Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I love you man. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I just couldn't afford to go to law school. I probably do this because I miss the challenges that debate gave me in high school and college. I also admit to a certain glee of being able to to metaphorically chop people's neck as well.

But I admit Anglo, I became a salesman and a lot of the skills are the same as debate. But there is a distinction. Winning a debate with a customer never helped me close a sale. In fact, I'm sure it cost me a few. To me, this is about persuasion. Not about debate. Can I persuade someone to change their minds. I think it might be possible with someone like Lion King.

But I could be wrong.
I have a different image. I see this thread as a high plateau where the PGPs are clinging on to the edge by their fingertips. My job is to stamp on them until they fall off. Don't worry, they don't die. There are some ledges far below to break their fall. Called TJMK PMF/PMF. :D

I love you too AC :)

ETA if I could illustrate my point with an example. When you and Dan and LJ go off on those darn cell towers I do not chime in. I read and try to follow. Same with 'hot-wiring' or whatever the heck it is. If Kaosium or Chris or Randy are doing DNA, the same. I know my limits. The person who has made his mind up about guilt without considering the considerable problems posed by the conflicting evidence does not. Or, worse, they do but they are not honest. Your sales patter may overcome that. I haven't seen it work yet though.
 
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Nor me nor most here, but the important point is you don't need to be. Others are, and there are many links that show...

I know, I know, the prosecution's case has been thoroughly debunked.

On the internet.

And this is an example of the "experts" they rely on:

"Ron Hendry is a retired Forensic Engineer (aka Accident Reconstructionist) with 28 years of experience at evaluating and reconstructing serious to fatal incidents based on the physical evidence. Mr. Hendry is a degreed Mechanical Engineer who held a Professional Engineering License during his consulting career. His body of work was primarily with regard civil litigation matters. However, his work has required him to interact extensively with police and review their reports, interview witnesses, review autopsy reports, and review statements and depositions of witnesses and experts. Ron has extensive experience in evaluating incidents from scene photos and witness testimony in cases where the physical evidence was no longer around. In several instances, Ron has evaluated injuries of those involved to ascertain how they occurred."

LOL.
 
But why not post a timeline? My opinion is that it cannot be done from a guilt perspective... well, all except for the one where Rudy Guede alone is guilty.

The burglarly is doable, even Judge Massei admits that. What I disagree with Massei about is that the impossible conditions he puts on to Rudy do not exist, namely that he would not have gone up and down three times. The Channel 5 demonstration shows he can open the shutters quite easily... etc.

There is no burglary in Filomena's room, because it is a room of transit, in the dark. Taking three or four quick steps as he goes through Filomena's room is not going to leave a forensic trace.

Why not provide a timeline.... oh I see, it's you opinion you don't need one. Ok, you're allowed an opinion.

Except you define it as "bullying" to be asked for one.

I am not sure if the adrenaline factor has been explored in the break in. This makes possible what is normally not, and easy what is difficult. Added to this are the previous successes without expected adverse consequences. One of the disappointing aspects of BBC3 was the notion the throw was difficult from below. It was clearly an adrenaline fuelled horizontal heave, velocity to drive deeply the glass shard into hardwood. Rudy needed cash, and had enough local knowledge to assess its likely availability.
I might write a motivations report one day.
 
As I recall, it was Major Major Major Major and his thing was never to admit anyone to see him in his office unless he had gone out. His sergeant was under strict instructions not to let anyone in to see him unless he was out. He told visitors to come back later when the Major was in. Is your point that whatever they do they are wrong? Caring too much, caring too little etc. Like Major Major Major Major's visitors?

My point was it's a Catch 22.

Major Major, is the name that everyone remembers. I could have said Yossarian, the main protagonist of the book, but somehow most people don't immediately associate that name with "Catch 22". But everyone (almost) immediately recognize "Major Major" from the book.

The term"Catch 22" was used to explain why any pilot requesting mental evaluation for insanity—hoping to be found not sane enough to fly and thereby escape dangerous missions—demonstrates his own sanity in making the request and thus cannot be declared insane.

The term Catch 22 is recognized by pretty much everyone (at least in the US, I can't say whether the term has as much weight in the UK) as a can't win situation. Sort of like everything about Amanda and Raffaele with the guilters.
 
I know, I know, the prosecution's case has been thoroughly debunked.

On the internet.

