vogt and her ilk completely ignore the broader issues at stake. To accept the DNA evidence in this case, one must take a certain view:

Lab procedures don't matter, chain of custody doesn't matter, and police procedures at the crime scene don't matter. As long as the authorities can come up with a DNA test result that seems to prop up an accusation they have already made, it must be accepted as valid.

That, apparently, is the official stance of the Italian court system at this point. It's not what anyone was saying at the forensics conference in Seattle this past week. This is exactly what responsible people are trying to prevent, and they are looking hard at the case and the findings of the courts.

Yep...me too! So...

They should refute with RS and at least two or maybe four other males are on the bra clasp. So Mr Prosecutor how did all these people get on this tiny clasp? And don't stop asking that question until you get a satisfactory answer. Caso closedO.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yep. I wonder if the present owners wouldn't mind just leasing it out for a few months to do some experimenting?

We already know you can't hear the running steps from the channel 5 doc.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well being an average man, I guess this means I have no business being here reading and learning about this case, as I have been doing for quite a long time.

My definition of 'average' is not the same as yours.

 

[anglolawyer]

Much appreciated Mary.

Thanks to reading and interacting here I consider myself qualified to assume control of Stefanoni's lab in Rome. I now have a good working knowledge of DNA profiling, viz.

1. Random and arbitrary evidence collection
2. Sampling
3. Examination of sample
4. Ignore results of step 3
5. Extraction of DNA
6. Quantification of DNA (I will order that this step be dispensed with as I fail to see the point of it )
7. Amplification (records of the date of this step to be destroyed)
8. Electrophoresis
9. Destroy EDFs
10. Give evidence testifying to the perfect record of the lab.

I suggest Poppy specialise in interrogation techniques and Mary in Italian criminal law. We can all apply for work over there.

ETA this post was produced by the anglo jocularity unit. The serious point is that I could not have written it two years ago.

 

[Samson]

None of the tow truck people would have been able to hear any scream over the screech the tow truck was making when it was lifting the broken down car. But that's not important since Nara was quite clear that the posters proclaiming the murder were on display at the kiosk the next morning. That means Meredith didn't actually scream until the night after Raffaele called the police.





Doesn't anyone read the actual testimonies? I was just reading one where the officer present in Raffaele's flat when they acquired the knife said the flat smelled like it had been cleaned with soap. But then, how would a guy know what cleaning products smell like?

Well being an average man, I guess this means I have no business being here reading and learning about this case, as I have been doing for quite a long time.

I like this post Poppy1016, because I believe, and have said before that all evidence for exoneration is embedded in this thread.
ETA I read following posts, your words have struck a chord.

 

[Desert Fox]

I like this post Poppy1016, because I believe, and have said before that all evidence for exoneration is embedded in this thread.
ETA I read following posts, your words have struck a chord.

There have got to be Guilty discussion boards. . . .Do they bring up anything as far as evidence?

 

[LondonJohn]

I'd have thought so given that Mr, Mrs and Ms Average live in the world where decisions are made on extradition, and how hard to pursue and resist moves to extradite. Their opinions will influence these decisions, whether people who closely follow the case like it or not.

Yes, you might be right. But in that case, it's the US public who are the constituency that matters. And since the original question appeared to be regarding this forum in particular, I'd argue that JREFF is not the place where any "battle" is to be won, lost or even fought.

If the US public are going to be influenced, it's going to be via the mass media. Network television, and maybe some major newspapers. The internet can inform people, but I think there's still a massive (and very important) distinction to be made in the critical area of trust. Simply put, people (as a general rule) trust what the major media outlets tell them; they don't yet (and may never) trust internet sites in the same way - they don't have the (perceived) kudos, prestige or reach.

And in any event, I think that any extradition issues in this particular case - even at a purely political level - will be based at least as much on an objective analysis of the facts/evidence than it will be based on public opinion. And I might argue that even then, only a clear and impassioned view by the overwhelming percentage of the population would make any material difference: in other words, if a very large majority in the US vociferously wanted Knox either to be or not to be extradited.

