Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Why? What's 'key' about it?

By the way, good find Dan. I agree with you that the mere fact they tapped Lumumba's phone and the reasonable deduction that they did so before they arrested him suggests they knew about him before the interrogations. It is a big find.

Next stop - Lumumba's testimony. Now I know how to google translate whole tracts of testimony there will be no stopping me! Today Lumumba, tomorrow the Sudetenland! Sieg Hei … oh, sorry.


You do know about the "translate a document" feature? I've been translating the whole days transcripts and saving the result as a web archive file that give a popup of the original Italian text when you scroll over the translated text. All I need now is a way to put these web archives back in the web.


What will stop you is the scanned PDFs. :mad:

Does anyone have a good OCR program?!
 
No, you keep up. I am way out in front :D What they started with was a cell phone number, the number with which she exchanged messages between 8 and 9 p.m. on the 1st. Assuming an unregistered phone, they had some work to do tie that number up with Patrick. But I assume that would be pretty easily done. Bug the phone and listen to his conversations might be enough, checking out people he was in telephone contact with and simply asking one of them (also easily done). Then, by all means, bug his bar and tail the guy either or both of which they may well have done.

Let me see if I am keeping up with Dan. Lumumba had two phones with almost identical numbers. He kept one in the bar at all times and the other he had on his person. They were rigged so that a text sent to one would be received by both. The phone the cops recovered was the one from the bar. It had Amanda's message on it but not Lumumba's to her and it appeared the message had never been on the phone at all. It had not been deleted. The other phone was never found. Dan, please correct me if any of that is wrong (and don't be too brutal about it please :))

A couple of things about this are:

  1. it shows that deleting a text is not the end of the story so far as data retrieval is concerned. It follows there may yet be interesting information on Amanda's phone (assuming they didn't entrust it's storage to any Italian policeman, prosecuting lawyer or lab technician - fingers crossed!). The time at which Patrick's message was deleted might be there, for example. That would settle who deleted it because we know to the minute how long she had the phone under her exclusive control.
  2. How come they didn't retrieve Patrick's other phone? Surely at 6 in the morning it was right there beside his bed or in his coat pocket or wherever he kept it, right? It was a key item since (we are supposed to believe) the cops did not know what his message had said. They would surely have searched and quickly found the phone had they been interested in gathering crucial incriminating evidence against Patrick. All they had to was scream at him very loudly until he gave them the phone. Easy. So why didn't they? Where is the phone?

I suggest none of this happened because they knew exactly what his message said and it was no help to them. I further suggest they found and 'lost' the phone and that Patrick was made to understand which way was up before he gave evidence. Was he asked what became of that phone? His testimony needs to be examined.

There was also something about him switching out SIM cards. Is it possible that they weren't aware of two phones? Is it possible that he had one phone and two SIMs. As per Anglo, Dan if you respond, be gentle.
 
This seems helpful:

As is known, the interception is "allowed", subject to authorization granted by reasoned decree PM by GIP, well defined only in relation to serious criminal offenses (analytically indicated in Article .266 CPP) and only "when there are serious indications of crime and the interception is absolutely essential for the continuation of the investigation "(art.267 CPP).

http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=37303

Hmm. So where is this GIP warrant?

ETA: And here:

For some offense personally fulfilled the 'interception of conversations, telephone calls and other forms of telecommunication, or may delegate their implementation to the PG, require prior authorization by the GIP. "In cases of emergency, when there is reason to believe that serious injury may result from the delay in the investigation," the PM has the interception by reasoned decree to be announced no later than 24 hours within 48 hours of GIP that decides on the validation by reasoned decree . In case of lack of validation "intercept can not be continued and the results of it can not be used" (art. 266 CCP).
 
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One More

The interception is the act by which a surprise party takes note of a conversation or a confidential communication relating also to computer systems and data, running from other parties. The Criminal Section VI of the Supreme Court, in its judgment of 29 March 2005, no. 12189 defines interception as the occult and contextual catchment of a communication or conversation between two or more parties acting with the intention to exclude others objectively and in a manner suitable for the purpose, carried out by the same person unconnected with the technical tools of perception such as to undermine the precautions ordinarily designed to protect its confidential nature. However, does not constitute interception activities and does not require any authorization under Art. 267 cpp recording of an interview carried out clandestinely by one of the participants in it, it is a mere form of storage phonic of a historical fact, which the author participates.