And this is an example of the "experts" they rely on:

"Ron Hendry is a retired Forensic Engineer (aka Accident Reconstructionist) with 28 years of experience at evaluating and reconstructing serious to fatal incidents based on the physical evidence. Mr. Hendry is a degreed Mechanical Engineer who held a Professional Engineering License during his consulting career. His body of work was primarily with regard civil litigation matters. However, his work has required him to interact extensively with police and review their reports, interview witnesses, review autopsy reports, and review statements and depositions of witnesses and experts. Ron has extensive experience in evaluating incidents from scene photos and witness testimony in cases where the physical evidence was no longer around. In several instances, Ron has evaluated injuries of those involved to ascertain how they occurred."

LOL.
LOL indeed. Is there any chance that you might one day take on Hendry's actual analysis and tell us where he went wrong? I didn't think so.
 
This kind of post won't help stop the echo chamber...

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I know, I know, the prosecution's case has been thoroughly debunked.

On the internet.

And this is an example of the "experts" they rely on:

"Ron Hendry is a retired Forensic Engineer (aka Accident Reconstructionist) with 28 years of experience at evaluating and reconstructing serious to fatal incidents based on the physical evidence. Mr. Hendry is a degreed Mechanical Engineer who held a Professional Engineering License during his consulting career. His body of work was primarily with regard civil litigation matters. However, his work has required him to interact extensively with police and review their reports, interview witnesses, review autopsy reports, and review statements and depositions of witnesses and experts. Ron has extensive experience in evaluating incidents from scene photos and witness testimony in cases where the physical evidence was no longer around. In several instances, Ron has evaluated injuries of those involved to ascertain how they occurred."

LOL.
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Now really, how does this kind of post help crack through the echo chamber that has control of this thread?

To me, this is just as bad as continuously calling for a timeline, timeline, which really is no less of an opinion, in my opinion, then the opinion above.

If you really want to stop this echo chamber, you really need a lot better stuff than this... unless all you really want to do is bully people by making fun of them?

d

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My point was it's a Catch 22.

Major Major, is the name that everyone remembers. I could have said Yossarian, the main protagonist of the book, but somehow most people don't immediately associate that name with "Catch 22". But everyone (almost) immediately recognize "Major Major" from the book.

The term"Catch 22" was used to explain why any pilot requesting mental evaluation for insanity—hoping to be found not sane enough to fly and thereby escape dangerous missions—demonstrates his own sanity in making the request and thus cannot be declared insane.

The term Catch 22 is recognized by pretty much everyone (at least in the US, I can't say whether the term has as much weight in the UK) as a can't win situation. Sort of like everything about Amanda and Raffaele with the guilters.

Well duh! I got your point AC, fear not. Major (Major Major) Major's office routine was another catch 22 - you could only go in to see him when he was out but when he was in you had to wait - until he had gone out, then you could go in.:D

ETA we do read books over here you know!
 
Vibio said:
I finally saw the NBC/BBC documentary. Very good. I was particularly struck by Sarah Gino's idiotic arguments (not even SHE believed what she was saying), the luminal footprints, Amanda Knox in the surveillance cam all showered and blow-dried (yeah, right), the devastating comments by the DNA expert about RS and the bra-clasp, Ms. Knox's statements in the prison recording,... and on and on.

Of course they're guilty.

There's been a request to have this thread not be an innocence echo chamber. I agree.

Can you explain why the BBC3, Andrea Vogt, produced documentary was good? I mean, other than the obvious conclusion it was based upon....

Start with mixed blood. Mignini based his prosecution on things like this... can you point to, for instance, any fact-finding judge who found that there was mixed blood at the scene?

Hint: you cannot.

What other facts did you find compelling? The DNA analysis presented by Vogt, based on Stefanoni's work? How, then, do you square this with the subsequent BBC4 DNA analysis which concluded that Stefanoni's work was substandard?

You see, what worries me is that your own conclusion about Vogt's documentary is based on confirmation bias, not an analysis of the evidence she presented.

Are you aware that she considers Edward McCall's Wiki to be the authority here? Can you tell us who Edward McCall is? I thought not. No one knows who he is or what his credentials are, yet Andrea Vogt lists him as an authority... and although does not refer to him directly in the BBC3 piece, she does refer to him elsewhere as an authority...

Does this bother you?
 
Whatever. I posted an opinion I still hold - that people can contribute to this thread without posting a timeline.

Sometimes I think some prefer this thread to be an echo chamber......


This is a strawman position, based (I am almost certain) on an underlying wish to agitate against a particular group of people than a sincere wish to advance the debate.

Suppose I went on (say) a cricket Ashes series thread (England vs Australia test cricket, for the uninitiated :)), in the middle of the last Ashes series, when England were already 2-0 down. Suppose that most people on the thread were arguing that Australia were definitely going to win the series, and that it might very well be a whitewash (which indeed, in the event, it was).

