Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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They told her she no longer had an alibi, that was the threat. Why didn't she cry out that's not true why did R say that it's not true .Any innocent percent would have just repeated that . Instead she confusedly remembers meeting this bad man and bringing him home in a short time. Really? Believe what you will.Her statements fit with evidence she was there. Believe the footprints were turnip juice coming out of the bedroom , I'm getting back to the Olympics and the Canadian women's great game!

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It would really do you some good to read up on the literature. Start with The Reid Technique. - banned in some jurisdictions because it can produce false confessions, particularly in the young...

.....then go with "false confessions" themselves. It would save you from making completely misleading statements like these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique

Critics of the technique claim it too easily produces false confessions, especially with children. The use of the Reid technique on youth is prohibited in several European countries because of the incidence of false confessions and wrongful convictions that result.
In Canada, a Provincial Court judge ruled in 2012 that "stripped to its bare essentials, the Reid Technique is a guilt-presumptive, confrontational, psychologically manipulative procedure whose purpose is to extract a confession."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confessions

False confessions can be categorized into three general types, as outlined by Saul M. Kassin in an article for Current Directions in Psychological Science:

Voluntary false confessions are those that are given freely, without police prompting. Sometimes they may be sacrificial, to divert attention from the actual person who committed the crime. For instance, a parent might confess to save their child from jail. In some cases, people have falsely confessed to having committed notorious crimes simply for the attention that they receive from such a confession. Approximately 60 people are reported to have confessed to the 1947 murder of Elizabeth Short, known as the "Black Dahlia."

Compliant false confessions are given to escape a stressful situation, avoid punishment, or gain a promised or implied reward. Interrogation techniques such as the Reid technique try to suggest to the suspect that he will experience a feeling of moral appeasement if he chooses to confess. Material rewards like coffee or the cessation of the interrogation are also used to the same effect. People may also confess to a crime they did not commit as a form of plea bargaining to avoid a harsher sentence. People who are easily coerced score high on the Gudjonsson suggestibility scale.

Internalized false confessions are those in which the person genuinely believes that they have committed the crime, as a result of highly suggestive interrogation techniques.​

According to the Innocence Project, approximately 25% of convicted criminals ultimately exonerated had, in fact, confessed to the crime. In Canada, courts of law have recognized as valid confessions that were acquired, even though the interrogators lied by suggesting they had substantial evidence against a given suspect when in fact they did not, something known as the "bluff" technique. The high pressure generated may push innocent individuals to produce a confession.
 
They told her she no longer had an alibi, that was the threat. Why didn't she cry out that's not true why did R say that it's not true .Any innocent percent would have just repeated that . Instead she confusedly remembers meeting this bad man and bringing him home in a short time. Really? Believe what you will.Her statements fit with evidence she was there. Believe the footprints were turnip juice coming out of the bedroom , (end quote)

Briars, I suspect that in the hour or so of interrogation before Anna Donnino arrived, there was a lot of misunderstandings in the conversation due to the language barrier between the hostile (and sometimes shouting) police interrogators and Knox. But we can clear it up now. Just play the tape.

In the US the failure to provide a competent (and impartial) translator until an hour or so into an interrogation would almost certainly result in a court dismissing anything said in the interrogation or arising in subsequent conversation as a result of that garbled interrogation. How would that work in the UK? Would a UK court also disallow anything alleged to have been said when the two parties do not speak(really speak) the same language?
 
They told her she no longer had an alibi, that was the threat. Why didn't she cry out that's not true why did R say that it's not true .Any innocent percent would have just repeated that . Instead she confusedly remembers meeting this bad man and bringing him home in a short time. Really? Believe what you will.Her statements fit with evidence she was there. Believe the footprints were turnip juice coming out of the bedroom , I'm getting back to the Olympics and the Canadian women's great game!

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Timeline please. Also what is the evidence that shows AK and RS were in the room and participated in the murder.
 
Briars, why not just cut to the chase: Do you believe Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith while the innocent Rudy Guede was taking a dump a couple of minutes after he had consensual sex with her?
 
One problem I find is that people who have not looked at the literature of false confessions just do not understand how easy it is to get pushed into confessing and implicating another person.

In some cases, you might actually grow to think you really were there. Somebody tells you that you are somewhere long enough, you may create false memories of it.
 
