Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I think resorting to bringing in racism in some form of ad hominem attack is purely a recognition that you have lost the logical argument so you have to resort to an emotional one. You know nothing about me or my attitude to other races.
Planigale,

Platonov made the same sorts of claims against me. Fortunately my public stances about the cases of Farah Jama, Eric Frimpong, and the multiple defendants in Tulia, Texas show how shallow and foolish a charge of racism is.
 
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My position is almost completely based on the phsyical evidence. They shoudl have left real evidence at the crime scene.
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There is no doubt in my mind that your position definitely increases the probability they are innocent, and along with the TOD evidence...

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My point is slightly different. He should at least know why he was not called by his own side. But I may well be missing something about their system. Why was Bongiorno criticising Mig for not scheduling Raf for cross when she could have done so herself? Their rules must be different.

Point taken. Thank you for reading. :p

The calm voice of reason, thank you for your response Mary and thank you also Anglolawyer.

You are welcome. I think it is something we have all wondered. There is no use pretending we understand the defense teams' strategies. To paraphrase anglo, I know I am definitely missing something about their system.
 
I have a question.

The Hellmann court wrote that A & K were innocent. Definitively innocent. They were innocent because they hadn't committed the crimes of which they'd been accused. The available evidence didn't just fail to convict them, it exonerated them.

How, then, could there not be reasonable doubt from the Nencini court? There was no new, compelling evidence. How could the Nencini court -- looking at the same exact body of evidence -- not be forced to conclude that their was at the very least reasonable doubt, by definition?

What am I missing about the Italian system here?
 
I asked you to be precise in the question you asked me to provide evidence for. You refused. It is your own lack of precision that has led you into error. You are still trying to change the argument from sexual assault for which RG was not charged to homicide with sexual aggravation a completely different offence.

Are you saying that when you typed sexual assault/murder you meant homicide with sexual aggravation as opposed to sexual assault and murder? I have provided definite evidence that RG was not charged with sexual assault of MK. That is a fact deny it if you want. If you are too lazy to look up the references it does not make me less truthful just you less prepared to be open to the truth. When I say AK and RS were charged with sexual assault that is a fact, denying it only makes you look wilfully ignorant.

I admit I have no way of knowing if MK family are happy that RG was not charged with sexual assault, I have no way of knowing if they are happy that AK and RS were charged. It just seems odd that the charges should differ. If you know why please explain***.

I think resorting to bringing in racism in some form of ad hominem attack is purely a recognition that you have lost the logical argument so you have to resort to an emotional one. You know nothing about me or my attitude to other races.


My precision was sufficient that you had to edit my quote by chopping off a sentence midpoint to make your last point as indeed it was on precisely what AK & RS were charged with.

If you wish to attack the Kercher family at least do so directly as Dan O did.

Your argument does not even rise to the level of sophistry.

And as you have now also reached the point of JAQing off – I think we are done.


ETA *** Given the earlier 'broken window perplexity' I doubt I could even if I was prepared to waste time trying.
 
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Mary_H said:
It's a good question, Coulsdon. As we have observed, the defense teams for both defendants did not do what it might have taken to win the case. Whether allowing Raffaele to testify would have helped, I don't know, but I know for a fact that Raffaele wanted to testify. Bongiorno must have some rationalization, whether legal, political or personal. In his book, Raffaele says that Bongiorno's position was, "They want Amanda."

I don't think Raffaele would have had to worry about cross examination. When Amanda testified, they didn't even ask her about the murder, only about the cottage and the interrogations.

anglo says it was Raffaele's case, he should have been calling the shots, but most young people and many older people don't look at lawyers and doctors as professionals they are paying for a service, they look at them as authority figures whose advice they have no choice but to follow.

It's possible that because Raffaele is a soft-spoken person, Bongiorno might have thought he would look weak. Since the prosecution was trying to establish that Amanda had led Raffaele around by the nose and made him do her bidding, Bongiorno might have wanted to avoid displaying his personality in the courtroom.

On the other hand, I think it is also possible that consciously and subconsciously everyone involved in the trials knew Amanda was the money name, and it was more efficient to invest their energy in her than have to spread it around.

My point is slightly different. He should at least know why he was not called by his own side. But I may well be missing something about their system. Why was Bongiorno criticising Mig for not scheduling Raf for cross when she could have done so herself? Their rules must be different.

