Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[The Big Dog]

The EU has never offered anything close to a full membership. That "association" agreement carries already enough problems. Turkey will enter before Ukraine does, if you know what I mean. But a good lot of the really peaceful protestors on the ground have completely utopic ideas about what that "path to EU" would contain, like unconditional basic income tomorrow. Likely it is similar to Syria and other places, that the people know that the "state media" is not trustworthy and therefore suck up everything that comes from the outside, with catastrophic consequences if that media is also corrupt, and even more and systematically so, like Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya were in the Syria thing. Excellent documentary on this phenomenon here.

"Maidan" is the main square in Kiev like "Tahrir" was in Cairo and was renamed "Euromaidan" by activists/propagandists.

Did Ce ever acknowledge how wrong she was on the sniper thing? No?

Oh.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Why does the lack of publicity over the lack of rights for Saudi citizens need to deflect away from the matter at hand?

Not so much trying to deflect as to encourage you to reflect. Because, when you apply freedom campaigns in a one-sided way you get this problem:

1) Left-wing unfree countries are overthrown, even if they have elections but the president has a little too much power, etc.
2) Right-wing un-free countries that cooperate with Western economies are protected
3) Democracy may bring lefties to power, putting those countries at risk, until some rightist ends that and then they're safe.
4) End picture: a world full of right wing pro-business dictatorships and no more freedom campaigns ever.

That's more a philosophical point than a practical one to consider with each case, but we work closer to that point with every left-leaning government overthrown.

Put another way: Sure, Pinochet is a jerk, but so was Allende. Why should we give one dictator a free pass just because the other one's a jerk too?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Nice stereotypic outburst there. Embarrassing for you that those who fight against the "Moscow-Jewish Mafia" and want to throw all Un-Ukrainians into the Dnepr are seen with your beloved idols of "Western values" and are defended here by the "suspects" usually on your side of the "argument". Too funny. Maybe there's something broken in your worldview, pal, at least you should be careful to mouth off about stuff you have no clue about.

Good turnaround there. And thanks for the video link. Will be back.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Did Ce ever acknowledge how wrong she was on the sniper thing? No?

Oh.

She was way less wrong than McHrozni. Bullet was coming from more the camera location than from the front. So she deduced the people filming and shooting were allied. It has happened before, as I mentioned earlier, documented in the Libya regime change operation.

Then later, just talking angles, she said she wasn't saying anything about who, and at that moment wasn't - it was a geometry issue. But yeah, the angle still suggested that and was probably still the point. And the point wasn't the best either since there can be ricochet (one is seen) and there are definitely bullets coming from the front too.

It was, however, a better thought than these:
- McHrozni's staged non-firebombing scene,
- my own rioter jabbing cops with tranquilizers theory
- some others

 

[Caustic Logic]

I have the 40-min Youtube video saved (only way I can even watch it well) On first scan, I'm not seeing much that's different from what I've seen. Rioters - only unarmed ones shown but there must be armed ones too or why bother? - advancing on something official, getting shot in the legs and stuff on occasion. At 35:08 you can see one of their white power crosses they try not to display too much these days. As I suspected, this is the Svoboda party's Nazi thugs "protesting" and taking over Kiev and killing police.

Any interesting points in the video anyone can point me to? I'm not sure which spots to analyze to double-check an allegation. I don't yet see anything criminal going on, except the foreground action by right-wing anti-semitic fascist gangs most people here would just cheer.

 

[Caustic Logic]

See for reference this photo of earlier clahses (date, unsure), where we see the cross with the circle. As the source I found it at explains,

Here protesters clash with riot police, one carries a homemade shield painted with a white power symbol and the numbers 14 and 88. These numbers are common neo-Nazi slogans;with 14 standing for David Lane’s slogan (We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children) and 88 as code for HH, or Heil Hitler.

Anyone disagree? Not a central point, just worth noting. The anger we see in these protests - how much of it is Jew-hating, etc.? Stuff we'd normally abhor?

Have they taken over the capitol by now or what? Do they run the armories? I need to catch up...

 

[Caustic Logic]

So the Svoboda mobs did their part. In the last post I gave a link with lots of images. To consider: their old symbol (if true) vs. the new one. They clearly changed from an angular, threatening, Nazi-ish group, to puffy, friendly, R. Crumb-inspired, laid back Euromaidan peaceniks. And we've seen a bit of how that change plays out on the ground.

One presumes they'll now melt back and let this all seem like the "protesters" did it, with their righteous pro-Europe anger alone. Parliament too, obviously has votes behind it, and the majority needed to now order Tymoshenko freed. "Martyrd" in a wheelchair for some reason, having been jailed on grounds I'm not familiar with, she was cheered at the "Euromaidan" and called the people who took over the capitol - or rather, the assembled presentable hippies - heros. " “I was dreaming to see your eyes. I was dreaming to feel the power that changed everything.” NYT Oh my God she has such a beautiful soul! What a touching moment in history! Some cops felt that power in a way she wouldn't want to.

