Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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Thats YOUR strawman. The fact is these arguments DO rely on the bible. Sorry, but its true

That doesn't mean that anyone using the arguments believes everything in the bible, thats your strawman

Its as simple as this: If there were no bible, would these arguments be used?

That's why we, on the critical thinking side ask for any extra biblical evidence. Josephus is the only thing I've ever seen come close

That's a truly bizarre argument. If there were no Bible, historians would not be seeking to explain the early Christian documents, and presumably the beginning of Christianity.

Well, if there were no Shakespeare plays, I suppose we would not be arguing about whether Hamlet is a coward or merely a modern man scrutinizing his own consciousness!

If there was no Elvis back catalogue, people would not come to blows about the merits of 'Wooden Heart' - this is true.
 
Eh? Are you sure you've thought about that? Of course there would be no such arguments, because the name of Jesus would never have been heard. It would have vanished, just as - how many? We can never know - the names of other peripatetic apolcalypticists of the period, and other periods, have completely vanished from the record without trace.

If there were no gospels there would be no cause to argue about someone whose very name has been forgotten.

And yet we have all sorts of just those types of figures talked about in history and in myth, some of them with actual evidence going for them
 
No statement in that huge collection of ancient works is in any way a reflection of reality? Nothing related there is in any sense factual? So, what you seem to mean is:

There is no statement in the NT that anyone ever knew a living Jesus, or that Paul ever met any person named as having known a living Jesus, or that Paul ever did anything that may be associated with any real historical context.

And anyway, Paul, the NT, the whole lot, are all intentional falsehoods compiled centuries later by unknown persons for the purposes of deception.

And anyone who disagrees in any way with any bit of the above scenario is a Bible believer, functionally equivalent to the craziest fundie. That is, if they're even being honest, which is doubtful. :confused:
That may be dejudge's stance, but it certainly isn't mine nor I believe IanS's stance either.
 
Also, the phrase 'relying on the bible' is an odd phrase

I don't find it odd at all. It's an attempt to rhetorically equate historical research and conclusion with theistic belief, in order to dismiss them both with one swipe.

I suppose for some atheists, 'relying on the bible' is a kind of gasp, horror, oh no, phrase, as if historians must scrupulously avoid any material which is - gasp, horror, oh no - religious.

Precisely. I should know: I've been there.
 
Also, the phrase 'relying on the bible' is an odd phrase, when HJ is in part an attempt to explain the existence of early Christian documents, and the development of Christianity. The parsimonious explanation is that these documents refer to an actual Jewish preacher, Jesus. Some mythical accounts strike me as either non-parsimonious or extremely speculative.
Okay. If you can use 'parsimony' then I can use 'the null hypothesis'. There isn't enough evidence to overcome it, in that case.



I suppose for some atheists, 'relying on the bible' is a kind of gasp, horror, oh no, phrase, as if historians must scrupulously avoid any material which is - gasp, horror, oh no - religious. This is quite odd when one is attempting to explain the development of a religion!
Seems like there's only one poster on JREF who believes that. Why the strawman?
 
I don't have to go thinking every single line of text is a lie, the null hypothesis is that none of it has any evidence for it.

Sure there is some historical corroboration of place names and such, but it doesnt matter for the same reason that there being a New York doesnt mean spider man is true

Yes, but that's not what people here are saying.

The point is that the existence of the text itself, and the religion that corresponds to it, is evidence. What conclusion can we draw from that ? Well, some people think it's insufficient to reach any conclusion. Others, who seem a bit more knowledgeable on the topic, from my point of view, seem to conclude a minimal Jesus. But ideologues on both sides of the debate will assert certainty: that there definitely WAS a Jesus, dammit, or that he's all-myth, full stop, also dammit.

I think the latter two positions are untenable. The two former are at least debatable.
 
I'd say that both you and these bible scholars most are definitely “relying” on the gospels and letters that comprise what we call the ”Bible”, for your belief in Jesus. And things only become “plausible” if they are supported by reliable and credible evidence …

... but the problem is that you don’t have any reliable source of credible evidence about Jesus, except for a wholly unreliable and incredible bible.

.

No statement in that huge collection of ancient works is in any way a reflection of reality? Nothing related there is in any sense factual? .



Well first of all (for what must be literally the 200th time now!) - we are only concerned with what the bible claims about Jesus, not what it may say about the existence of Jerusalem, or a church building, or any Roman officials etc.

And the question is whether the biblical writing is reliable and credible in what it’s anonymous writers believed about a messiah of legend who none of them ever knew in any way at all (except by belief in the supernatural). And the answer to that question is - NO! … No, a source like that, making constantly untrue claims about things they never knew, is most definitely neither reliable or credible in what it says about it’s religious messiah beliefs.



And by the way, you can add me to Norseman on the list of people who would be happy to accept that Jesus was probably real, providing you can produce any evidence at all to show that he probably was real … but the fact of the matter is that you actually have no evidence of anyone ever knowing a living Jesus at all (certainly not in the bible).

So, what you seem to mean is:
There is no statement in the NT that anyone ever knew a living Jesus, or that Paul ever met any person named as having known a living Jesus, or that Paul ever did anything that may be associated with any real historical context.

