Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Matthew Best]

In any case, you have no idea what my expectations are. Especially those regarding your input to the debate

I think I do.

 

[Desert Fox]

I have a culture question for all the Brits. Are any American TV shows aired over there? We don't see many British shows. Sometimes they repackage a UK series. The Office for example. One of the most popular American tv shows ever (All in the Family) was a repackaged British show. But those are few. And we never seem to see any "original" cast British series. But Downtown Abbey and Sherlock are hugely popular on PBS in the US now.

A fair number of PBS NOVA episodes are repacked BBC Horizon episodes

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree with all of that.

And neither have I ...but I remain hopeful. Particularly with Lion King and a couple of others. I don't see them as hard core guilters. They may be on their side of the fence at the moment, but I'm hopeful, (maybe irrationally) that they will change their mind. I also don't expect the person I actually persuade to have a great online epiphany and switch sides. I expect them to go away, knowing that they were probably mistaken.

The biggest problem with my logic Anglo, is that when people actually take a public stance on an issue, it is almost impossible to for them to change sides publicly or at all. Just like in Italy. The embarrassment is way too large.

Which is one of the most fascinating things about the whole case and a very large part of the reason (maybe all of it) why there still is a case to talk about.

 

[anglolawyer]

I've heard..didn't Shakespeare come from England?

But I never knew if you guys read anything written in American English. I thought just maybe you require a Google translator for that.

I have said several times before, I speak fluent American. It's my second language as a matter of fact. Catch 22 was a huge favourite and there was a time when my brother and I would reel off whole chunks of it laughing until our sides split.

 

[Desert Fox]

Which is one of the most fascinating things about the whole case and a very large part of the reason (maybe all of it) why there still is a case to talk about.

Many jurors in the Norfolk 4 case changed sides although as far as I can tell the city of Norfolk Virginia still argues that they are guilty

 

[anglolawyer]

Many jurors in the Norfolk 4 case changed sides although as far as I can tell the city of Norfolk Virginia still argues that they are guilty

I guess jurors have an out, don't they? They can always consider the material that was withheld from them or new evidence. They aren't as invested. But the ability to admit error is a major virtue and one this place encourages by being relentlessly tough on it.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes. We get tons of US shows over here. Of all genres. In addition, one can watch two US networks' main evening news programmes (ABC and CBS I think), plus things like the Tonight Show etc.

In fact, the UK has one of the richest and most cosmopolitan TV environments in the world. We are very lucky in that regard. Even PBS is carried here. We get UK flavours of things like the Discovery Channel, National Geographic Channel and the History Channel, as well as similar UK-originated channels that often buy in US programming. We get French and Russian news services, Indian news and dramas, Arabic news and dramas, various African nation programmes, Chinese programming, and plenty of Australasian stuff of course.

One thing that the UK has always been good at is not being insular. Which is ironic, of course, on account of it being a rather small island (well, set of islands). In my view, the educated section of the UK public probably has the most cosmopolitan and globally-informed outlook in the world. It's perhaps one of the reasons why some of us are interested in a court case in Italy, involving Italian and US defendants (although of course the British victim is also a significant factor).

I regret and wished they showed a few more British shows in the US. I was always a big fan of Monty Python, A Fish called Wanda and many other British movies. I love John Oliver, the British ex pat who has been a regular on Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show". I'm always interested in cross cultural appeal. What is popular here in the States that you never pick up on over there and vice versa. I made the comment to Anglo about "Catch 22, explaining the meaning of the term..not that I didn't think he knew ..just that I'm never sure if something who's origin is American, actually crosses the great cultural divide..(The Atlantic Ocean) and is popular in the UK.

For example, We celebrate the 4th of July over here. I've heard it's not celebrated over there. I mean, what's up with that? I always think of the classics as Shakespeare, Kipling, Yeats, Shelley, Browning. Not sure if you Brits might actually look down your noses at American literature. That while Heller, Hemingway, Twain Steinbeck and Edgar Allen Poe are considered classics in the US. That just maybe, the Brits might see prose written by these Yanks as naturally inferior and not really in the native tongue. Basically, I wonder if you think they are hacks and not right for proper human consumption?

 

[acbytesla]

Which is one of the most fascinating things about the whole case and a very large part of the reason (maybe all of it) why there still is a case to talk about.

That in a nutshell is all this is about.

First it was the police and Mignini's mistake, then it was Perugia's mistake, then it became all of Italy's mistake. The press in Italy is so lock step behind the court system, that very little dissent is actually published and what little there is, isn't that effective because journalists are always concerned about retribution from the courts. So the general public never really got anything but smear. Now they are sold.

You would think that the courts however would be more responsible, but I'm afraid this has turned into some kind of national pride validating jurisprudence in Italy.

