Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

Faint, not feint, John.

Oooops yes! Total brain frieze there (see what I did just then? )

 

[toto]

I have a culture question for all the Brits. Are any American TV shows aired over there? We don't see many British shows. Sometimes they repackage a UK series. The Office for example. One of the most popular American tv shows ever (All in the Family) was a repackaged British show. But those are few. And we never seem to see any "original" cast British series. But Downtown Abbey and Sherlock are hugely popular on PBS in the US now.

Any way, I'm curious.

All the best: Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Seinfeld, Curb your enthusiasm, just to name the ones I like, plus fantastic series like Game of Thrones, Dexter, 24 etc etc.

 

[toto]

"The Crucible"? Complete work of fiction. Could never happen.

No! It's a great play.

 

[kwill]

"The Crucible"? Complete work of fiction. Could never happen.

Interesting how that play is relevant to this case.

Miller wrote the play during the brief ascendancy of Senator Joseph McCarthy, a demagogue whose vitriolic anti-Communism proved the spark needed to propel the United States into a dramatic and fractious anti-Communist fervor during these first tense years of the Cold War with the Soviet Union. Led by McCarthy, special congressional committees conducted highly controversial investigations intended to root out Communist sympathizers in the United States.

As with the alleged witches of Salem, suspected Communists were encouraged to confess and to identify other Red sympathizers as means of escaping punishment. The policy resulted in a whirlwind of accusations. As people began to realize that they might be condemned as Communists regardless of their innocence, many “cooperated,” attempting to save themselves through false confessions, creating the image that the United States was overrun with Communists and perpetuating the hysteria.

The liberal entertainment industry, in which Miller worked, was one of the chief targets of these “witch hunts,” as their opponents termed them. Some cooperated; others, like Miller, refused to give in to questioning. Those who were revealed, falsely or legitimately, as Communists, and those who refused to incriminate their friends, saw their careers suffer, as they were blacklisted from potential jobs for many years afterward.

At the time of its first performance, in January of 1953, critics and cast alike perceived The Crucible as a direct attack on McCarthyism (the policy of sniffing out Communists).

Unknown to the public at the time was that the famous & deeply respected head of the FBI was in fact a lawless, vindictive, nutcase who routinely had his agents fabricate evidence against people he found "subversive."

The problem is just like the one in Perugia: too much authority vested in too few people with no accountability to anybody.

 

[Grinder]

Old footprints in blood? Really? Spots of old blood perhaps from old tenants but whole prints a possibility?? What are the odds of old bloody prints or feet immersed in some rare substance like horseradish ? Do luminol whole prints turn up often in crime scenes? Do cops just say bloody soles from two individuals is common? . Yes they appear to be coming out of the bloody bedroom but then again we cannot rule out some rare juice. The bath mat was used to wipe there was blood on the underside. The towels could have been used to wipe other prints in the room. Do not accuse me of innuendo when you buy the bathmat scoot and the footprints outside the door..

Not spots but the prints from a very diluted water and blood mixture from the shower. I've washed off a skinned knee and had a bloody nose in the shower. I'm sure that if luminol had been used where I walked my prints would have lit up. Since the PLE didn't establish that the prints were in blood or matched Amanda's feet it really isn't evidence anyway. The luminol hit and the TMB miss does allow for a very diluted water and blood mixture.

It could also be rust in the shower water after it wasn't used for a few months.

Many juices and cleaning substances are picked up by luminol and the ICSI walked around the bloody floors without much concern.

A wide range of domestic and industrial substances that might be mistaken for haemoglobin in the forensic luminol test
for blood were examined. The substances studied were in the categories of vegetable or fruit pulps and juices; domestic and
commercial oils; cleaning agents; an insecticide; and various glues, paints and varnishes. A significant number of substances in each category gave luminescence intensities that were comparable with the intensities of undiluted haemoglobin, when sprayed with the
standard forensic solution containing aqueous alkaline luminol and sodium perborate.​

Where are the bloody prints in the bedroom? There is no evidence of a cleanup, only the missing pieces needed for your theory.

Oh and why were there spots all over the booties of the technicians (mis)applying the luminol?

 

[acbytesla]

All the best: Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Seinfeld, Curb your enthusiasm, just to name the ones I like, plus fantastic series like Game of Thrones, Dexter, 24 etc etc.