Prerequisite to arrange the wiretaps is, therefore, the presence of serious evidence of guilt and that the commission of a crime. The evidence which, pursuant to art. 267, paragraph 1, Code of Criminal Procedure constitute a prerequisite for the use of wiretaps pertaining to the existence of the crime and not the culpability of a particular subject. The function of the interception is precisely to identify the person responsible for a crime, starting from an offense committed or being consumed.

The intercepts may relate to the acquisition of knowledge of telecommunications telephone (using the tool of your phone or other forms of transmission), as well as talks between present knowledge of at least one of the interested parties (ie eavesdropping). In the Code of Criminal Procedure were introduced, pursuant to art. 266bis (L.547/1993), but the intercepts concerning the flow of communication between electronic systems or computer.

The interception of conversations or communications, in accordance with Article 266 of the Criminal Procedure Code, shall be eligible only for certain categories of offenses identified for legal asset protected by them or the amount of the penalty. In addition, it allowed the interception when you are making in order to intentional crimes for which there is a penalty higher than a maximum of five years and other specific crimes, such as the telephone threats, wear, child pornography ( see art. 13, l. 6.2.2006, no. 38 - Provisions relating to the fight against sexual exploitation of children and child pornography, including through the Internet), the illegal financial activity, crimes relating to drugs or psychotropic substances, offenses relating to weapons and explosive substances etc. ...

To be able to proceed with wiretapping authorization is required the judge for preliminary investigations, upon reasoned request (1) of the Public Prosecutor. This authorization is given by the magistrate to the PM by reasoned decree (2) :

- If you are serious evidence of offense, or evidence and clear that prove not the guilt of the person against whom the interception is carried out, but only the commission of the offense. They are believed to be serious all the clues consistent and resistant to the objections and, therefore, reliable, convincing; - If the interception is absolutely essential for the continuation of the investigations that would otherwise be blocked; - If there are precise and consistent evidence of a crime, that is not generic and not susceptible to different interpretations or misunderstandings not among them.
However, based on art. 103 5th paragraph of the Criminal Procedure Code, as amended by art. 1 Law of 7 December 2000, n. 397, is not allowed to intercept conversations or communications relating to the defenders, the licensed private investigators and agents in relation to the proceedings, technical advisers and their assistants, or those between them and the people they assisted. You have to specify that Article. 103, paragraph 5 of the Criminal Procedure Code, prohibits the interception of conversations or communications, defense, since it is designed to ensure the exercise of the defense. This right applies, however, only to the conversations or communications relating to the affairs in which the lawyers pursue their defensive activity, and does not extend, so the conversations that integrate themselves offense (eg, a lawyer had advised his client of the initiatives taken by the police, giving advice to his client on how to avoid capture and thereby committing the offense of aiding and abetting).

The decree by which the court shall authorize the interception following the decree by which the prosecutor has that the underlying transactions could begin, establishing the length of time and the concrete ways. In the duration, the legislator provides that the same can not be more than fifteen days, with extensions by the magistrate for successive periods of fifteen more days, but for the offenses of organized crime, the transaction may be longer than forty days with extension of twenty days for subsequent periods. Instead, in cases of urgency, but only with reference to the offenses of organized crime can provide for the provision of interception directly with the prosecutor reasoned decree, subject to validation by the court, in the very brief terms of paragraph 2 of art. 267 Code of Criminal Procedure

At this point, we must say that the intercepted communications are recorded and operations shall be documented (art. 268 CCP). As a rule, the interception must take place through facilities located at the offices of the Public Prosecutor. However, only in very exceptional cases, urgent and unpredictable the prosecutor may decide to resort to external plants. The "urgent cases" that enable the prosecutor to issue the decree of interception of conversations or communications in accordance with art. 267, paragraph 2, of the Criminal Procedure Code shall include, as a rule, the "exceptional reasons of urgency" that legitimize, pursuant to art. 268, paragraph 3, of the Criminal Procedure Code, the execution of operations systems supplied by the judicial police, if they are insufficient or unsuitable ones installed at the Prosecutor's Office.