A lot of people have been taking direct aim ridiculing Italy about their legal system and their technological and professional prowess in this case. And instead of being open and saying.."this is wrong, a mistake was made", they have dug their heels in and are protecting their institutions and "the face of Italy" instead of the integrity of justice.

 

[acbytesla]

I have said several times before, I speak fluent American. It's my second language as a matter of fact. Catch 22 was a huge favourite and there was a time when my brother and I would reel off whole chunks of it laughing until our sides split.

It was a big favorite of mine.. 30..no 40 years ago. I only remember it generally. Now, might be a good time to read it again. I forgot how good it was.

 

[Samson]

I regret and wished they showed a few more British shows in the US. I was always a big fan of Monty Python, A Fish called Wanda and many other British movies. I love John Oliver, the British ex pat who has been a regular on Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show". I'm always interested in cross cultural appeal. What is popular here in the States that you never pick up on over there and vice versa. I made the comment to Anglo about "Catch 22, explaining the meaning of the term..not that I didn't think he knew ..just that I'm never sure if something who's origin is American, actually crosses the great cultural divide..(The Atlantic Ocean) and is popular in the UK.

For example, We celebrate the 4th of July over here. I've heard it's not celebrated over there. I mean, what's up with that? I always think of the classics as Shakespeare, Kipling, Yeats, Shelley, Browning. Not sure if you Brits might actually look down your noses at American literature. That while Heller, Hemingway, Twain Steinbeck and Edgar Allen Poe are considered classics in the US. That just maybe, the Brits might see prose written by these Yanks as naturally inferior and not really in the native tongue. Basically, I wonder if you think they are hacks and not right for proper human consumption?

No Acbytesla, two great novelists and travel writers are Jonathan Raban and Paul Theroux, one from each country. They review each other's books with admiration. From the colonies it would never cross my mind to see it as a cultural contest for greater excellence.
eta, I think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest Amanda and Meredith were intrigued by their MILDLY different cultures, not threatened.

 

[Desert Fox]

That in a nutshell is all this is about.

First it was the police and Mignini's mistake, then it was Perugia's mistake, then it became all of Italy's mistake. The press in Italy is so lock step behind the court system, that very little dissent is actually published and what little there is, isn't that effective because journalists are always concerned about retribution from the courts. So the general public never really got anything but smear. Now they are sold.

You would think that the courts however would be more responsible, but I'm afraid this has turned into some kind of national pride validating jurisprudence in Italy.

A lot of people have been taking direct aim ridiculing Italy about their legal system and their technological and professional prowess in this case. And instead of being open and saying.."this is wrong, a mistake was made", they have dug their heels in and are protecting their institutions and "the face of Italy" instead of the integrity of justice.

You also get some Europeans who see it as Americans targeting the whole European legal system even though the Italian system is a weird hybrid system.

 

[Strozzi]

The burglarly is doable, even Judge Massei admits that. What I disagree with Massei about is that the impossible conditions he puts on to Rudy do not exist, namely that he would not have gone up and down three times. The Channel 5 demonstration shows he can open the shutters quite easily... etc.

There is no burglary in Filomena's room, because it is a room of transit, in the dark. Taking three or four quick steps as he goes through Filomena's room is not going to leave a forensic trace.

Massei's claim was illogical and false when he wrote in his motivation that Rudy, a semi-pro basketball player, would not exert himself to go up and down several times to break in the window. Basketball players go up and down repeatedly in their sport. It was no effort for Rudy to ascend to tip the shutters open, descend to pick up the rock to throw it like a basketball shot, and ascend again to climb in the window.

Massei fabricated this claim in order to explain away the truth - that Rudy threw the rock through the window to break in.

 

[Paninaro]

I know, I know, the prosecution's case has been thoroughly debunked.

On the internet.

And this is an example of the "experts" they rely on:

"Ron Hendry is a retired Forensic Engineer (aka Accident Reconstructionist) with 28 years of experience at evaluating and reconstructing serious to fatal incidents based on the physical evidence. Mr. Hendry is a degreed Mechanical Engineer who held a Professional Engineering License during his consulting career. His body of work was primarily with regard civil litigation matters. However, his work has required him to interact extensively with police and review their reports, interview witnesses, review autopsy reports, and review statements and depositions of witnesses and experts. Ron has extensive experience in evaluating incidents from scene photos and witness testimony in cases where the physical evidence was no longer around. In several instances, Ron has evaluated injuries of those involved to ascertain how they occurred."

LOL.

And in court, by two judges who not only foundation reasonable doubt, but that the whole case against the two defendants had collapsed.

Once that's been done, you can't put the ketchup back into the bottle, cause that would be lying by definition.

 

[acbytesla]

No Acbytesla, two great novelists and travel writers are Jonathan Raban and Paul Theroux, one from each country. They review each other's books with admiration. From the colonies it would never cross my mind to see it as a cultural contest for greater excellence.