And anyway, Paul, the NT, the whole lot, are all intentional falsehoods compiled centuries later by unknown persons for the purposes of deception.

And anyone who disagrees in any way with any bit of the above scenario is a Bible believer, functionally equivalent to the craziest fundie. That is, if they're even being honest, which is doubtful. :confused:



What I mean is precisely what I said, thank you very much!

And what I have said (at least 200 times here now, literally 200 times!!), is that the biblical writing is not a reliable source for what any of those writers ever believed about Jesus (for all the many reasons I have listed here several times before), and they are also not credible in what they actually do say about a figure that none of them ever knew (a figure that they all believed as a matter of ancient religious legend).

Where is your evidence of anyone in the bible ever writing in any credible way to say they had known Jesus and where they give a reliable account of any traceable details about their knowledge of Jesus?

The problem throughout this entire thread (and in fact all such threads), is that like Piggy before you, and like all those in the massive HJ thread on RatSkep, and if it comes to that also like bible scholars such as Bart Ehrman and the rest, you absolutely cannot produce even one shred of any reliable evidence from any credible witness in the 1st century who ever wrote to give any traceable evidence of Jesus at all.

You simply don’t have any genuine evidence of Jesus. And, rather surprisingly, it seems, neither do any of your bible scholars!
 
Very odd indeed. The expression "relying on the Bible" is not a valid way of expressing the idea that theories about the origin of a religion or the degree of historicity of its foundation stories may be derived from an examination of its sacred texts. The expression "relying" is intended to mean that anyone who draws a conclusion from the content of these texts assumes them to be reliable.
Again I ask, if they are unreliable then how can reliable evidence come from it?


Of course that is not so, and that must be made clear at once, or the mythicists will spend the next hundred pages saying, yah-boo the HJers believe in the Bible; they're nothing but Christian fundies.
Who states that other than perhaps one poster on JREF?
 
Yes, 'relying on the Bible' is a kind of scare story, which might make atheists think that it equates to believing in the Bible! It's truly bizarre, since part of the task of HJ is to explain how the various early Christian documents came into being. It's like saying, 'explain how Shakespeare is the author of 'Hamlet' without referring to any of the plays'.
Seems to me that it's more like, 'explain Shakespeare's life by referring only to those plays.'
 
Craig B said:
No statement in that huge collection of ancient works is in any way a reflection of reality? Nothing related there is in any sense factual? So, what you seem to mean is:

There is no statement in the NT that anyone ever knew a living Jesus, or that Paul ever met any person named as having known a living Jesus, or that Paul ever did anything that may be associated with any real historical context.

And anyway, Paul, the NT, the whole lot, are all intentional falsehoods compiled centuries later by unknown persons for the purposes of deception.

And anyone who disagrees in any way with any bit of the above scenario is a Bible believer, functionally equivalent to the craziest fundie. That is, if they're even being honest, which is doubtful.

That may be dejudge's stance, but it certainly isn't mine nor I believe IanS's stance either.

Please, why are you doing this? You very well know I do not endorse the nonsense called HJ propagated by Craig B.

You very well know that Craig B thinks that anyone who disagrees with the QUESTERS are "functionally equivalent to the craziest fundie".

By the way, fundies [crazy or not] and Bible believers are on Craig B side so I don't know why he want to imply that they are crazy.

Fundies, Fundie Scholars, Bible believers, Bible believing Scholars typically argue that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of history and use the Bible, a source of fiction and myth, just like Craig B.

My position is extremely logical and is fully supported by the existing evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...i#List_of_all_registered_New_Testament_papyri

The Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century or later--the ONLY actual recovered and dated stories of Jesus story and cult are dated in the 2nd century or later.

I no longer accept assumptions and speculation--just actual recovered evidence from antiquity.

There is NO 1st century pre 70 CE evidence at all of the Jesus story and cult.

Until new evidence surfaces, the Jesus story and cult are products of the 2nd century or later.
 
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Seems to me that it's more like, 'explain Shakespeare's life by referring only to those plays.'

Well, they're both barmy ideas, since Shakepeare isn't a character in his plays and Jesus probably didn't write the gospels. That was my point - that asking, how would you argue if the Bible didn't exist, is also barmy, since it's the existence of the Bible (and other early Christian documents) which is part of the historical enquiry. It seems odd to discuss the provenance of the Bible without mentioning it!
 
Seems to me that it's more like, 'explain Shakespeare's life by referring only to those plays.'
If four of these plays purported to be biographies of Shakespeare, they would be worth studying by anyone wanting to explain the Bard's biography. Indeed it would be insane not to read them.
 
Actually, there have been attempts to infer aspects of Shakespeare's character from the plays - for example, quite a common idea is that he was a secret Catholic, based on various Catholic-sounding ideas in the plays.

But it's a risky business. For example, if a novelist writes about dodgy semi-criminal characters (as Joseph Conrad does sometimes), does this mean either he is a dodgy character, or wants to be? Not really.

But this is quite different from HJ, where we have actual documents which describe somebody (Jesus), and historians can argue about whether such a character did exist, or is mythical, or gasp! forged.
 