According to the rules of the Code of Criminal Procedure interceptions must be recorded and the related transactions shall be prepared report, which is transcribed, even in summary form, the contents of the intercepted communications. Subsequently, the minutes and records shall be immediately transmitted to the public prosecutor and shall be deposited in the office (along with various decrees) within five days of the conclusion of operations, for the time fixed by the prosecution unless the court deems it necessary to extend. The transcripts or so prints are included in the dossier for the trial (Article 268, paragraph 7 ° cpp). So, the minutes and records shall be kept in full at the prosecutor who ordered the interception until the judgment is no longer subject to appeal (Article 269 CCP). Instead, the documents relating to the interception can not be used (Article 271 paragraph 3 of the Criminal Procedure Code) must be destroyed on the orders of the court.

Regarding the use of the results of interceptions, one must say that this is prohibited in proceedings other than those in which the intercepts were placed, unless it is essential for the investigation of the crimes for which the arrest is mandatory in flagrante delicto. In the latter case, the minutes and records of the wiretaps are filed with the competent authority for the different proceedings.

http://www.overlex.com/leggiarticolo.asp?id=1229
 
DNA Testing

... Maybe Ms. Alexander will interview Ms. Colmez again to discuss the actual results of the latest DNA testing. Maybe not, though.


Why on earth would she discuss this with Colmez? The latest DNA testing involved only Swab I (Knox), whereas Colmez was referring to Swab B (Kercher).

By the way, both defense and prosecution accept these are indeed the traces of the people involved. Hopefully Ruth Alexander won't get bogged down in revisiting what are now settled matters, otherwise the audience will drop off to sleep. There are more pertinent questions that could be asked at this extremely late stage of the trial.
 
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Why? What's 'key' about it?

By the way, good find Dan. I agree with you that the mere fact they tapped Lumumba's phone and the reasonable deduction that they did so before they arrested him suggests they knew about him before the interrogations. It is a big find.

I'm just skimmed the last six pages so I may have missed something, but do we know for sure they bugged his phone beforehand? Looking at the testimony, it seems they bugged 77 (!) people's phones between 2nd November and June of the following year. It strikes me the first thing that they would've done on Patrick becoming a suspect would be to seize his phone records and put a tap on his phone. Is there any reason to think they must have done it beforehand?

I think it would be massive if true - so much so that if the defence lawyers really did have a list in front of them showing Patrick's phone and bar were bugged on 2nd November, it's hard to believe they didn't mention it.

I'm not sure what to make of them saying they bugged Guede's phone too, given that another witness said he didn't have one...
 
Wasn't Mignini charged with illegal wiretapping in the MOF case?

I believe that he was. He seems to love wiretaps.

I can see no reason, in a murder investigation, to wiretap someone unless you believe that: 1) they did it, or 2) they know facts that they are hiding (i.e., because they are an accessory/accomplice).

Basically, it seems to me that if you wiretap someone, they are a suspected.
 
Just what is the procedure and standard of proof for all of this wiretapping?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure

Of course, that's for indagato, which is a person suspected of a crime, I believe. What's the standard for wiretapping a mere witness, I wonder?


There is an extraordinary - and unlawful - epidemic of wiretapping in Italy. There's ample evidence that police and PMs routinely abuse their power by ordering contra-judicial wiretaps like they were ordering up pizzas.

It's my belief that the reason why a blind eye is institutionally turned to such activities is the exact same reason behind so many other endemic problems in Italian criminal justice: a toxic combination of a hangover from the Fascist era, and the deeply-embedded menace of organised crime. For those reasons, it appears that senior courts, politicians and the public are all prepared to overlook huge infringements of personal liberties and privacy, in favour of something that looks awfully like it's part of the way to being defined as a Police State. It's shocking, and hugely backward.
 
You are making the assumption that BBC radio 4 would not happily put the boot into a BBC TV 3 bought in documentary.
Apparently one of the journalists doing the program was the same one who did the Maths on Trial article with Leila Schnepps' daughter. Didn't sound too promising except I'd forgotten she said this bit:
"So what this means in the case of the knife in the murder is that if it were tested again, and once again the DNA was Meredith's profile we could be a lot more certain that the DNA on the knife is indeed Meredith's," Colmez says.

And if the knife were tested again and the DNA did not match Meredith Kercher's profile? That would be good news for Knox and Sollecito, she says.

"This would mean that this major piece of evidence against them would be discredited."
The program should be interesting, I'm expecting it to be a lot more balanced than the BBC3 one anyway (not that it could be much worse!).
 
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looking into the science

Why on earth would she discuss this with Colmez? The latest DNA testing involved only Swab I (Knox), whereas Colmez was referring to Swab A (Kercher).