The Big Bang Theory? I think that is the most popular sitcom in the US today taking over for Two and a Half Men as the most popular generating the most ad revenue.

 

[Dan O.]

No, it was the bloodied one. I've always thought that the most likely explanation for the luminol prints (in fact I can't really see how she could've avoided leaving prints after stepping on the bloody mat).

That was my opinion until I looked closely at the print at marker 2 in the hall. Here one of Rudy's bloody shoe prints landed on top of the invisible foot print. The area was scrubbed by the forensics goons to collect every visible trace of the bloody print but this had no effect on the underlying footprint. From this I conclude that the bare footprints are old and have been through many moppings so what's left some metal ion ( most likely iron from the dripping radiators ) chemically bonded to the floor tiles.

 

[Bill Williams]

I disagree with your opinion.

One can take all kinds of inferences from the presenters comments and the programmes content, for example there was criticism of the BBC 3 TV programme for not asking or involving Raffaele, Amanda and or the counsel, yet in the BBC 4 radio programme Amanda’s lawyer didn’t want to speak on or off the record.

You can focus on any time slot of the programme and state a conclusion is pro innocence or pro guilt, overall for me I believe this programme was impartial.

I am content for anyone to click on the link and listen, it is not necessary for me to tell people what their conclusions should be they can make up their own minds.

CoulsdonUK - you have consistently refused to express any opinion on any element of this crime, yet state that the BBC3 documentary was "impartial".

Do you then agree that if impartial, that Meredith and Rudy Guede were having a consensual sexual relationship? If not, how do you explain Guede's genetic material inside her?

You see, no one believes that Meredith and Rudy Guede had a consensual relationship, but it is a fact that his DNA was found in her vagina.

For me this shows just how biased the BBC3 program was. And this bias is known - all you have to do is read Andrea Vogt, especially her claim that the anonymous guilt-Wiki by Edward McCall is a prime source to understand this crime.

Not John Douglas, not Ron Hendry, not Hellmann's court, not every forensic's lab outside of Stefanoni's, including the RIS Carabineiri.... but Edward McCall's guilt-wiki. Not the Massei court who put Guede as the sexual aggressor against Meredith. Now BBC3 would have you believe he's almost an innocent bystander.

Who is Edward McCall? Is he impartial or biased? There's no way to tell.

Yet BBC3 just put out something you state is impartial.

If so, do you agree that Meredith and Rudy had a consensual sexual relationship?

 

[RoseMontague]

That was my opinion until I looked closely at the print at marker 2 in the hall. Here one of Rudy's bloody shoe prints landed on top of the invisible foot print. The area was scrubbed by the forensics goons to collect every visible trace of the bloody print but this had no effect on the underlying footprint. From this I conclude that the bare footprints are old and have been through many moppings so what's left some metal ion ( most likely iron from the dripping radiators ) chemically bonded to the floor tiles.

Yep.

 

[anglolawyer]

No! It's a great play.

Irony, irony, everywhere irony. I have gotten (note US usage) to know Diocletus a little and I kinda (ditto) think he was making a subtle point.

Define 'irony'. Impossible. Same with 'torque'.

 

[Briars]

No, it was the bloodied one. I've always thought that the most likely explanation for the luminol prints (in fact I can't really see how she could've avoided leaving prints after stepping on the bloody mat).

There were smaller bloodstains on the underside. Amanda admitted seeing the larger stain so that was the side she shuffled on? So with your theory she needed to have placed her entire foot on the large bloody print. Just like an ink pad stamp , she must have fit her entire foot inside the print in order to transfer whole prints in the hall? Quite the theory , surprising that the mat print wouldn't blur with the effort of her wet foot twisting and turning as she scooted down the hall. Amanda must have been.thinking along the same lines, I believe the mat story was told to Mignini on the 17th a day before investigators were expected to test with luminol.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks for the additional information and images. But doesn't it all essentially correspond with what I was saying? I slightly simplified the situation for sure, but that was purely in order to highlight the important messages of my post: that a) the Guede shoe prints did not lead "out of" the front door, that b) in fact, they tended to indicate that Guede stopped short of the door on this occasion, and c) the fact that the prints faded out to nothing mean that nobody can tell whether or not Guede returned back to Meredith's room after this journey towards the front door (and that the "pausing" evidence suggests that he might indeed have turned back).