Suppose that I threw my hat into the ring and posted a comment that simply said: "I don't think Australia are going to win the series. I think England are going to win the next three matches and take the Ashes". Now, it would at that point be entirely reasonable for a "pro-Australia" participant to say to me: "Why do you think that? What are your reasons? Do you think that England are going to change their batting lineup substantially? Do you think they are going to find a better way to take 20 Australian wickets in the match?"

Of course it would be my prerogative to simply lob in the unsupported post that I thought England were going to win the next three tests and retain the Ashes. Of course I would be under zero obligation to justify my opinion. And of course I would be entirely on-topic at all times. But it would be entirely reasonable and logical for those who believed in the "pro-Australia" position to ask me to support my point of view.

And so it is in the Knox/Sollecito thread here. If people write posts on this thread that either naysay others' opinions, or make active claims in another area, it's perfectly appropriate for people to ask those posters to support and justify the factors that are necessary to underpin their opinions. In our case, it's essentially impossible to hold either an overarching view on the case (i.e. did Knox/Sollecito participate or not) or even individual elements (e.g. was there a clean-up or not) without being able to construct an underlying/underpinning narrative of the whole event. And the most critical part of that narrative is a coherent narrative that also fits all the known evidence.

In short, if somebody cannot posit an underlying narrative to underpin their position, then it's highly likely that they cannot have thought about the issue deeply or rationally enough to come to a properly-informed point of view. And of course people can decline to expose their narrative to the light, or to say that they don't even have one. But if that's the case, then I think that others are entitled to draw certain inferences from that refusal.

And, frankly, it's more than a little tiring to see the same old characters popping in from time to time with a snipe that's wholly related to a meta-discussion of the dynamics of this thread, rather than any actual attempt to engage in the debate that is the real topic of the thread. It's also very revealing. But if that's what floats some people's boats, then so be it.

Myself, I'm just off to a thread discussing the minimum wage, but not to make any contribution to the debate about whether the minimum wage works in practice, how/if it should be modified, what the level of the wage should be, etc. No, I am popping in there merely to make observations on how certain posters within the thread are acting. That's how I get my kicks :rolleyes:
 
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Breaking down the Echo Chamber...

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There's been a request to have this thread not be an innocence echo chamber. I agree.

Can you explain why the BBC3, Andrea Vogt, produced documentary was good? I mean, other than the obvious conclusion it was based upon....

Start with mixed blood. Mignini based his prosecution on things like this... can you point to, for instance, any fact-finding judge who found that there was mixed blood at the scene?

Hint: you cannot.

What other facts did you find compelling? The DNA analysis presented by Vogt, based on Stefanoni's work? How, then, do you square this with the subsequent BBC4 DNA analysis which concluded that Stefanoni's work was substandard?

You see, what worries me is that your own conclusion about Vogt's documentary is based on confirmation bias, not an analysis of the evidence she presented.

Are you aware that she considers Edward McCall's Wiki to be the authority here? Can you tell us who Edward McCall is? I thought not. No one knows who he is or what his credentials are, yet Andrea Vogt lists him as an authority... and although does not refer to him directly in the BBC3 piece, she does refer to him elsewhere as an authority...

Does this bother you?
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Oh come on Bill, why would anyone want to answer these questions when bullying people by making fun of them is... well, more fun and so much easier to do?

d

ETA acting stupid is always easier than being smart. I know because I catch myself being stupid all the time
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I have a different image. I see this thread as a high plateau where the PGPs are clinging on to the edge by their fingertips. My job is to stamp on them until they fall off. Don't worry, they don't die. There are some ledges far below to break their fall. Called TJMK PMF/PMF. :D

I love you too AC :)

ETA if I could illustrate my point with an example. When you and Dan and LJ go off on those darn cell towers I do not chime in. I read and try to follow. Same with 'hot-wiring' or whatever the heck it is. If Kaosium or Chris or Randy are doing DNA, the same. I know my limits. The person who has made his mind up about guilt without considering the considerable problems posed by the conflicting evidence does not. Or, worse, they do but they are not honest. Your sales patter may overcome that. I haven't seen it work yet though.

I agree with all of that.

And neither have I ...but I remain hopeful. Particularly with Lion King and a couple of others. I don't see them as hard core guilters. They may be on their side of the fence at the moment, but I'm hopeful, (maybe irrationally) that they will change their mind. I also don't expect the person I actually persuade to have a great online epiphany and switch sides. I expect them to go away, knowing that they were probably mistaken.

The biggest problem with my logic Anglo, is that when people actually take a public stance on an issue, it is almost impossible to for them to change sides publicly or at all. Just like in Italy. The embarrassment is way too large.
 