My point is different still. Posters here claim "bafflement", but a very precise bafflement. Why did Amanda testify, but Raffaele did not.

Everything Raffaele needed to say, really, was made in his spontaneous declarations. It was specifically, "What does all this have to do with me?"

Bongiorno tells Raffaele the obvious: "They want Amanda". And they have to go through Raffaele to get to her.

Amanda DOES choose to testify. Where does this get her? She's not asked about the murder. This one I do not know - was she ever asked about the alleged transport of the kitchen knife, or about the alleged clean-up and/or staging?

But the upshot is that after her testimony, she's further charged with defamation because when asked, she says she was hit.

Part of this for me is that there is an attempt on "that side of the guilter fence" to allow Raffaele to look slightly better than Amanda for the choices he made, some of which for her own reasons Amanda made a different choice.

Raffaele is respected for staying in Italy... for going briefly to Austria, but when he hears of the Nencini verdict, he returns to Italy. Amanda chooses t stay in the USA, leading even Judge Nencini to say that she is legally abroad, even after convicting her.

In the midst of this there is a claimed "bafflement" that they might do things differently, because they have different outcome-possibilities at differing times. Amanda chooses to testify in 2009 because calunnia is part of it for her. Raffaele chooses not to testify in 2009 because how many times can one say, "I don't know what this is all about."?

Amanda is punished for testifying, and acc. to Nencini in 2014 Raffaele is punished for not.

And posters here second guess and admit bafflement at these decisions.

For me the reality is this - testify or not, the Nencini court has pretty much proven that the important issue is other than this. They were going to be convicted regardless.
 
Is it possible to find out when the environmental intercepts were placed in Patrick's bar?

It would be pointless while he was under arrest. And after his release the bar was still kept closed so the only time anyone would have access would be under police escort. Are they still running bugs many months later when Patrick gets he's bar back after he's been officially exonerated?

If you reject all the above, how about after Amanda's "confession" before Patrick is arrested? But they didn't even remember to record the 5:45, how could they think of installing more bugs? That finally leaves the period from November 2 through the 5. If that's the case, where did they get Patricks name?
 
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I think resorting to bringing in racism in some form of ad hominem attack is purely a recognition that you have lost the logical argument so you have to resort to an emotional one. You know nothing about me or my attitude to other races.

And as you have now also reached the point of JAQing off – I think we are done.
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JAQing off? Really?

How emotional of you,

d

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Is it possible to find out when the environmental intercepts were placed in Patrick's bar?

It would be pointless while he was under arrest. And after his release the bar was still kept closed so the only time anyone would have access would be under police escort. Are they still running bugs many months later when Patrick gets he's bar back after he's been officially exonerated?

If you reject all the above, how about after Amanda's "confession" before Patrick is arrested? But they didn't even remember to record the 5:45, how could they think of installing more bugs? That finally leaves the period from November 2 through the 5. If that's the case, where did they get Patricks name?
Tapping his phone? Checking out people he called or texted or who called or texted him? Pretty easy I would have thought.
 
More incomprehension I'm afraid.

As I posted at the time


Ahhh I see the problem here!

You neglected to carry on to post the question & answer that immediately followed the one you selectively quoted (ignorance or deliberate attempt to deceive?).

Anyhow, for your education and enlightenment, here are the two Q&As together (my parentheses for clarity):


Q: Sollecito's lawyers had asked you to separate the positions.

Nencini: We will explain in the sentencing report why we did not agree to this approach. In any case Sollecito decided never to be questioned in the trial.


Q: And this has influenced the choice to convict?

Nencini: It is a right of the accused (i.e. the right not to testify), but it certainly deprived the trial of his voice. He was limited to spontaneous statements, and (therefore) said only what he wanted without submitting to cross-examination.


I think perhaps you can see that it is Nencini's answer to the second question here that is relevant to this specific argument. The Q&A that you neglected to include. It's a shame that you didn't read the entire Nencini interview before commenting on my post.
 
No Bill, not this time. I really am mystified not that Raffaele did not give evidence but by the fact that he does not know why not. Of course LJ is right that adverse inferences cannot be drawn from that and if Nencini is doing so that would be great news for Raf's prospects in the ISC or, failing that, the ECHR but I don't get it. People may not know that the client is the boss, not the lawyer (nor the accountant, surveyor, architect, doctor etc etc). Ultimately, it was up to him whether he testified but, being young and all, he may not have understood he could assert himself if he wanted, ultimately to the point of sacking his lawyers and conducting his own defence.