I'm really joking Samson. A little tongue in cheek. Maybe it's my American humor falling flat in the mother land.

I can't imagine anyone even a Limey not thinking that these American writers aren't great. But you never really can be sure that something or someone that is popular and recognized in the US also is in the UK. Assuming so can be arrogant.

It also cracks me up when a Brit is cast in some intrinsically American tv or movie role. For example, Olivia de Havilland in "Gone with the Wind" I only recently discovered that Hugh Laurie on the popular US TV show House was a Brit or even more shocking was finding out that Gary Oldman was too. I've been watching him in countless American movie roles. Both Hugh and Oldman shocked the hell out of me speaking in an entirely different voice than I knew them from their work.

Outside of Renee Zellweiger in Bridget Jones, I can't hardly think of any Yanks doing the reverse.

OK...I've really gone off topic in a big way... Sorry.

 

[Antony]

At the time of the visit he was/still is a defendant in the ongoing trial. It absolutely was a vile intrusion. He barely knew her, his visit strikes me as disrespectful and odd . He visited with a person who writes for the defendants and makes disparaging remarks against the Kerchers. We will never know how they behaved at the grave or what was said thankfully,

Give it a rest, Briars. You only say this because of your irrational belief in Raff's involvement in the murder. There is nothing odd or disrespectful at all in his visit - after all he and Amanda were with Meredith earlier in the day, on the day she was murdered, and his life has been tied up with the tragedy ever since through no action of his own.

Why don't you stick to the facts of the crime? Let me answer that: the facts don't support your agenda. That's why you root around for nasty things to say about the accused.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm really joking Samson. A little tongue in cheek. Maybe it's my American humor falling flat in the mother land.

I can't imagine anyone even a Limey not thinking that these American writers aren't great. But you never really can be sure that something or someone that is popular and recognized in the US also is in the UK. Assuming so can be arrogant.

It also cracks me up when a Brit is cast in some intrinsically American tv or movie role. For example, Olivia de Havilland in "Gone with the Wind" I only recently discovered that Hugh Laurie on the popular US TV show House was a Brit or even more shocking was finding out that Gary Oldman was too. I've been watching him in countless American movie roles. Both Hugh and Oldman shocked the hell out of me speaking in an entirely different voice than I knew them from their work.

Outside of Renee Zellweiger in Bridget Jones, I can't hardly think of any Yanks doing the reverse.

OK...I've really gone off topic in a big way... Sorry.

Too late. You forgot Raymond Chandler Edit: and Steinbeck.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The BBC 4 radio programme was 28:40 minutes in duration the first 13 to 15 minutes it presents the prosecutions’ case the remaining time is the defence case along with Pete Gill comments then a summary.

This radio programme is what I would expect from the BBC, it is impartial presents both sides of the case and leaves the listener to decide.

BBC Radio 4 - Who Killed Meredith Kercher

 

[Samson]

I'm really joking Samson. A little tongue in cheek. Maybe it's my American humor falling flat in the mother land.

I can't imagine anyone even a Limey not thinking that these American writers aren't great. But you never really can be sure that something or someone that is popular and recognized in the US also is in the UK. Assuming so can be arrogant.

It also cracks me up when a Brit is cast in some intrinsically American tv or movie role. For example, Olivia de Havilland in "Gone with the Wind" I only recently discovered that Hugh Laurie on the popular US TV show House was a Brit or even more shocking was finding out that Gary Oldman was too. I've been watching him in countless American movie roles. Both Hugh and Oldman shocked the hell out of me speaking in an entirely different voice than I knew them from their work.

Outside of Renee Zellweiger in Bridget Jones, I can't hardly think of any Yanks doing the reverse.

OK...I've really gone off topic in a big way... Sorry.

But no not off topic, as I laboriously reverted to thread, with an eta, these kids are a microcosm of this cultural debate, this transatlantic thing is a proper use of the forum.

 

[acbytesla]

Too late. You forgot Raymond Chandler and Steinbeck.

I could never forget Steinbeck. Cannery Row, East of Eden, Of Mice and Men. Nobel Laureate. I really liked those books and the movies made from them. A lot. He was actually treated better in Europe than he was in the US. The conservatives in the US always treated him badly because the themes of his books often portrayed the downtrodden.

Maybe some of conservative or Royal Brits didn't take too kindly to Dickens in his day for the same reason.

Chandler, I don't know as well. But I do remember Marlowe and Double Indemnity. But that is it. I'm sure he did others.

 

[Strozzi]

Originally Posted by acbytesla
. . . We celebrate the 4th of July over here. I've heard it's not celebrated over there. I mean, what's up with that? (end of post)

The British Embassy in Washington celebrates U.S. Independence Day. Every year on the 4th of July the British Embassy hangs a humorous sign on their front door saying "Closed due to circumstances beyond our control".