The paranoid autocrat under EU sanctions over people being shot during the non-coup over EU membership, the deposed leader, has reportedly fled, ridiculously calling this some sort of a coup, a conspiracy. The NYT (same link) describes him as: "Abandoned by his own guards and reviled across the Ukrainian capital but still determined to recover his shredded authority."

Anyway, the people apparently have spoken, some good number seem to have gotten their way. How things seem vs. pan out in this sudden and dramatic chain of events may be different, with a murky next stage, and unclear present stage even.

And how they spoke was in an odd chorus worth of more study. Soaring utopian notes underpinned with a Fascist machine that overpowered authority and made this happen, made the president afraid he'd be clubbed to death as a Moscow-Jew mafia puppet, and run like hell. This overpowering rhythm section probably doesn't come free. They got organized with big numbers, militant strategy, and they were fired up those few days. I sense a pact with powerful people is underneath the kind of chutzpah we saw in this blitzkrieg.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It was, however, a better thought than these:

Thanks for defending me but I think it's better to leave nonsense like that in the nether regions where it belongs. When I said I didn't make a comment about who these people were, I obviously meant their identity - Berkut, Right Sector, Blackwater, Da Joos, whoever. And as to the angle - the arguments didn't convince me that my first assessment was wrong, and if it was, it's really a minor point and quite funny to see (in quotes, not in original) some attempts at getting attention/play the discredit game. I say let them harp.

 

[Klimax]

See for reference this photo of earlier clahses (date, unsure), where we see the cross with the circle. As the source I found it at explains,


Anyone disagree? Not a central point, just worth noting. The anger we see in these protests - how much of it is Jew-hating, etc.? Stuff we'd normally abhor?

Have they taken over the capitol by now or what? Do they run the armories? I need to catch up...

You are finding really great trustworthy sources... /sarcasm
About as good as RT, well bit less as it looks like just random blog...

We knew that there were some extremists in there, so an example shows nothing. However that page you linked jumps so far with conclusion that they'd get past Mars with that power... (and looks very baseless)

==

Alias nothing to see here, move along just random links to random biased nonsense.

 

[Klimax]

So the Svoboda mobs did their part. In the last post I gave a link with lots of images. To consider: their old symbol (if true) vs. the new one. They clearly changed from an angular, threatening, Nazi-ish group, to puffy, friendly, R. Crumb-inspired, laid back Euromaidan peaceniks. And we've seen a bit of how that change plays out on the ground.
...

Images showing nothing not really unexpected. We already were there previously...

Frankly, it speaks volume that you have to resort to blogs like uprootedpalestinians, to even get somewhere.

 

[trustbutverify]

Images showing nothing not really unexpected. We already were there previously...

Frankly, it speaks volume that you have to resort to blogs like uprootedpalestinians, to even get somewhere.

That disgusting blog is populated by neo-Nazi holocaust denying filth. It's worse than useless.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Thanks for defending me but I think it's better to leave nonsense like that in the nether regions where it belongs. When I said I didn't make a comment about who these people were, I obviously meant their identity - Berkut, Right Sector, Blackwater, Da Joos, whoever. And as to the angle - the arguments didn't convince me that my first assessment was wrong, and if it was, it's really a minor point and quite funny to see (in quotes, not in original) some attempts at getting attention/play the discredit game. I say let them harp.

Well it kept coming up in text, harder to ignore than in the ether... and I did hold off putting that back in context, as I saw it. Even if you were trying to "sneak in" a distancing, WTH? It's a rhetorical device, to separate issues and focus on the visual without bias. Your angle analysis seems about right to me. One way or another, from behind. But it could be ricochet, or a fragment even. Or a small caliber, maybe .22.

Hmmm... pure thought exercise, but would Nazi toughs be willing to take distance shots in the legs mainly from their own friends? Small enough caliber, sure.​

The counter arguments were borderline silly, and defensive. I don't think the bullet passed through the tree. It doesn't nick it on the side - the mark is "in the middle" as seen, meaning on the line from tree's center to the camera.

Anyway, moving on...

 

[Caustic Logic]

That disgusting blog is populated by neo-Nazi holocaust denying filth. It's worse than useless.

And to Klimax but less so:

Ah, so that's not Svoboda's previous logo? "14" is NOT a David Irving Lane ref, and 88 is NOT a Hitler ref, and that cross is not a Nazi symbol, AND the protesters are not Nazis? Any/all/none? Otherwise, your point please, relative to the topic?