Besides all that, I actually think that the area that has the greatest potential impact on Knox's (and Sollecito's) longer-term prospects is the ECHR application. I think that the US will perhaps take any application to the ECHR (and request a fast initial appraisal of merit by the ECHR) as a factor in any extradition request. And of course any ultimate decisions/rulings by the ECHR will be the pivotal factor in the case against Knox and Sollecito - assuming for a moment that the Italian Supreme Court confirms the guilty verdicts at some point in 2015.

 

[Strozzi]

Yep. I wonder if the present owners wouldn't mind just leasing it out for a few months to do some experimenting?

I suspect they want nothing to do with any reconstruction of the crime. They suffered substantial rental income loss and remodeling expense. At this point, the owners probably want their cottage's notoriety to fade so they can sell the property and be done with it - and move past the terrible crime that occurred there. Rudy harmed them, too, when he murdered their tenant.

 

[lionking]

I've read conflicting opinions on how binding ECHR decisions are on members. I understand that it's up to the member country to actively re-consider decisions in light of an ECHR ruling, but I also understand there have been instances where European countries have said "thank you for your advice - our verdict stands". Didn't the UK ignore a ECHR ruling?

 

[LondonJohn]

James Randi has been involved in some pretty high scrutiny cases such as with memory of water, homeopathy, and psychics.

True enough - but that's Randi's "sweet spot". He has a huge and much-admired international reputation as a person who debunks pseudoscience, so-called "special powers", pseudo-supernaturalism and so on.

So when he speaks or writes on those particular types of subject, people sit up and listen. By contrast, he has pretty much zero reputation or credibility (as far as I can tell) from assessing wrongful convictions, and pretty much zero connectivity to that world.

 

[Samson]

There have got to be Guilty discussion boards. . . .Do they bring up anything as far as evidence?

You know Desertfox, I was flabbergasted by this post today by The Machine, and I can only post this because I read all threads. Many here have dissociated, but I am relatively new, one calendar year, so still assimilating the madness. My apologies in advance to those who deplore the transportation of bizarre crime theories, but if it is trench warfare, it is not sensible to deny the existence of the opposing army.

Courtesy of The Machine.

Here goes.
Here is the unedited version of Mignini's timeline. Please be warned that there is some extremely graphic content below:

November 21, 2009 PERUGIA: Public Prosecutor Manuela Commodi takes the role of narrator as the slides of the murder are shown.outlined today for the court a hypothetical timeline of events for the night Meredith Kercher was murdered:

15:48 (November 1, 2007): Meredith texts her English friends that she will be late from her meeting with them.

16:00 - Meredith leaves the house in Via della Pergola to go to the home of her friends. A few minutes later Raffaele and Amanda leave the cottage in Via della Pergola to go Sollecito’s place..

18:00 - Amanda Knox leaves Raffaele Sollecito’s house. This shown by cell phone records.

18:27 - Raffaele Sollecito interacts with his laptop to watch the film "Amelie".

20:18 - Amanda Knox, in Via Ulisse Rocchi, receives sms from Patrick Lumumba telling her not to go to work that night.

20.30 - Amanda Knox goes back to Via Garibaldi to home of Raffaele Sollecito.

20:38 - Amanda sends sms in reply to Patrick Lumumba.

20:46 - Sollecito turns off his mobile phone. He is still at home in Via Garibaldi.

20:45 – Meredith’s frugal meal with English friends ends. She starts off in the direction of Via della Pergola with a girlfriend who will leave her halfway to go to her home.

21:00 - Meredith is at home, eats a mushroom, lies down on the bed to read some uni lecture notes.

21:10 – No more human interaction on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer.

21:45 - Amanda and Raffaele leave his apartment and go to Piazza Grimana. A few ten of metres away from Via della Pergola, the two young people are talking and watching the house and deciding what to do. They have a suspicious attitude which is reported in court by Curatolo

23:20 - Amanda opens the door of Via della Pergola.