I also stand by what I said that, without a lot of preparation, he would likely have made a lousy witness. He admits his naiëvety in his book and gives a horrifying account of his performance before Matteini. He also came up with the knife prick story. He was under the impression he either had to explain everything or he must be guilty.

This is what I don't get - and I am typing in the context of Nencini's (seemingly) open admission that for some reason the decision not to testify played a part (small or large) in the decision to convict him.

This is what I don't get: who really cares that Raffaele does not know why he did not get called by either his own lawyer or the other side.

It sounds to me like he actually listened to advice... which should not be taken to mean that he was led by the nose by Bongiorno. That's what people say about Raffaele isn't it: that he's easily led by strong women.

Piffle. It sounds to me like he was way, way out of his league in making these sorts of decisions - something even you imply with your remarks about what a lousy witness he would make. To me that sounds like self-awareness on his part. "Can't swim, better not jump in."

This is what I don't get. This side of Nencini Raffaele is being portrayed negatively for this decision - when it is plain no inference should be drawn. Nencini is being called on the carpet on March 11 for this very thing.

Not only is there a constant attempt to "separate AK and RS" in the courtroom, there is actually a reason for them to separate themselves from one another, with no inference being drawn by the fact of that separation. Tabloids and guilters say that this is the first sign of them turning on one another. That is simply not so.

Raffaele and Amanda faced differing perils, and needed to adopt different strategies. Indeed, the differeing strategy was that in the second trial, leading to acquittal, Bongiorno decided to actually act on, "They are after Amanda", and started to make concilatory remarks about Amanda (Jessica Rabbit).

The differing strategy Amanda's side played, even at that trial, was that they did not recorocate, adopting the same strategy of saying nice things about Raffaele. It wouldn't have mattered. They weren't after Raffaele to begin with. They would have dropped things against Raffaele in a heartbeat if he'd only rat out Amanda.

Losing in court is NOT the result of bad legal advice given to Knox or Sollecito, which is implied below the surface in all of this discussion on whether or not Raffaele should have testified.

Everyone can be baffled if they want. But it is also the adoption of a dangerous standard when people start to impugn motive to the differing strategy when it comes from one of the two choosing (with or without an articulated knowledge of why).
 
This is what I don't get - and I am typing in the context of Nencini's (seemingly) open admission that for some reason the decision not to testify played a part (small or large) in the decision to convict him.

This is what I don't get: who really cares that Raffaele does not know why he did not get called by either his own lawyer or the other side.

It sounds to me like he actually listened to advice... which should not be taken to mean that he was led by the nose by Bongiorno. That's what people say about Raffaele isn't it: that he's easily led by strong women.

Piffle. It sounds to me like he was way, way out of his league in making these sorts of decisions - something even you imply with your remarks about what a lousy witness he would make. To me that sounds like self-awareness on his part. "Can't swim, better not jump in."

This is what I don't get. This side of Nencini Raffaele is being portrayed negatively for this decision - when it is plain no inference should be drawn. Nencini is being called on the carpet on March 11 for this very thing.

Not only is there a constant attempt to "separate AK and RS" in the courtroom, there is actually a reason for them to separate themselves from one another, with no inference being drawn by the fact of that separation. Tabloids and guilters say that this is the first sign of them turning on one another. That is simply not so.

Raffaele and Amanda faced differing perils, and needed to adopt different strategies. Indeed, the differeing strategy was that in the second trial, leading to acquittal, Bongiorno decided to actually act on, "They are after Amanda", and started to make concilatory remarks about Amanda (Jessica Rabbit).

The differing strategy Amanda's side played, even at that trial, was that they did not recorocate, adopting the same strategy of saying nice things about Raffaele. It wouldn't have mattered. They weren't after Raffaele to begin with. They would have dropped things against Raffaele in a heartbeat if he'd only rat out Amanda.

Losing in court is NOT the result of bad legal advice given to Knox or Sollecito, which is implied below the surface in all of this discussion on whether or not Raffaele should have testified.