By the way, both defense and prosecution accept these are indeed the traces of the people involved. Hopefully Ruth Alexander won't get bogged down in revisiting what are now settled matters, otherwise the audience will drop off to sleep. There are more pertinent questions that could be asked at this extremely late stage of the trial.
Super,

Colmez made the case for retesting the knife, with the possibility of making the old result (the low template finding of Ms. Kercher's profile) more reliable. Whether her case is a good one or not is a matter for a separate comment. What the Carabinieri actually found was DNA that probably arose from Ms. Knox as a donor. Colmez should be asked how the fact of not finding Kercher's DNA impacts on the reliability of the first test. That was the whole point of doing the second test.

IIRC Ms. Knox was already shown to be a donor with respect to DNA on the handle; therefore, finding her DNA on the blade does not seem very surprising. However, the result is actually more exculpatory than inculpatory. Now the prosecution is asserting in effect that one can clean a knife of blood completely, yet still leave two traces of DNA on the blade, as well as starch on the blade. I am with Professor Budowle: The prosecution's case defies reason on this point. Perhaps Ms. Alexander will look into this question.

And there are still other questions to be asked, for example she could explore how many cases of DNA contamination exist where a route was shown vs. how many case of DNA contamination exist where a route is not known. This is one of the scientific errors perpetrated by the CSC.
EDT
I see that Katy_did covered this point very well. Here is the link to the interview with the quote again.
 
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You do know about the "translate a document" feature? I've been translating the whole days transcripts and saving the result as a web archive file that give a popup of the original Italian text when you scroll over the translated text. All I need now is a way to put these web archives back in the web.


What will stop you is the scanned PDFs. :mad:

Does anyone have a good OCR program?!

I am only slightly behind you on this learning curve having dipped into the IIP knowledge base earlier today (they are no mugs over there :)). But I think the transcripts we are talking about is 'machine-readable'. Note how I drop the jargon into my posts as though I have been using it for years.

Methos is the go-to guy for OCR work.
 
Apparently one of the journalists doing the program was the same one who did the Maths on Trial article with Leila Schnepp's daughter. Didn't sound too promising except I'd forgotten she said this bit:

The program should be interesting, I'm expecting it to be a lot more balanced than the BBC3 one anyway (not that it could be much worse!).



That quote of Colmez's that you gave:

And if the knife were tested again and the DNA did not match Meredith Kercher's profile? That would be good news for Knox and Sollecito, she says.

"This would mean that this major piece of evidence against them would be discredited."


...only goes to indicate just how ignorant Colmez (and Schneps) is about forensic science. The very fact of not finding Meredith's DNA on the knife at 36I was not - in and of itself - a discrediting factor and/or "good news" for Knox and Sollecito.

In fact, the non-discovery of Meredith's DNA at 36I, in and of itself, was broadly neutral to the incriminating nature of the knife against Knox/Sollecito. After all, the prosecution had claimed that the knife had been carefully cleaned anyhow. And in fact, even the discovery of Meredith's DNA at 36I would have changed little -since the quantities involved were so minuscule as to render any result virtually invalid anyhow.

But what was important about the retest of 36I - and what turned out to further discredit the knife as a whole - was the confirmation that the amounts of DNA involved (both at 36I and at 36B where Meredith's DNA was allegedly found by Stefanoni) were so incredibly tiny that extreme caution - and specific protocols - must be followed before any such evidence is accepted as reliable or valid. The retesting of 36I - by a credible expert laboratory - confirmed that Stefanoni's original 36B results were fundamentally unreliable and invalid. In other words, there is in fact no reliable, credible evidence that Meredith Kercher's DNA was ever present on the blade of that knife.

I have a funny feeling that time and events will reveal just how ignorant, biassed and unscientific Schneps' and Colmez's book was in relation to the Knox/Sollecito trials.
 
I'm just skimmed the last six pages so I may have missed something, but do we know for sure they bugged his phone beforehand? Looking at the testimony, it seems they bugged 77 (!) people's phones between 2nd November and June of the following year. It strikes me the first thing that they would've done on Patrick becoming a suspect would be to seize his phone records and put a tap on his phone. Is there any reason to think they must have done it beforehand?

I think it would be massive if true - so much so that if the defence lawyers really did have a list in front of them showing Patrick's phone and bar were bugged on 2nd November, it's hard to believe they didn't mention it.