Briars, why not just cut to the chase: Do you believe Amanda and Raffaele killed Meredith while the innocent Rudy Guede was taking a dump a couple of minutes after he had consensual sex with her?

The Florence prosecutor, Crini, disagrees with this. The murder happened AFTER Rudy toileted.... and was the result of Meredith blowing her top at Amanda, for pooh being left in Filomena's/Laura's toilet... not even Meredith's toilet.

Up there with unbelievable aspect of this theory, is that it is hard to believe Mereidth was ever bitchy like this. No one, ever, said that Meredith herself would react like that.

Did the murder happen before, during or after Rudy toiletted? Who knew that the bizarre, and ever changing prosecution theories would get this daft.

Briars. Maybe you can straighten this out for us. Do you believe Rudy, Mignini, Massei, or Crini? Here's a hint - they offer mutually exclusive theories.

And if you answer, "Motive is not essential", why do you suppose that prosecutors/convicting judges offered so many of them?
 
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One problem I find is that people who have not looked at the literature of false confessions just do not understand how easy it is to get pushed into confessing and implicating another person.

In some cases, you might actually grow to think you really were there. Somebody tells you that you are somewhere long enough, you may create false memories of it.


And it doesn't even have to be somebody else. Chuck Erickson talked himself into believing that he was a murderer.
 
And it doesn't even have to be somebody else. Chuck Erickson talked himself into believing that he was a murderer.

I don't think we can compare the two cases though. . .
Talking himself into believing he was the murderer took years and he had been on hard drugs at the time.
 
He didn't prosecute anyone. The Italian system allowing the victim's attorneys in court is absurd but certainly not Nazi like.

It was stupid to make any reference to the Kerchers as being Nazi like. They are more like victims of torture than torturers.

THE PROCURATORE GENERALE FOR THE APPEAL COURT OF PERUGIA
KERCHER STEPHANIE ARLINE LARA. DOB 21/07/1983
KERCHER ARLINE CAROL MARY, DOB 11/11/1945
KERCHER JOHN ASHLEY DOB 21/10/1976
KERCHER LYLE DOB 03/07/1979
KERCHER JOHN LESLIE N. IL 11/12/1942
against

AMANDA KNOX MARIE DOB 09/07/1987
SOLLECITO, RAFFAELE DOB 26/03/1984
Also:
AMANDA KNOX MARIE DOB 09/07/1987

Their lawyer on their behalf spoke in the same manner as the prosecutor.
Lyle is calling for incarceration more aggressively than the judge, none of which makes analogies to any fascist system relevant I agree.
ETA not my Nazi comment, Bremner apparently.
 
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Timeline please. Also what is the evidence that shows AK and RS were in the room and participated in the murder.

Know what? It's entirely possible to post in this thread and remain on topic without showing a timeline.

Insisting that people contribute to this thread in specified ways only is close to bullying, in my opinion.
 
Know what? It's entirely possible to post in this thread and remain on topic without showing a timeline.

Insisting that people contribute to this thread in specified ways only is close to bullying, in my opinion.
Surely to propose deprivation of liberty suggests a far more disciplined approach is needed than proposing the converse. What is the purpose of this thread if no crime narrative is sensibly offered?
 
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Surely to advocate deprivation of liberty suggests a far more disciplined approach is needed than advocating for the converse. What is the purpose of this thread if no crime narrative is proposed?

I know many want to see only certain types of post. This forum allows people to post opinions even if unpopular and wrong.
 
Know what? It's entirely possible to post in this thread and remain on topic without showing a timeline.

Insisting that people contribute to this thread in specified ways only is close to bullying, in my opinion.

The trouble is that those that seem to be arguing for guilt don't bring any kind of solid evidence. This is suppose to be a skeptics forum. One where we know just how screwed up human perceptions and recall really can be.
 
The trouble is that those that seem to be arguing for guilt don't bring any kind of solid evidence. This is suppose to be a skeptics forum. One where we know just how screwed up human perceptions and recall really can be.

See my previous post.
 