Everyone can be baffled if they want. But it is also the adoption of a dangerous standard when people start to impugn motive to the differing strategy when it comes from one of the two choosing (with or without an articulated knowledge of why).
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Point taken. Thank you for reading. :p



You are welcome. I think it is something we have all wondered. There is no use pretending we understand the defense teams' strategies. To paraphrase anglo, I know I am definitely missing something about their system.


There are two separate issues here - which Coulsdon was conflating. The first is whether Sollecito was strategically "correct" not to testify and subject himself to cross-examination. The second is whether he could/should have been penalised by the court for his decision not to testify.

To answer the first question is very difficult, and requires a whole host of intangible analyses and cost/benefit equations. For example, how much could Sollecito have risked harming his position by testifying, versus how much could he potentially benefit from putting himself forward to be questioned. As others have said, to figure this out would require an analysis of Sollecito's character and reaction to accusatory questions, an analysis of the skill and tenacity of the prosecutors, civil party lawyers and judges, a determination of how the trial was going up to that point. It's a difficult question to address.

On the other hand, the answer to the second question is laughably simple. It's "No".

And it was this second question that was entirely the issue related to Nencini's ill-judged post-verdict interview. And it was entirely the issue behind Sollecito's legal team's outrage. Not the first issue, which is an entirely different debate.


Incidentally, I believe that most criminal defence lawyers would tend towards keeping the majority of their clients off the stands (for reasons I've discussed here before), regardless of the factual innocence or otherwise of the client. And regardless of how accurate this maxim is, another maxim is undeniably true: the defendant should never testify unless the calculation is that such an action is likely to assist his/her defence more than it is likely to harm it. A decision not to testify should neither harm nor help a defence.

(Incidentally, Coulsdon might have received more calm responses to his questions if he hadn't kept repeating the incorrect and inflammatory mantra that some people were trying to "spin" this issue in favour of Sollecito. Just sayin'........)
 
My precision was sufficient that you had to edit my quote by chopping off a sentence midpoint to make your last point as indeed it was on precisely what AK & RS were charged with.

If you wish to attack the Kercher family at least do so directly as Dan O did.

Your argument does not even rise to the level of sophistry.

And as you have now also reached the point of JAQing off – I think we are done.


ETA *** Given the earlier 'broken window perplexity' I doubt I could even if I was prepared to waste time trying.

I am very happy to admit my arguments lack sophistry. I shall leave that to you.

I do not wish to attack the Kercher family, directly or indirectly. I do not wish to attack the Knox family directly or indirectly.

I am pleased you admit that I made my point; I note you are unable to refute it. I note that you accept I was precise in the charges that AK and RS were charged with including the particular article under the Italian Criminal code so there could be no uncertainty or weaselling by claiming to talk about sexually aggravated homicide having written sexual assault. I must say I assumed that everyone here knew that RG, RS and AK were all charged with murder this is a sort of common factor so this was a given. What was being discussed was the differences between the charges.

It is because you are evasive that I asked what your view was about the broken window; I know what the prosecution argued but like many people who argue for the guilt of AK and RS you prefer not to commit to details that may be refuted.
 
Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
It just seems pretty straight forward. Amanda testified, Raffaele didn’t.

Again, why wouldn’t Raffaele’s own counsel place him on the stand?

Obviously because he was guilty, right?

My guess is that they felt he couldn't really add much to defense except repeating he wasn't there but at his flat with Amanda. I don't think he is very glib and easily gets tripped up. His interview with Mansey is an example.

The point being made is that Nencini making the remark indicates he took into consideration the fact that he didn't testify which isn't proper, period. If a juror here said they decided on that basis the case would most likely be a mistrial.

Coulsdon wasn't my response calm? :(
 
I am having a different conversation to everyone else, I think. I am not suggesting Raf was badly advised or to blame for not giving evidence etc. I frankly don't know. I am just trying to understand their system better. There seems to be no principle of confrontation (which would have obliged Mignini to put his case to Amanda on the stand - 'I suggest you have told us a tissue of lies. You used the lamp to look for something, didn't you? You tried to clean away your bloody footprints, did you not? You went to Quintavalle's to buy something - west was it? etc etc). Defendants may lie (ridiculous). The prosecutor can schedule the defendant for examination. Defendants can make statements on which they can avoid being cross examined. And so on.
 
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