Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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LondonJohn said:
Personally speaking, I don't give a damn about "winning hearts and minds". I am not an advocate. I am not even a "supporter" in an active sense of the word. I am someone who finds this subject interesting and who has some opinions on it. I appreciate a forum in which I can debate those opinions, have them challenged, challenge others' opinions, and generally become more well-educated and enlightened about the case.

Aside from my personal motivation, I'd also ask why anyone - even true advocates and partisans - should be overly concerned about any "battle" for hearts and minds, and in particular the hearts and minds of the general public in whatever country. There might be some limited value in trying to convince the genuine decision-makers (courts, politicians etc). But I don't think that this forum (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter) would be a particularly good means of attempting this. Rather, a forum such as this might be useful in terms of generating ideas/strategies, and "road-testing" them, prior to any approach directly to decision-makers.

As regards the general public, though, I would imagine that the only people who worry about what the general public think would be Knox and Sollecito themselves, and their families and close friends. And they have a far, far better chance of communicating with the general public via either the mass media or their own social networking/blog sites, rather than a rather specialised forum such as this. And in this regard, it would appear that Knox in particular has had a significant degree of success in "winning hearts and minds" of the public in the country which (presumably) matters most to her: her home country of the USA.
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I would think it matters what Mr. and Mrs. Average think when it comes (if it comes) to extradition. I imagine a huge groundswell against extradition would be what a citizen would want. But you are correct, they can probably get that going themselves, via social networking.
 
acbytesla said:
That is the crux of the dilemma. I wonder just how many people just read through this forum with an open mind? It certainly doesn't seem like anyone who actually posts ever changes their minds on the question of guilt or innocence.

You seem like you've been in the same position you were a year or two ago. Maintaining a somewhat pro-guilt position. I've always had hope for you since you seem more reasonable than most of the PGP. That said, I wonder if you have moved an inch.
My goal has always been to persuade everyone, but there is almost a universal truth to this kind of debate. And that is anyone who becomes publicly vested on one side of an argument, never publicly flips their position.

So, is it my goal to to demolish my opponents arguments without mercy so those that are just viewing will easily see the superiority of the argument for innocence. Or alternatively be gentle and try futilely to persuade those that cannot be persuaded.

Should I be Genghis Khan or Don Quixote?
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I see hope for you AC. The other day you were quoting Dale Carnegie at me, now you're contemplating brutality! :D
 
CoulsdonUK said:
Fair enough. However, doesn’t one need to win the hearts and minds of Mr, Mrs and Ms average in <insert country of choice>?
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I'd have thought so given that Mr, Mrs and Ms Average live in the world where decisions are made on extradition, and how hard to pursue and resist moves to extradite. Their opinions will influence these decisions, whether people who closely follow the case like it or not.
 
anglolawyer said:
I see hope for you AC. The other day you were quoting Dale Carnegie at me, now you're contemplating brutality! :D
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I'd rather rather rape and pillage (metaphorically) than be mister nice guy. It's a lot more fun and rewarding.

Just like I enjoy a wild attack in chess. For me, it is much more satisfying.

Persuading on the other hand is more difficult, like those strategic games that you enjoy so much that very often result in a draw.
 
lionking said:
I'd have thought so given that Mr, Mrs and Ms Average live in the world where decisions are made on extradition, and how hard to pursue and resist moves to extradite. Their opinions will influence these decisions, whether people who closely follow the case like it or not.
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But those people will only be interested in having the US say no to extradition if they are persuaded that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Otherwise, they will say "send her back".
 
CoulsdonUK said:
Fair enough. However, doesn’t one need to win the hearts and minds of Mr, Mrs and Ms average in <insert country of choice>?
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lionking said:
I'd have thought so given that Mr, Mrs and Ms Average live in the world where decisions are made on extradition, and how hard to pursue and resist moves to extradite. Their opinions will influence these decisions, whether people who closely follow the case like it or not.
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Those that give an opinion might have some influence.
 
yimyammer said:
To me, this is the biggest elephant in the room I never hear mentioned.

How in the heck with all that blood are there not three different footprints in this room?

Additionally, for those that believe the partial foot print among the cluster of prints identified as Rudy's is Amanda's, did Amanda levitate to that location and leave only a single partial print?

How does that happen?
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I would like to see a stage of action with people using a rubber knife and find a way to simulate the blood of the victim. Once that it done, I would like to take a professional clean up crew and tell them that they are to clean up the blood of only our Amanda and Raffaele stand ins and not our Ruby stand in. I think it is impossible.

If the argument is that they were just in the house "Cheering Ruby On" then the DNA on the bra clasp and the knife is still contamination.
 
LondonJohn said:
Aside from my personal motivation, I'd also ask why anyone - even true advocates and partisans - should be overly concerned about any "battle" for hearts and minds, and in particular the hearts and minds of the general public in whatever country. There might be some limited value in trying to convince the genuine decision-makers (courts, politicians etc). But I don't think that this forum (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter) would be a particularly good means of attempting this. Rather, a forum such as this might be useful in terms of generating ideas/strategies, and "road-testing" them, prior to any approach directly to decision-makers.
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James Randi has been involved in some pretty high scrutiny cases such as with memory of water, homeopathy, and psychics.
 