... You very well know that Craig B thinks that anyone who disagrees with the QUESTERS are "functionally equivalent to the craziest fundie".
No. I say that you believe anyone who analyses the NT for the purpose of discerning information is equivalent to a crazed fundie.
By the way, fundies [crazy or not] and Bible believers are on Craig B side so I don't know why he want to imply that they are crazy.
Yes, that's what I say you say.
Fundies, Fundie Scholars, Bible believers, Bible believing Scholars typically argue that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of history and use the Bible, a source of fiction and myth, just like Craig B.
Yes, that's what I say you say. All functionally the same.
 
Yeah, but it's a good way to avoid discussing the topic.

I think it's a good way to hijack the topic, so that it's no longer about historical method but about some other (unspecified) method, which relies on hard physical evidence, and which dispenses with various arguments. I'm not sure what to call this, Hystory maybe.
 
Actually, there have been attempts to infer aspects of Shakespeare's character from the plays - for example, quite a common idea is that he was a secret Catholic, based on various Catholic-sounding ideas in the plays.

But it's a risky business. For example, if a novelist writes about dodgy semi-criminal characters (as Joseph Conrad does sometimes), does this mean either he is a dodgy character, or wants to be? Not really.

But this is quite different from HJ, where we have actual documents which describe somebody (Jesus), and historians can argue about whether such a character did exist, or is mythical, or gasp! forged.



If Shakespeare (or in fact any figure in all of human history) was known only from the same "evidence" that we have for Jesus, then you certainly should conclude that there is in fact no reliable or credible evidence for their existence. To the contrary, you should in fact note that there is quite obvious and undeniable evidence to show why the claimed existence was/is likely to be only untrue fiction.


If Shakespeare (or anyone) was known only from -

1. Unknown writers who had never met Shakespeare.
2. Where those anonymous writers were merely repeating stories from other anonymous people who also had never met Shakespeare.
3. But where those anonymous informants believed there had been still earlier friends and associates who would therefore have known Shakespeare
4. But where no such friend or associate was ever produced or ever known to write confirming any such thing.
5. Where Shakespeare himself never wrote a single word about anything.
5. Where even all the above writing was only known from copyists writing centuries after the anonymous authors and anonymous sources were all thought to have died.
6. Where all the anonymous sources and their anonymous copyists all believed in the existence of Shakespeare as a result of religious beliefs they held in other religious books from many centuries before.
7. Where what they believed about Shakespeare was that he walked on water and raised the dead.
8. Where not a single person in the claimed lifetime of Shakespeare ever mentioned even his existence.
9. Where the one named writer who was not anonymous (“Paul”) claimed to know Shakespeare only because he had seen him in the sky after he was dead.
10. Where that same writer Paul, claimed he knew about Shakespeare entirely as a message from a heavenly God who told him to look in an ancient book of religious beliefs in the supernatural.
11. Where there is not even the tiniest fragment of any archaeological, physical or otherwise identifiable remains of any evidence whatsoever. Albeit, of course there have been numerous attempted fakes of such “evidence”.


… if that was your claimed “evidence” for the existence of Shakespeare (or any figure at all in all of history), then sensible educated people most certainly should conclude that such “evidence” is very far short of any standard sufficient to conclude that the person probably existed.
 
Well, they're both barmy ideas, since Shakepeare isn't a character in his plays and Jesus probably didn't write the gospels. That was my point - that asking, how would you argue if the Bible didn't exist, is also barmy, since it's the existence of the Bible (and other early Christian documents) which is part of the historical enquiry. It seems odd to discuss the provenance of the Bible without mentioning it!
My point simply is that the majority of the people arguing the MJ side don't seem to be arguing what you say they are.


If four of these plays purported to be biographies of Shakespeare, they would be worth studying by anyone wanting to explain the Bard's biography. Indeed it would be insane not to read them.
Fair point. To read them, but always with the notion that we won't know with any real level of certainty if these purported biographies are in any way accurate and most especially if these biographies are full of fanciful stories. If these biographies were only comprised of events which, for the most part, can be verified through other sources, then I don't think it'd be any big deal to take them at face-value accurate.


Actually, there have been attempts to infer aspects of Shakespeare's character from the plays - for example, quite a common idea is that he was a secret Catholic, based on various Catholic-sounding ideas in the plays.

But it's a risky business. For example, if a novelist writes about dodgy semi-criminal characters (as Joseph Conrad does sometimes), does this mean either he is a dodgy character, or wants to be? Not really.

But this is quite different from HJ, where we have actual documents which describe somebody (Jesus), and historians can argue about whether such a character did exist, or is mythical, or gasp! forged.
If all we knew of Joseph Conrad were his books, I think many people would infer quite a lot about his character through the works he wrote.
 
No. I say that you believe anyone who analyses the NT for the purpose of discerning information is equivalent to a crazed fundie. Yes, that's what I say you say. Yes, that's what I say you say. All functionally the same.

What a big lie.

I do not believe such absurdities.

The same fundies that you are calling crazy are on your side arguing that HJ did exist using the same Bible too.
 
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