Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[TomG]

Guilters then shift gears saying that Meredith must have belted Knox in the nose during the imagined attack. This would explain why there is not mark visible on Amanda to show this fantasy blood's source. Guilters never explain why, then, Amanda's blood is not found in the murder room from this injury.... and nowhere in the cottage un-mixed with Meredtih's.

Whether Amanda's blood was uniquely identified as her own seems to differ from source to source. I have never come across any article that successfully argues that blood at the crime scene was identified by any other means than DNA. i.e. I don't know what blood group Amanda or Meredith are to this day!

The point that I am trying to make is that if there is no other method used to identify blood other than by DNA analysis you are going to hit problems surely, since it has been argued that saliva for instance is a rich source of DNA. It seems to me it is impossible to identify a blood source uniquely attributed to Amanda by DNA since the whole house would have been contaminated with her DNA with no crime having been committed.

Do other tests exist to identify blood at a crime scene other than by DNA analysis to uniquely identify just who is who?

Hoots!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

at least the prosecution should provide a timeline

There aren't any times in your time line.

I disagree with your post. The prosecution assembled a jumble of supposedly incriminating things that don't fit together. That is the whole point. What time was the attack? 9.00 p.m? No. They were at home then. 10.00 p.m? They were in the piazza under the gaze of Toto. And she didn't scream for another hour. 11.00 p.m. No. Toto and the tow truck. Midnight? Yes, that's it! Everything fits! Except Meredith needs to be doing things she was not doing between 9 and 12, including undressing, going to bed, using her phone, digesting food, making notes for class, sleeping or anything. Curiously, none of these things is a problem if Rudy acted alone which is also what the forensics say.

Have another go.

anglolawyer,

I agree, and specifying when they were supposedly clothed and when they were supposedly naked is a good exercise also. At what point after the attack did Amanda and Raffaele supposedly leave the flat? Moreover, IIUC from one of the tweets Crini even demurred about providing a TOD. Meredith was attacked at a particular time and died at a particular time. It is just not right for the prosecution to say in effect, "Maybe it was early, maybe it was late," and be done with it. For one thing it is much harder to provide an alibi under such circumstances.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

just when I thought it could not possibly be more biased

Hans is telling me that the German edition of the BBC3 "documentary" is 20 minutes longer and includes a long interview with Charles Mudede and also plays on the racist angle to the max. It also includes an interview with Rudy"s shrink at prison who says Rudy's changing stories is a sign he is innocent.

 

[Dan O.]

I was disturbed by the mention of the 5:32 am interaction on BBC 4. So what? If he had killed Meredith why would being up for a little while matter?

There is a difference in the timeline of what Raffaele thinks he did that night and what what time he was actually doing it. Raffaele stayed half up for part of that night reviewing songs or videos downloaded earlier. He eventually stumbled on a file that crashed his player several times and opened the file in QuickTime. This interruption woke him up enough to realize it was getting late and he should go to bed. He created a playlist of the files he just reviewed, checked his phone and received the good-night text from his dad at 23:41 and went to bed. 20 minutes later the screen saver on his MacBook Pro came on for the rest of the night.

The difference is that his phone was in a dead spot and that text didn't come in until he picked it up at 06:02 in the morning. This is why Raffaele sleeps in late after Amanda gets up and goes back to the cottage.

 

[anglolawyer]

anglolawyer,

I agree, and specifying when they were supposedly clothed and when they were supposedly naked is a good exercise also. At what point after the attack did Amanda and Raffaele supposedly leave the flat? Moreover, IIUC from one of the tweets Crini even demurred about providing a TOD. Meredith was attacked at a particular time and died at a particular time. It is just not right for the prosecution to say in effect, "Maybe it was early, maybe it was late," and be done with it. For one thing it is much harder to provide an alibi under such circumstances.

The Italians can retreat behind their legalistic bull **** (and that is what it is) as exemplified by Mach's sophistry here, with his claim that it doesn't matter how ridiculous Toto's evidence is, it proves they weren't at home. I have no idea how you argue against this stuff.

 

[Briars]

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?[/QUOTE

Knock out punch.

This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it. The quote attached did not include what I had wanted to. It was Dan saying something about why I was so critical of Sollecito and his visit to the grave but not of Rudy murdering Meredith. Perfect example of of Dan imagining what I thought about Rudy when he doesn't have a clue. Example of the type of posts that are common here applauded here even though they are completely irrelevant.

 

[Desert Fox]

"Mixed blood" refers to the claim that Amanda's blood was mixed with Meredith's blood in five places in the cottage, outside of the murder room.

I believe it was claimed by Mignini during the 2009 trial. Whether that be true or not, Judge Massei's motivations report emanating from that trial, released in 2010, is clear - he says that Amanda's "biological material" is mixed with Meredith's blood in those locations.

If there had been verified mixed blood from the two, then I would be a guilter.

No one of any credential whatsoever these days claims "mixed blood". The Machine/Harry Rag includes this factoid in his comments-bombs to comments sections of articles.

