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Definition of Consciousness

Anders Lindman said:
The information context in the integrated information theory is what makes consciousness possible. When for example a video camera is filming a red apple, then there is only the raw images, the pixel information, being detected. The video camera doesn't have any context within which to compare and interpret the image data. A human brain on the other hand has a huge information context about what a red apple is and about everything that is NOT a red apple. And it's the ability to simultaneously integrate all that information into a single experience that enables consciousness.
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It's still only a measurement of the system, it's not the system, itself.

Integrated information might be a prerequisite for consciousness. It could be an ingredient that makes consciousness possible. But, it's not the only essential thing that consciousness is. It is still not actually consciousness, itself.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I think it can be true. Remember, information cannot exist in isolation. Information is always connected to the physical non-isolated foundation.

And consciousness can simply be a state that is activated when enough information is integrated in certain ways into a single experience.
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You are mistaken again. But pay me no mind.

I am looking forward to your interlocution with Navigator. That should yield a word salad banquet fit to feed the masses. :D
 
Watson the computer may well be able to beat a chess master, because it can compute all the possible moves faster than a human mind. But all it is really doing is adding ones and zeros very fast. It will never be conscious.
If my computer ever looks like it is conscious I will smash it with a hammer.

Now another question arises which is, are animals conscious or are they just responding to the environment by instinct. My answer to that is, I had a pet bird that I a sure was self aware. She is the one in my avatar. She liked to kiss herself in the mirror, but if I called her she moved away toward me, because I am sure she knew I was real, and she knew her reflection was not another bird.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Yep. One side is mind-less: consciousness. The mind is the information. There can be mind activity without consciousness, such as subconscious activity. There cannot be consciousness without mind activity.
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You seem to be saying that the mind is separate from what consciousness itself is. The mind is different from consciousness in that the mind is the data.

The data is the fact of matter. That thing being experienced. What is doing the experiencing? Consciousness. Nothing 'else'. The 'mind' is not the matter (data of experience). The 'mind' is not data experiencing itself any more than than brain is.

The brain is data. Consciousness is that which is able to observe the brain (data) and say what that data 'is'. Mind seems to be another word for 'consciousness' in relation to the human brain.

What is referred to as 'subconscious activity' is (as far as I understand) something that runs along on auto...and is not part f the experience of Consciousness on a conscious level. We don't have the subconscious data circulating with our conscious experience. Sometimes it impinges upon that experience and may be the reason for what are referred to as 'paranormal/supernatural' due to its rarity on day to day experience and hard to pin down properties.

"Higher self' (the concept of) is similar in that it too is more delegated to things which can be seen as 'sub conscious'...not directly engaged in our conscious awareness as we (from our perspective) experience it.
 
Wowbagger said:
It's still only a measurement of the system, it's not the system, itself.

Integrated information might be a prerequisite for consciousness. It could be an ingredient that makes consciousness possible. But, it's not the only essential thing that consciousness is. It is still not actually consciousness, itself.
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Are you sure? What if integration of information in certain ways is all that is needed for consciousness to emerge as a state?
 
Your mind has to be separate from your consciousness because that's where the Woo goes.
 
Navigator said:
You seem to be saying that the mind is separate from what consciousness itself is. The mind is different from consciousness in that the mind is the data.

The data is the fact of matter. That thing being experienced. What is doing the experiencing? Consciousness. Nothing 'else'. The 'mind' is not the matter (data of experience). The 'mind' is not data experiencing itself any more than than brain is.
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Mind is the information. And consciousness is a state that emerges when the information is integrated in certain ways.

So consciousness itself is just a state, not some thing, substance or energy.

Take the human brain which causes information to be integrated which in turn causes consciousness to emerge as a state. So it's not separate objects.
 
Scorpion said:
Watson the computer may well be able to beat a chess master, because it can compute all the possible moves faster than a human mind. But all it is really doing is adding ones and zeros very fast. It will never be conscious.
If my computer ever looks like it is conscious I will smash it with a hammer.
Now another question arises which is, are animals conscious or are they just responding to the environment by instinct. My answer to that is, I had a pet bird that I a sure was self aware. She is the one in my avatar. She liked to kiss herself in the mirror, but if I called her she moved away toward me, because I am sure she knew I was real, and she knew her reflection was not another bird.
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If my computer displayed sings of consciousness I would be wanting to get to know it and communicate with it.