23.20 - Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy enter the house in Via della Pergola, where Meredith was already present. On the video, as explained by the PM, there is no vision about the meeting between Amanda and Rudy, because the reconstruction is based on testimony, the autopsy evidence and medical findings.

23:21 - Amanda and Raffaele go into the bedroom while Rudy goes to the bathroom.

23:25 – A scuffle begins between Amanda, helped by Raffaele, and Meredith. The English girl is taken by the neck, then banged against a cupboard, as shown by wounds to the skull. She resists all this. Rudy Guede enters.

23:30 - Meredith falls to the floor. The three try to undress her her to overcome her; they only manage to take off her trousers. The girl manages to get up, she struggles. At this point, the two knives emerge from the pockets of Amanda and Raffaele: one with a blade of four to five centimetres, the other however a big kitchen knife. Meredith tries to fend off the blades with her right hand. She is wounded.

23:35 – The assault continues. Sollecito tries to rip off the English girl's bra.

23:40 - Meredith is on her knees, threatened by Amanda with the knife while Rudy holds her with one hand and with the other hand carries out an assault on her vagina. There is first knife blow on her face, then straight away another. However these blows are not effective. The three become more violent. With the smaller knife, Sollecito strikes a blow: the blade penetrates 4 centimetres into the neck. There is a harrowing cry , which some witnesses will talk about. Amanda decides to silence her, still according to the video brought to court by the prosecutors, and strikes a blow to the throat with the kitchen knife: it will be the fatal wound. Meredith collapses on the floor.

23:45 – Meredith is helped to get up by Rudy and is coughing up blood. The English girl, dying, is dragged along so that she can continue to be undressed.

23:50 - Amanda and Raffaele take Meredith’s mobile phones and leave the apartment. Only Meredith - dead - and Rudy remain in the house. The Ivorian goes into the bathroom to get several towels to staunch the blood flowing from the English girl's body, then puts a cushion under Meredith's head, as shown by hand prints, according to the prosecution.

00.10 - Meredith's mobile phones are thrown into a garden in Via Sperandio.

00.15 From this moment there are no certainties, according to the video, on the times for the sidetracking which will be put in action by Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito. However, according to the prosecution, in the depth of the night the two ex-lovers will return to the scene of the crime to try and clean up some footprints and to break the window pane of a room in Via della Pergola with the aim of simulating a robbery ending in murder.

Amanda and Raffaele then undress the already deceased victim - the bra will be left a few centimetres from the body - and they will cover her with a feather quilt.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well being an average man, I guess this means I have no business being here reading and learning about this case, as I have been doing for quite a long time.

I am guessing that what anglo might have meant (but correct me if I'm wrong, anglo!) was that a proper reading of - or contribution to - this thread requires at least some small level of commitment to understanding the issues involved.

In the same way, threads on (say) the US Federal Reserve's interest rate policy require the reader or the contributor to have at least a passing familiarity with macro-economics, money supply and monetarism.

Personally, I think that in general the Knox/Sollecito threads here are pitched at a fairly readable and accessible level (barring some occasional wanderings into more arcane and specialised territories). But I also believe it's fair to say that these threads are not aimed at someone who only has an extremely basic knowledge of the case (e.g. they know no more than that there was some murder in Italy and some American girl (and possibly some Italian guy) have apparently been convicted, acquitted and then reconvicted).

 

[anglolawyer]

Gosh, where to begin demolishing that crap? How about the very end? The feather quilt which was soaked with blood which would not have been the case had hours gone by before it covered her. Rudy's DNA on the handbag? Amanda's and Raffaele's magical evidence-free involvement? Where did Rudy get the knife cuts to his fingers, still evident weeks later? Thank goodness motive is irrelevant. And the pointless hanging around in Piazza and the weird arrival on the scene of Guede. It's madness. Thanks for posting this Samson. They forgot to mention the lamp.