Well duh! I got your point AC, fear not. Major (Major Major) Major's office routine was another catch 22 - you could only go in to see him when he was out but when he was in you had to wait - until he had gone out, then you could go in.:D

ETA we do read books over here you know!

I've heard..didn't Shakespeare come from England?

But I never knew if you guys read anything written in American English. I thought just maybe you require a Google translator for that.
 
The timeline is for the court to come up with and we will see in the motivations report.

I don't have a clue about the timeline... I'm not an expert on digestion etc. That doesn't negate the fact that so many other factors lead me to believe AK&RS are guilty.

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I finally saw the NBC/BBC documentary. Very good. I was particularly struck by Sarah Gino's idiotic arguments (not even SHE believed what she was saying), the luminal footprints, Amanda Knox in the surveillance cam all showered and blow-dried (yeah, right), the devastating comments by the DNA expert about RS and the bra-clasp, Ms. Knox's statements in the prison recording,... and on and on.

Of course they're guilty.

But do I have a timeline for the murder? No. We'll see what those who were actually in court and have studied the case (in a way that no one here possibly could) have to say.


Did you hear the BBC Radio 4 programme about the case? The one that was made by the BBC's own in-house journalists, for the BBC's flagship (and extremely highly respected globally) speech radio channel?

Personally, I think you're better off listening to that programme as a source of information, rather than a bought-in commission for a BBC youth TV channel with next-to-zero prestige or credibility for sober investigative journalism, made by two people who make no secret of their agitation for the guilt of Knox (and that other guy, oh what's his name again.....?).

That's just me though. I consider the source.
 
I have a culture question for all the Brits. Are any American TV shows aired over there? We don't see many British shows. Sometimes they repackage a UK series. The Office for example. One of the most popular American tv shows ever (All in the Family) was a repackaged British show. But those are few. And we never seem to see any "original" cast British series. But Downtown Abbey and Sherlock are hugely popular on PBS in the US now.

Any way, I'm curious.
 
I think you should look up the definition of this term.


I think I know perfectly well what it means.

I'll explain, for your comprehension:

You said:

I posted an opinion I still hold - that people can contribute to this thread without posting a timeline.


I am saying, in response to that post, that nobody is proposing the argument that people cannot contribute to this thread without posting a timeline. So your argument is a strawman. Does it make sense now?

Instead, what people are saying is that it influences the credibility and power of people's arguments if they cannot or will not underpin those arguments with the necessary narrative. And that therefore it's perfectly acceptable to ask them to provide such a narrative. Not that it's "not allowed" to post something without backing it up in any way.

As I said, I would have been perfectly at liberty - and entirely within the MA - to visit an Ashes thread half way through the recent series, and posted that I thought England were going to trounce Australia in the next three tests and win the series, without saying why I held that opinion and upon what factors I based it. But it would have been entirely reasonable and appropriate for other posters in the thread - particularly "pro-Australia" posters - to ask me to justify and support my opinion.

Can you please make some contribution to the subject under debate (the trials process of Knox and Sollecito)? That is a request to you. Not a demand. You can agree, disagree or ignore the request. I will be entitled to draw certain inferences from each of those three choices. See how it works?
 
I have a culture question for all the Brits. Are any American TV shows aired over there? We don't see many British shows. Sometimes they repackage a UK series. The Office for example. One of the most popular American tv shows ever (All in the Family) was a repackaged British show. But those are few. And we never seem to see any "original" cast British series. But Downtown Abbey and Sherlock are hugely popular on PBS in the US now.

Any way, I'm curious.


Yes. We get tons of US shows over here. Of all genres. In addition, one can watch two US networks' main evening news programmes (ABC and CBS I think), plus things like the Tonight Show etc.

In fact, the UK has one of the richest and most cosmopolitan TV environments in the world. We are very lucky in that regard. Even PBS is carried here. We get UK flavours of things like the Discovery Channel, National Geographic Channel and the History Channel, as well as similar UK-originated channels that often buy in US programming. We get French and Russian news services, Indian news and dramas, Arabic news and dramas, various African nation programmes, Chinese programming, and plenty of Australasian stuff of course.

One thing that the UK has always been good at is not being insular. Which is ironic, of course, on account of it being a rather small island (well, set of islands). In my view, the educated section of the UK public probably has the most cosmopolitan and globally-informed outlook in the world. It's perhaps one of the reasons why some of us are interested in a court case in Italy, involving Italian and US defendants (although of course the British victim is also a significant factor).
 
I do. That my contribution doesn't meet your expectations is of no consequence.


Where are those contributions? And you've amusingly created another strawman: I didn't ask (or even suggest) that your contribution "met my expectations".

In any case, you have no idea what my expectations are. Especially those regarding your input to the debate :D
 
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