The main difference between your statement and mine is that you say the evidence suggests that he might have turned back and I say that the evidence conclusively showed that he did turn back from the door. We both agree that there is no evidence showing where the trail leads after the last marker but while you say the prints faded to nothing, I maintain that there is still sufficient blood on Rudy's shoe to leave more tracts but these were not seen or recognized.

The photographs we have of the floor are not sufficiently detailed to show the remaining prints and the luminol survey excluded everything that didn't look like a bare footprint as evidenced by the lack of luminol photos of the remains of the known bloody shoe prints.

 

[Briars]

Once again in English, please?

In the absence of detective work we have the grammar police. Good for you contribute what you can!

 

[Dan O.]

I believe the mat story was told to Mignini on the 17th a day before investigators were expected to test with luminol.

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?

 

[Diocletus]

That was my opinion until I looked closely at the print at marker 2 in the hall. Here one of Rudy's bloody shoe prints landed on top of the invisible foot print. The area was scrubbed by the forensics goons to collect every visible trace of the bloody print but this had no effect on the underlying footprint. From this I conclude that the bare footprints are old and have been through many moppings so what's left some metal ion ( most likely iron from the dripping radiators ) chemically bonded to the floor tiles.

So those footprints could still be there if luminol is reapplied. Hmm.

 

[kwill]

Define 'irony'. Impossible.

I liked Mr. Darcy's way of describing it (as practiced by Elizabeth Bennett).

I have had the pleasure of your acquaintance long enough to know that you find great enjoyment in occasionally professing opinions which in fact are not your own

Not a definition, exactly, but a fairly good description.

 

[Briars]

Do you have evidence that the Luminol testing was planned and was known to the defense?

It's what I remember reading but will have to try to locate when the hockey is over.

 

[toto]

Irony, irony, everywhere irony. I have gotten (note US usage) to know Diocletus a little and I kinda (ditto) think he was making a subtle point.

Define 'irony'. Impossible. Same with 'torque'.

Yes, I was agreeing with him ironically: obviously the witch hunt can be compared to some extent to the Meredith Kercher murder trial, though I hope PGP people would not identify Amanda too readily with Abigail. The second point was unironic when I said it was a great play. I really ought to use these emoticons more often.

 

[toto]

The Big Bang Theory? I think that is the most popular sitcom in the US today taking over for Two and a Half Men as the most popular generating the most ad revenue.

That's on as well. I think I am just getting old, but when I have found it by chance I have enjoyed it.

 

[katy_did]

That was my opinion until I looked closely at the print at marker 2 in the hall. Here one of Rudy's bloody shoe prints landed on top of the invisible foot print. The area was scrubbed by the forensics goons to collect every visible trace of the bloody print but this had no effect on the underlying footprint. From this I conclude that the bare footprints are old and have been through many moppings so what's left some metal ion ( most likely iron from the dripping radiators ) chemically bonded to the floor tiles.

If I'm understanding you rightly here, you're saying that if the prints were left in diluted blood, they should have been affected by the forensics goons wiping away Rudy's shoe print? You could be right. Still, given that luminol is used for the specific purpose of detecting wiped away or diluted blood (and apparently works better on those than on undiluted blood) I wonder whether we would expect the actions of the forensic goons to have had much or any effect on the underlying print anyway, especially given that these prints were already dry. It's not as if the goons were cleaning the floor with the gift-wrapped mop or anything (at least not as far as I've seen, but maybe that comes later in the video).

What makes me lean towards the bathmat hypothesis is how closely the prints seem to match Amanda's actions that morning - and the fact that if she's telling the truth, I can't see how she could possibly not have left prints - and the lack of any other material they could realistically have been made in. I'd dismiss fruit juice or wine as very unlikely (it would be different if the luminol reaction just showed blobs, as in Filomena's room, but entire footprints made in wine seems less likely...!). So that leaves us basically with some luminol-reactive substance mixed with water: bleach would be the obvious alternative, but that's ruled out by the timing, so as I see it the only other options are diluted blood or, as you say, some kind of metal substance in the water. In the latter case I'd expect there to be more prints than there turned out to be.