Guilters used to make up other factoids about Amanda, to explain how her blood got at the scene... which (with the exception of the bathroom faucet) none was found. Guilters talk about the "hickey" on Knox's neck being a source for this blood-letting on her part. Knox was photographed upon her arrest on Nov 6, and there is a faded spot there on her neck, and the police photograph has an endorsement on it saying that it was in some sort of false colour, so that the mark would be visible. If this had been a source of blood 4 1/2 days previous, the mark would not be in that condition.

Guilters then shift gears saying that Meredith must have belted Knox in the nose during the imagined attack. This would explain why there is not mark visible on Amanda to show this fantasy blood's source. Guilters never explain why, then, Amanda's blood is not found in the murder room from this injury.... and nowhere in the cottage un-mixed with Meredtih's.

It's a factoid that did not survive even the first convicting judge's motivation's report.

Further to this, Judge Massei never explains why it would be forensicly interesting only to find "biological material" (hair, dried skin sluffed off....) Massei says that the material found in the bathroom from Knox must be there from the action of her cleaning Meredith's blood off of herself.

That is simply a ludicrous claim, as ludicrous as the "mixed blood" even Massei says is not there!

It's that part that leads some, me included, to believe that Massei wrote his motivations report so that the verdict it was supposed to support would be overturned. Otherwise I have no explanation for why a seemingly compis and mentis judge would find it unusual to find biological material of one of the cottage's occupants at the cottage they lived in - particularly in the bathroom she and the victim shared!

Mixed-blood: game over... I'm a guilter and I would be making guilt-like assertions here simply to bait innocenters. But the notion of mixed-blood died with Massei.

That Andrea Vogt would have this as part of her BBC3 documentary shows where her biases lie.

There was a female poster who posted that menstrual blood in the bathroom is not that uncommon. As such, looking with a careful enough comb, you very well might find "Mixed Blood"

 

[Grinder]

This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it.

Sort of out of context, no?

It is strange how Briars attacks Raffaele for visiting Meredith's grave but he never attacks Rudy Guede the man who put Meredith in her grave.

Knock out punch.

ETA - you know Briars I doubt you can find one post of mine where I say anything about loving Rudy or persecuting innocents or hating the kids.

I would like you to explain what the cops knew before Amanda gave her statement that would allow them to know what she had told was correct.

What makes anyone here a light weight compared to the PGP sites?

Instead of talking about horseradish or turnip juice why don't respond to the quote I provided showing that a wide range of substances light up luminol.

Why don't you admit that having feet close to the size of Amanda that were found in a substance that was not identified as anything much less blood isn't really evidence of anything.

Now that the TOD has been moved to an earlier time by the prosecution do you still want to argue that Nara heard a scream because you can hear dogs in the valley?

Why don't you provide proof that they searched Patrick's and tested his knives or admit that it is very odd that they didn't do so?

 

[Desert Fox]

This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it.

If you read a bit about the lone predator, Rudy ticks many of the boxes.
He could just as easily be white or black, it does not really matter.
His DNA is inside of her and there are bloody fingerprints of his.
He also does have a record of violent activities including brandishing a knife.

A link was provided a few pages back to a study where serial rapists often start as serial burglars.

 

[anglolawyer]

Sort of out of context, no?

I can't get over being called a lightweight by Briars! Briars, you choose to moralise about Raffaele visiting her grave and Welshman made a crushing and well-observed moral point back at you. You never condemn Guede. How do you see his role? As a patsy? Or a peacemaker? What? Stick your neck out and tell us.

 

[RoseMontague]

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?[/QUOTE


This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it. The quote attached did not include what I had wanted to. It was Dan saying something about why I was so critical of Sollecito and his visit to the grave but not of Rudy murdering Meredith. Perfect example of of Dan imagining what I thought about Rudy when he doesn't have a clue. Example of the type of posts that are common here applauded here even though they are completely irrelevant.

I think you are confused.

 

[Planigale]

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?[/QUOTE


This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights. Discussion is shut down with comments like why do you hate Raffaelle and Amanda? Why do you want to persecute innocents? Why do you love Rudy? You believe this because ...It usually only takes a few posts for this tired group strategy to show up. Keeps the club feeling secure I get it. The quote attached did not include what I had wanted to. It was Dan saying something about why I was so critical of Sollecito and his visit to the grave but not of Rudy murdering Meredith. Perfect example of of Dan imagining what I thought about Rudy when he doesn't have a clue. Example of the type of posts that are common here applauded here even though they are completely irrelevant.

I am happy to accept I am a light weight, I suspect anglolawyer is happy to accept he is a light weight; he is no criminal defence barrister. We still are able to prove prosecution arguements are a fallacy. What do you think would happen if the heavy weights like Prof. Gill or a serious criminal advocate were engagedin this discussion?

 

[anglolawyer]

I am happy to accept I am a light weight, I suspect anglolawyer is happy to accept he is a light weight; he is no criminal defence barrister. We still are able to prove prosecution arguements are a fallacy. What do you think would happen if the heavy weights like Prof. Gill or a serious criminal advocate were engagedin this discussion?

I say, steady on!