That is a question that I really don't have enough information about.Do you have cite that disputes a search of his home?I know Lumumba's bar was closed and I presume searched.
Amanda told a story of running into Lumumba and returning with him to the cottage. The cottage knives were searched and Amanda was brought back to view the drawer.
If you are also suggesting the police had the name Lumumba and wanted to frame him that is absurd. I listened to the recent recording of how she came to name Lumumba. It is completely consistent with the police acting on new information from RS that she went out. She is told we know you went out , we have this message on your phone, who did you meet?. She provides the name Lumumba . A person never considered before by the police is now the main suspect. In fact the police must have been certain they had their man from what Amanda said. Amanda told them what they now knew to be true that she had gone out ,met someone caso chiuso. An unfortunate but understandable comment.
Amanda was not threatened , she no doubt was told she was a liar because they now knew she went out. She tells Mignini in jail she was stressed tired it was the middle of the night and they called her a liar. Big deal she normally was up till after 2am, and she had had the entire day off. A midnight confession after a brief interview does not justify her lying about Lumumba. Fear that her accomplice in the other room was spilling the beans made her jump on the name on her phone.
The creepy coincidence of meeting at court where Guede hung out, the sexual assault , the black man the banging noise in the room and the terrible scream all fit. Mignini said she covered her ears when looking at the cottage knives and had an emotional reaction the sound may haunt her.

Thanks Briars. I appreciate the reply. I am not suggesting they were trying to frame Lumumba. My theory differs from yours in that I do believe they knew and suspected him before the interrogations but I have no proof of that. But whether your theory or mine is the better one it would be a stunning fact, if true, that they did not seal and search the apartment of the guy they had just been told was the killer.

As to that, I have asked around widely and the answers I have are all to the same effect: they sent a fleet of vehicles to pick him up but did not seal or search. I can't really prove a negative though. If items from his place showed up in the forensic test results that would suggest my information was wrong.

Remember that they did collect a knife from Raffaele's place that morning. Isn't that weird? Patrick was the killer but they got a knife from Raf's place, which they also searched and took samples from for testing. That's all in Massei. I don't get it.

Naturally, I don't share your view of the interrogation but that's another story.
 
And it doesn't even have to be somebody else. Chuck Erickson talked himself into believing that he was a murderer.

Even that's not all that rare. The cops told Amanda essentially "We know you were there, we have proof you were there, but you're so traumatized that you've blocked it all out. It must have been terrible for you! We want to help you. Try to remember, just try to imagine what it was like. Let it all come back to you...." This isn't interrogation, it's brainwashing, and some cops are both skilled and experienced at it. Amanda was a spacey Seattle granola-cruncher who trusted the cops in a room with a dozen of them. She believed what they told her, and she handed it back to them tied in a bow. Let's not be too quick to pretend it couldn't happen to us. Under the right circumstances, yes it could.
 
Know what? It's entirely possible to post in this thread and remain on topic without showing a timeline.

Insisting that people contribute to this thread in specified ways only is close to bullying, in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree. It is too much to ask that people be logically and factually accountable for their opinions? Particularly if you are suggesting that two people spend twenty years of their lives incarcerated? Seriously, Lion King, If your judgement isn't based on logic and the evidence, is it truly fair?
 
I know many want to see only certain types of post. This forum allows people to post opinions even if unpopular and wrong.

See my previous post.

Posts such as Popy1016's are designed to challenge, to get them to hopefully think beyond "There are problems with their story and I can see no way that an innocent person would ever implicate another."
Want to get them to think to themselves "Why is there no physical evidence which most forensics experts outside of this case will accept?"
 
I respectfully disagree. It is too much to ask that people be logically and factually accountable for their opinions? Particularly if you are suggesting that two people spend twenty years of their lives incarcerated? Seriously, Lion King, If your judgement isn't based on logic and the evidence, is it truly fair?

Of course people's opinions can and should be challenged. What I'm talking about is when someone is posting about something unrelated to the time of death and sequence of events which precede it, they are regularly asked "oh yeah, where's your timeline pal" and similar. Unnecessary and, as I said, somewhat bullying.
 
Know what? It's entirely possible to post in this thread and remain on topic without showing a timeline.

Insisting that people contribute to this thread in specified ways only is close to bullying, in my opinion.

If it were a science thread and you posted unsustainable conclusions while refusing to address problems with them you would (rightly) be dismissed as a stupid moron. What's the difference here? The prosecution case is made of elements that don't fit. That's why those who uphold the pro-guilt position are asked to confront this problem - to see if they can deal with it. Of course, any body is free to post on topic nonsense on any thread here but that's not really the point of the forum.
 
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