I have a mouse. She is conscious and displays signs of self awareness and we can communicate, man to mouse. My role is caregiver and her role is teaching me to care. I would say that both roles are determined by my human capacity and that my role is not important to her in terms of defining. She simply lives the life she is having and might likely not even realize she is my captive and my fondly calling her 'little one' means nothing to her although the tone might be understood by her in relation to my actions toward her.
 
Navigator said:
You seem to be saying that the mind is separate from what consciousness itself is. The mind is different from consciousness in that the mind is the data.

The data is the fact of matter. That thing being experienced. What is doing the experiencing? Consciousness. Nothing 'else'. The 'mind' is not the matter (data of experience). The 'mind' is not data experiencing itself any more than than brain is.

The brain is data. Consciousness is that which is able to observe the brain (data) and say what that data 'is'. Mind seems to be another word for 'consciousness' in relation to the human brain.

What is referred to as 'subconscious activity' is (as far as I understand) something that runs along on auto...and is not part f the experience of Consciousness on a conscious level. We don't have the subconscious data circulating with our conscious experience. Sometimes it impinges upon that experience and may be the reason for what are referred to as 'paranormal/supernatural' due to its rarity on day to day experience and hard to pin down properties.

"Higher self' (the concept of) is similar in that it too is more delegated to things which can be seen as 'sub conscious'...not directly engaged in our conscious awareness as we (from our perspective) experience it.
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Oh! This is good stuff. You and Anders Lindman need to flesh this out. Whichever one of you gets the last word here can meet in Madison Square Garden to fight for the coveted Least Erudite Pedant award!

Be aware that you have serious competition. PM me for the names of the top contenders.
 
Here is an interesting article on consciousness.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/consciou/

I am pleased to see that the article says Daniel Dennet is accused of explaining away consciousness, rather than explaining it.
 
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Anders Lindman said:
Mind is the information. And consciousness is a state that emerges when the information is integrated in certain ways.

So consciousness itself is just a state, not some thing, substance or energy.

Take the human brain which causes information to be integrated which in turn causes consciousness to emerge as a state. So it's not separate objects.
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This is information:
images


According to you 'mind' is information so thus the above is an image of 'what mind is'?

Rather what is mined from the image is data. That thing in the image is not 'consciousness' nor does it become consciousness when it is mined. Consciousness is required before anything can be examined thus it is not the process of examining/understanding which actually produces consciousness. These are actions of consciousness.
 
Woo is required before any Woo can Woo to produce Woo. These are actions of Woo.
 
Navigator said:
This is information:
[qimg]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsjUJymQ6lA4lHCSS9TE8DvQ5IdnDtPZRk_Fyi8c4uSpe1jwg6ON8gSe-_:www.hdpaperwall.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/galaxy.jpg[/qimg]

According to you 'mind' is information so thus the above is an image of 'what mind is'?

Rather what is mined from the image is data. That thing in the image is not 'consciousness' nor does it become consciousness when it is mined. Consciousness is required before anything can be examined thus it is not the process of examining/understanding which actually produces consciousness. These are actions of consciousness.
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The information must be 'put together' in certain ways for there to be mind activities. And the information must be integrated in certain ways for the mind to cause consciousness to emerge. Otherwise it's subconscious mind activity.
 
Anders Lindman said:
The human brain, is it information that it integrates into a single experience? I think maybe yes. Signal molecules such as neurotransmitters etc, that's ultimately information!
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These are the processes of mining information in action. The information is the process of what is happening.

Consciousness is what then processes that information and gives it meaning, purpose, direction, explanation etc...

I relation to the brain, consciousness is that which seeks to understand. It may be a product of that brain process (in relation to being human) but it is able to view itself independently as well.

It does not say "I am the brain". It says "I am" That which says "I am" is consciousness, not the brain which (might have) birthed it.
 
Anders Lindman said:
1: The information must be 'put together' in certain ways for there to be mind activities.


And the information must be integrated in certain ways for the mind to cause consciousness to emerge. Otherwise it's subconscious mind activity.
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1: What 'certain ways'?

2: You are speaking of 'sub-consciousness' as not being part of what consciousness is overall.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Are you sure? What if integration of information in certain ways is all that is needed for consciousness to emerge as a state?
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Apparently, as far as I can tell at the moment:
There also needs to be the opportunity for the system to work semi-independently. Or, at least, to feel as though it is working semi-independently, from the rest of the Universe.

A layer of abstraction, sustained in the neurons of the mind, as "maps" of the body and its surroundings, could provide this opportunity for "independence", or at least the feeling of it.

Now, we might not know if that is exactly true, yet. But, as I said before: At least it is a little more on the ball, I think, than Integrated Information Theory alone.
 
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