 

[Strozzi]

-

The attack was between 9:10 - 9:30 while Rudy was at Raffaele's house making sure the screensaver didn't come on, after he had hooked up with them at Raffaele's house to tell them that Meredith had just come home and they then immediately ran over to kill her, but not before they put on gloves and booties. Raffaele struggled with Meredith while Amanda watched until he had knocked her down and she was dazed. Amanda then took over and lifted her head up by her hair and stabbed her repeatedly in the neck from behind,

d. -

You left out an important part. Stefanoni tested the stain on the pillow found under Meredith's hips. Stefanoni confirms it is semen and that it is an exact match to Amanda. The defense challenged how that could be but Nencini decided that even if it is not reliable scientifically, it fits osmotically. Case closed!

 

[Grinder]

I am happy to accept I am a light weight, I suspect anglolawyer is happy to accept he is a light weight; he is no criminal defence barrister. We still are able to prove prosecution arguements are a fallacy. What do you think would happen if the heavy weights like Prof. Gill or a serious criminal advocate were engagedin this discussion?

My guess there would be an unfathomable spike in suicides among professional advocates.

 

[AmyStrange]

Abracadabra

-

You left out an important part. Stefanoni tested the stain on the pillow found under Meredith's hips. Stefanoni confirms it is semen and that it is an exact match to Amanda. Case closed

-

Now that's what I call some real forensic magic,

d

-

 

[Grinder]

Briars,

Is this what Raf told the cops?

Raffaele had spent the night at his own house on the other side of the city with his girlfriend, Meredith's American flatmate Amanda Knox, 22.

He said: "It was a normal night. Meredith had gone out with one of her English friends and Amanda and I went to party with one of my friends.

"The next day, around lunchtime, Amanda went back to their apartment to have a shower.

 

[Strozzi]

My guess there would be an unfathomable spike in suicides among professional advocates.

Only if they are eating Rudy's famous kabobs!

 

[carlofab]

I’m new here and don’t know if Amanda Knox’s blog exchange with Jack Slacker has been discussed here. I can post the complete exchange if not. But here is what she says about mixed blood:

Amanda Knox:

The day after the murder I had a hickey on my neck, NOT a scratch. I was not hiding my neck, and no one noted a scratch in the days leading up to my arrest. It was only months later that Laura Mezzetti came forward to suggest the hickey had been a scratch, because her memory had been tainted by the prosecution’s publicity of the investigation. I did NOT have a ripped ear. I had pierced my ears multiple times in late October, so I was still caring/cleaning the piercings, but I never made the excuse that a piercing had been ripped.

Because I lived in the house and made regular use of its facilities, my DNA was already there in the bathroom, the hallway between my room and the bathroom, and all common rooms. The trace of Meredith’s and my DNA in Filomena’s room was not a footprint and tested negative for blood. It is irrelevant.

Those who present evidence must guarantee the reliability of that evidence. Reliability is assured when protocol is followed, because contamination is a legitimate concern when processing DNA evidence. The investigators not only broke protocol by collecting evidence with dirty gloves, but the choice to collect further DNA evidence after the crime scene had been disturbed by further entrances by non-forensic investigators was absolutely illogical, unacceptable, and desperate.

Meredith’s DNA could never be determined to be on the kitchen knife. The prosecution’s very own equipment told them the LCN DNA was not a reliable trace given the equipment available. Advances in technology now cannot account for the technology of the time. The prosecution never could have asserted that Meredith’s DNA was on that knife, and by doing so they committed a desperate act of perjury that was only uncovered when the defense was finally granted access to certain amounts of the documentation, which the prosecution desperately tried to hide. Furthermore, the kitchen knife does not correspond with Meredith’s stab wounds, nor the bloody imprint of the knife on the bed sheet, and it never left Raffaele’s apartment because I didn’t carry his kitchen knife with me EVER.

The footprint in blood on the bathmat is not Raffaele’s. The measurements and qualities of the footprint correspond with Rudy Guede’s foeet and not Raffaele’s, particularly the placement of the toes. This desperate attempt by the prosecution to attribute SOMETHING to Raffaele resembles their attempt to assign Rudy Guede’s shoe print to Raffaele, which was also proven wrong. Similarly, the partial footprint which the investigators attribute to a female-sized foot has been proven to be simply a partial footprint from Rudy Guede’s same shoe — it corresponds with the markings. Again, the investigators are desperately trying to force the evidence against Rudy Guede on Raffaele and me.

All luminol footprints attributed to Raffaele and me tested negative for blood and were found to have Meredith’s and my DNA, which means that, had they been made in blood, they would have tested positive (tests for blood are even more sensitive than tests for DNA). Furthermore, where would we have picked Meredith’s blood up with our feet if not in Meredith’s bedroom? But there are no traces of our DNA or hand prints or footprints in Meredith’s blood.

 

[Planigale]

I say, steady on!

Apologies. To cross thread a metaphor, I feel we are like the destroyers crippling the Bismark. Now the heavy weights are beginning to close in. It is evident serious forensic scientists are concerned that this case is putting their profession into disrepute. I think we will see increasingly heavy weights coming into the dispute and sinking the prosecutions case.