I'm not sure what to make of them saying they bugged Guede's phone too, given that another witness said he didn't have one...

Sadly, I must agree that we are probably thrown back on speculation for now. I still maintain it was possible, therefore probable, they were listening to Patrick before the 5th. Why would they wire-tap him after letting him go? Maybe they would but even then, did they just give him his phone back (surely not) or did he have to get a new one? I ask because the wire taps on the sheet may be tied up with particular telephone numbers.
 
Ah yes, Italy...

There is an extraordinary - and unlawful - epidemic of wiretapping in Italy.

For those reasons, it appears that senior courts, politicians and the public are all prepared to overlook huge infringements of personal liberties and privacy, in favour of something that looks awfully like it's part of the way to being defined as a Police State. It's shocking, and hugely backward.

(eyes rolling)
 
Ah yes, Italy...





(eyes rolling)


So would you disagree with either of those two things that I wrote? If so, I'd be keen to see your points of disagreement and your counterarguments.

Rather than, you know, an empty snipe.........
 
What did the CSC say with respect to retesting

From the PMF translation (pp. 89-90),

"It must be concluded that when it rejected the request of the Prosecutor General and of the Counsel to the Civil Parties to complete the expert investigations by analysing the new traces found on the blade of the knife collected in Sollecito’s flat, as initially mandated to the experts ‐‐ a request that was supported by more than adequate scientific knowledge ‐‐ the Court made a flawed decision, by reason of its failure to comply with the relevant laws which mandate the safeguarding of all parties in their access to evidence (article 190 of the Criminal Procedure Code), especially in an area in which the expert report (as a means of seeking evidence) was requested by the Defence, and was arranged, but was not completed regarding the new trace, even though it demanded a response more than any other.

"On this point the claims of error are well‐founded, since once the new expert investigation was arranged, it had to be completed, and thus should have also analysed the newly found trace, without fear or a pre‐conceived closed mind, but with the more accurate and modern techniques of “experimental” analysis. Not doing so resulted in an error of law for failed acquisition of key evidence, with the resulting defect of obvious lack of logic in the reasoning (again due to incomplete utilisation of the inferential basis, as facts that are not just significant, but essential, were ignored), as correctly denounced by the Prosecutor General submitting the appeal."

Two points. One, the CSC was asking for the retest (perhaps they can explain how the results fit in with their own "preconceived" notions). Two, the "more accurate and modern techniques" need to be defined lest this be judged as more science fiction, courtesy of the high court. Was the court relying upon the supposed expertise of Professor Novelli? Professor Novelli talked about what is done in his lab, but from what I can gather he was not speaking about DNA forensic profiling. I have looked into single-cell PCR, and I can find discussions of it in the medical literature that go at least back twenty years. So, exactly what are these new techniques, and did the Carabinieri use them? If the Carabinieri are by definition "experts," then their statement on the need to perform low template DNA tests at least twice is definitive, and the original result on the knife is thereby discredited.
EDT
Here is a link to a 1994 review article which discusses using one or two cells as a diagnostic tool. IMO it is unwarranted to extrapolate from the use of 1-2 cells in medical PCR to using similar quantities of DNA in forensic PCR. The difference lies in the knowledge of the origin of the cells.
 
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So would you disagree with either of those two things that I wrote? If so, I'd be keen to see your points of disagreement and your counterarguments.

Rather than, you know, an empty snipe.........

Oh no..no..no... continue please.

Now where were we... oh yes...the wire tapping, the huge infringements of personal liberties and privacy: "It's shocking, and hugely backward."

Do go on.
 
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There was also something about him switching out SIM cards. Is it possible that they weren't aware of two phones? Is it possible that he had one phone and two SIMs. As per Anglo, Dan if you respond, be gentle.


I remember reading that Patrick had two phones. But that is only in my memory as I cannot find the article.

The other possibility is that there was only 1 phone, only ever 1 SIM and it was the Perugia postal police that screwed up when they pulled Patrick's phone record and they merged the records for the next phone too. This second SIM is never mentioned again once the phones get to the experts in Rome.

It comes down to what is more probable: A part time musician/owner of a bar that has to hire attractive girls and have them hand out fliers to get customers is going to the extra expense of having two cell phones when he can only use one at a time anyhow -- or -- The Perugia postal police screwed up again :eek:
 
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