Should I start listing CNN's Wall Street owners and CFR connections and dismissing everything mainstream as corporate media propaganda, run by warmongering shills for the monied elite? No, I quietly acknowledge, consider all biases and info, and move on. WAY LESS TEDIOUS that way.

In case more than tedious obstructionism ever enters your agenda here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Images showing nothing not really unexpected. We already were there previously...

Frankly, it speaks volume that you have to resort to blogs like uprootedpalestinians, to even get somewhere.

And to TBV, but less so. Seriously? That the photo I used, to illustrate something you already know (acknowledge as fact), just in case you didn't know ... it happened to be at that blog, where I had the link handy ... and that "speaks volumes" ... about what? How I "got somewhere"? Can you spare a sentence or two from these hypothetical "volumes"?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Sounds like nothing can justify it. I'd give that a crack, but I have a ridiculous computer that won't let me see it ATM, old or new player.

No such 10:00 plus video on Youtube. By title, Shocking video shows snipers picking off protesters (2:16) might be snippet? No, people talking about having been shot at. A metal shield is shown, alarmed activists showing how the snipers, with some powerful rounds, had punched right through, and left blood, on the metal wound. As Wayne Courts noted there and I agreed and added to, those look more like pick-axe punctures. A bit square-sided for bullet holes. And the added fingernail polish, I think - about as good a shade as you can find, I suppose.

Not to make light, but there seems to be some fakery. But certainly in other areas, where people are getting shot dead, that's sounding pretty real.

Lol. For the record - that video suddenly doesn't exist. Maybe my comment tipped them off. I wish I saved a screen grab first, but the blood seemed too glossy to be anything buy nail polish or some such. It was really stupid, just deleted in embarrassment, I suspect.

Glad I saved Wayne's name. I'm-a go friend him or something, high-five.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Klimax, do you know for what the Gas Princess was in prison?

No answer, so I tell you. She was in prison for signing deals with the Russians she wasn't authorized to sign. Energy deals, prices too high. Those charges could be a bit like jailing Capone for a questionable speeding ticket, but what I want to show you with this is that your silly and politically illiterate fantasy that I wish that "Ukraine falls to Putin" or however you put it is total nonsense and again projection. You want Ukraine to fall to "the West", because of your Russophobia. In reality the two countries are close and will ever be close, Putin or not Putin, and he is likely more happy to deal with the wicked Timoshenko (and watch the hotel cam footage from her shower) than he is to deal with the unfortunate and untalented Janukovic.

@CL: David Lane, not Irving. Some influential "white power" scumbag.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Have they taken over the capitol by now or what? Do they run the armories? I need to catch up...

Good question. Contradicting information. Let's hope they all just go home and have a peaceful election in May.

For the record, though, the leader of the "Right Sector" crowd, Dimitri Jarosh, has also spoken on the Maidan on Friday and got some considerable applause, and someone subtitled one of the propaganda videos on their youtube channel I asked people to browse. Doesn't sound like going home:

 

[Dcdrac]

My wife seldom talks to me about politics, but she has been following this closely since it started, and (being from Kyiv, and part of a politically-active family) she knows a hell of a lot more about it than any ivory-tower internet activists. She insists that this is not about East vs. West, Russia vs. Europe, or a desire for fascism. This is simply rage by the people against a kleptocratic government, led by a man who would rather shoot protestors than step aside.

My colleagues wife is also from there, well originally Pripryat before the reactor blow up, and she feels the same.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Good question. Contradicting information. Let's hope they all just go home and have a peaceful election in May.

For the record, though, the leader of the "Right Sector" crowd, Dimitri Jarosh, has also spoken on the Maidan on Friday and got some considerable applause, and someone subtitled one of the propaganda videos on their youtube channel I asked people to browse. Doesn't sound like going home:

Clearly these are the fake Nazis Putin had brought in to make the protesters look bad. Acting all scary... everyone ignore.

My colleagues wife is also from there, well originally Pripryat before the reactor blow up, and she feels the same.

In both cases, might mean nothing more than reading the Western news, always liking it before, having been attracted westward out of Ukraine in the first place. (maybe?) Also, some people also lose tough with the details and get fuzzy in their understanding of events after leaving, limiting the value of their opinions in that area. But clearly these opinions do exist in considerable numbers. The sampling helps show that. Well-informed or not, I'm sure they're all well-intentioned. And similar views do seem to be current in Kiev, at least in parliament, and in Tymoshenko's circle, etc.

But there's something ugly at least going on too, and I hope Ukrainians - most of them - can come together around something based on the truth, and not one side's empire vs. another's. I hope this doesn't lead to more ugly stuff.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Lol. For the record - that video suddenly doesn't exist.

That wasn't the original posting of course. That still exists. Radio Svoboda posting. Saved. On review, that could be real blood, but unlikely from a shooting. Only one hole is clearly all square. There's 3 or 4 different kinds of holes. Whatever.