Desert Fox said:
I would like to see a stage of action with people using a rubber knife and find a way to simulate the blood of the victim. Once that it done, I would like to take a professional clean up crew and tell them that they are to clean up the blood of only our Amanda and Raffaele stand ins and not our Ruby stand in. I think it is impossible.
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It is impossible. If they did, Amanda and Raffaele would be two incredible geniuses rivaling Einstein, Isaac Newton, and ‎Filippo Brunelleschi. (See, I named an American and a Brit and an Italian)

Desert Fox said:
If the argument is that they were just in the house "Cheering Ruby On" then the DNA on the bra clasp and the knife is still contamination.
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Even more absurd. That would be the coincidence to rival all coincidences. When you consider the overall population. What are the odds of three crazy homicidal lunatics of the same violent minds getting together all in the space of one week?
 
acbytesla said:
It is impossible. If they did, Amanda and Raffaele would be two incredible geniuses rivaling Einstein, Isaac Newton, and ‎Filippo Brunelleschi. (See, I named an American and a Brit and an Italian)
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I agree but I think a demonstration would be worth a 1000 words. There are enough friendly faces, I think such a demonstration would cost almost no money. Probably built the thing out of plywood with a light layer of paint.

Of note, even if Amanda wanted to be part, I would argue no. In fact would try to find somebody who, while of similar height and weight, looks as different as possible otherwise.

acbytesla said:
Even more absurd. That would be the coincidence to rival all coincidences. When you consider the overall population. What are the odds of three crazy homicidal lunatics of the same violent minds getting together all in the space of one week?
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Facebook :p
 
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Desert Fox said:
I agree but I think a demonstration would be worth a 1000 words. There are enough friendly faces, I think such a demonstration would cost almost no money. Probably built the thing out of plywood with a light layer of paint.
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While I'm sure of your specific idea, I do strongly support a docudrama production. I would feature the evidence that was used and abused. The alleged footprints, the alleged DNA (with a demonstration of how small an amount they had), the window climb video, a demonstration of how easy it would be to throw the rock, the chief proudly proclaiming cased closed with Patrick as the killer, the scene of PL being arrested but no knife being tested, etc.

I think that the more grisly it gets the less effective, but clearly only an opinion.

I also would like to see Anglo's angle on what was going on with the police from day one acted out. When did they ID Patrick? When did they know his number? When did they start tapping phones and whose?
 
Grinder said:
While I'm sure of your specific idea, I do strongly support a docudrama production. I would feature the evidence that was used and abused. The alleged footprints, the alleged DNA (with a demonstration of how small an amount they had), the window climb video, a demonstration of how easy it would be to throw the rock, the chief proudly proclaiming cased closed with Patrick as the killer, the scene of PL being arrested but no knife being tested, etc.

I think that the more grisly it gets the less effective, but clearly only an opinion.

I also would like to see Anglo's angle on what was going on with the police from day one acted out. When did they ID Patrick? When did they know his number? When did they start tapping phones and whose?
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They don't give a list using a name and a date they started that particular wiretap but the beginning was the second day of investigation (3 Nov). This included Patrick's phone and they also bugged his bar. They certainly wouldn't bother bugging his bar after he was arrested and the bar closed so it is almost certain that this happened before the arrest and most likely the same date (3 Nov). A google translation of that testimony is here...

http://translate.google.com/transla...ri-Tacconi-Latella-Sisani-Buratti.pdf&act=url
 
Grinder said:
While I'm sure of your specific idea, I do strongly support a docudrama production. I would feature the evidence that was used and abused. The alleged footprints, the alleged DNA (with a demonstration of how small an amount they had), the window climb video, a demonstration of how easy it would be to throw the rock, the chief proudly proclaiming cased closed with Patrick as the killer, the scene of PL being arrested but no knife being tested, etc.

I think that the more grisly it gets the less effective, but clearly only an opinion.

I also would like to see Anglo's angle on what was going on with the police from day one acted out. When did they ID Patrick? When did they know his number? When did they start tapping phones and whose?
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I don't have the film experience to do such a thing. I just think the actual logistics behind the "test" would not be hard.

If this idea was to be pursued, what would be the next step?
 
Desert Fox said:
I don't have the film experience to do such a thing. I just think the actual logistics behind the "test" would not be hard.

If this idea was to be pursued, what would be the next step?
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Last I heard the cottage was up for sale. Buy it and do whatever you want.
 
Desert Fox said:
I agree but I think a demonstration would be worth a 1000 words. There are enough friendly faces, I think such a demonstration would cost almost no money. Probably built the thing out of plywood with a light layer of paint.
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It wouldn't matter. It would take a great engineering mind to accomplish the feat and a hell of lot of time coming up with the idea of solving that particular puzzle. It would be like those documentaries where modern engineers try to figure out exactly how they built structures like the Great Pyramids without modern tools like cranes.

I mentioned Filippo Brunelleschi because he was the engineer (jeweler by actual trade) who designed how to build the dome on the the Basilica di Santa Maria in Florence. It is still the largest freestanding masonry dome in the world. And no one knew how he did it and haven't known for almost 600 years. Virtually every engineer looking at it said it shouldn't have been possible to build at the time with the tools they had. Yet here it stands 600 years later. Brunelleschi was so secretive that none of his papers survived his death. It was only in the last couple of years did they figure it out when they discovered an obscure letter written at the time by critic that described how it he was done in detail and that the Dome was dangerous and surely would collapse at any time. 600 years later it is still there.

That is the kind of mind it would take to envision how to only remove Amanda and Raffaele's footprints leaving Rudy's and leave no sign of the cleanup.
 
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RoseMontague said:
Last I heard the cottage was up for sale. Buy it and do whatever you want.
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While I live only a few miles from the ordeals of the Norfolk Four, my ideal place to live is NOT Italy.

I was thinking of something more akin to what Discovery - Unsolved History generally did. Close reproductions of evens a bit closer to home.

Knowing my luck, we all get arrested for staging the scene and get 4 years in jail. I don't want to learn Italian that way.
 
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anglolawyer said:
I don't think this thread is for the average woman or man. It's for folk who are willing to meet the demands of this complicated case.
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Well being an average man, I guess this means I have no business being here reading and learning about this case, as I have been doing for quite a long time.
 
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