Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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LJ,

PAYG?? Is that the local acronym in London for Pay as you go?? Never heard that one here.
 
LondonJohn said:
This would not be possible in a PAYG environment where pre-paid SIM cards could be bought over the counter for cash.

In the UK, for example, it is utterly impossible for anybody - whether the police or the mobile operators - to discover the identity of someone who has bought a pre-paid SIM card using cash, even if they know the mobile number (or, for that matter the SIM number or even the IMSI number).

But...... a relevant factor for Italy is that there is now anti-terrorism legislation in place there that mandates the registration of all SIMs (whether contract or PAYG) using official identification. I do not currently know whether this legislation was in place in 2007 (and/or if Lumumba's initial purchase of his PAYG SIMs predated any legislation).

If Lumumba's SIMs were subject to such registration in 2007, then the police would have been able to discover his identity and name simply by knowing his mobile number. However, I'd even caveat that by suggesting that even since this legislation was introduced, there are very likely plenty of black-market work-arounds whereby people can get working SIMs without having to register. For example, I've read industry reports that claim that plenty of mobile operators where such registration is mandatory (e.g. Greece and Italy) turn a blind eye to unregistered SIMs but simply omit them from their official subscriber figures.
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Is it known whether he used a prepaid phone?

My quick research leads me to believe that the prepaids, there as here, are more expensive. If we don't know that Patrick's phones were prepaids, I would think for the current exercise we would assume they weren't.
 
they were twizzled

LondonJohn said:
I do not currently have access to the various print books, but have done a quick online search. Strangely, the most specific mention of police tailing Knox over those days that I can currently find comes courtesy of our friend The Machine over on TJMK (my bolding).
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LondonJohn,

IMO this is one more piece of information indicating that they were suspects in fact well before the his 'n hers interrogations.
 
acbytesla said:
LJ,

PAYG?? Is that the local acronym in London for Pay as you go?? Never heard that one here.
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It certainly is. PAYG is a far more popular system of getting mobile services - particularly among teenagers - in the UK (and across Europe) than it is in the US.

The acronym refers to the requirement to "top up" your SIM with cash on an ongoing basis: the money has to be loaded onto your SIM account before you can make calls. But again, this topping up can be done entirely anonymously: all you need is cash and the number of the mobile that you want to top up.
 
Grinder said:
Is it known whether he used a prepaid phone?

My quick research leads me to believe that the prepaids, there as here, are more expensive. If we don't know that Patrick's phones were prepaids, I would think for the current exercise we would assume they weren't.
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The vast majority of mobile connections in Italy are prepaid. I think that in 2007 something like 80% of all subscribers were on prepaid.

I have travelled and worked in Italy quite a lot, and have gained a good deal of insight into how people use mobile phones. It's commonplace for people to have more than one SIM card - all of them prepaid - and to be constantly switching between them depending on which one has credit on it, which one has offers, or which one they prefer to use for incoming calls. This is true even of office workers.

From what I know of Lumumba - and I know, for instance, that he had multiple SIMs and that he was in the habit of changing them regularly - he almost certainly did use prepaid SIMs. What's more, there is a big black- and grey-market in prepaid SIMs in Italy, and I suspect that Lumumba might be the sort of person who would exploit these sorts of shady deals.

So, in contrast to you, I am inclined to think that the known evidence means that we should tend to assume that Lumumba's SIMs were of the prepaid variety, until and unless we get information that they were in fact contract SIMs.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
LondonJohn,

IMO this is one more piece of information indicating that they were suspects in fact well before the his 'n hers interrogations.
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This is, as mentioned by many, a continual sore point among hard core guilters. Like The Machine/Harry Rag.

Their vague scenarios always have Knox and Sollecito drawing attention to themselves, so much so it was right for them to be suspected.

However, once in their 5th/6th interrogation, suddenly all suspicions about them, Knox particularly, have to be ignored.... because Knox was supposed to have "spontaneously" said things, and the PLE was supposed to have been in no position to have led them anywhere.

It was all supposed to have started with Raffaele, supposedly, withdrawing his alibi for Knox.

Why would that have been an issue if Knox was not already a suspect? I mean, couldn't she have just gone out for a long walk?

No. For some reason, Raffaele, "withdrawing his alibi," meant something further suspicious.

Guilters cannot have this both ways. (Apparently they can, the kids kids are convicted.)
 
Chris_Halkides said:
LondonJohn,

IMO this is one more piece of information indicating that they were suspects in fact well before the his 'n hers interrogations.
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I'm not sure if this is helpful here, I thought this article in the Sunday Times by John Follain from November the 4th was well known, quote

" Police were yesterday trying to trace Kercher's "occasional" Italian boyfriend, but they have not ruled out the possibility that her killer was a woman."

Here is the link.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/article74799.ece

In other words the police suspect Amanda Knox of being the killer before this date.
 
a roaring blaze

Samson said:
I'm not sure if this is helpful here, I thought this article in the Sunday Times by John Follain from November the 4th was well known, quote

" Police were yesterday trying to trace Kercher's "occasional" Italian boyfriend, but they have not ruled out the possibility that her killer was a woman."

Here is the link.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/article74799.ece

In other words the police suspect Amanda Knox of being the killer before this date.
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Thanks; that is one more log on the fire. Some time ago Malkmus turned up a couple of links to news items that also pointed in the same direction. There was an Italian story that apparently appeared on the 5th that said something like, "Ominous words: it is not to be discounted that in the next few hours witnesses will be converted into suspects." He also provided a link to a retrospective article by Castellini where he implies that the police told reporters not talk to Raffaele or Amanda, because an arrest was imminent. And we could go on...
 
Desert Fox said:
Used them in a story. . . . .Problem is that the character in my story would not get caught by the police.
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Ever see the television series The Wire?

There is a great deal of explanation about drug dealers and burner phones and how the drug dealers would swap the phones out very regularly and how the investigators adapted to those practices and then how the drug dealers adapted to the investigation techniques with the phones.

This was one of the best television series I've ever watched.
 
acbytesla said:
Ever see the television series The Wire?

There is a great deal of explanation about drug dealers and burner phones and how the drug dealers would swap the phones out very regularly and how the investigators adapted to those practices and then how the drug dealers adapted to the investigation techniques with the phones.

This was one of the best television series I've ever watched.
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I don't watch very many TV series. . . .Sorry
Just I don't see Amanda as some kind of criminal mastermind
The character in my stories though would not be so stupid to kill a roommate
 
Desert Fox said:
I don't watch very many TV series. . . .Sorry
Just I don't see Amanda as some kind of criminal mastermind
The character in my stories though would not be so stupid to kill a roommate
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I don't either. But that was a good one It's like the Sopranos or Breaking Bad. Just well done..great writing, great acting...I'd recommend watching it. I bet you can downloaded it or buy the seasons on Amazon. watch one or two episodes and you're hooked.

Of course Amanda isn't a criminal mastermind. She was a twenty year old college student and barista from a middle class Seattle family.
 
If I am reading the google-fish translation of Sisani's testimony (2009-03-20) correctly, only one phone of Patrick's was analyzed. This phone was a Nokia model 6070 with a sim card managed by the cellular operator Vodafone. While Amanda's reply was found in Patrick's phone and was identical to the text of the message in Amanda's phone, there was no record of the outgoing message that Patrick sent to Amanda. This phone had a feature that allowed the user to opt to not save outgoing texts. This is how Patrick's phone was configured so there is no controversy for the text of the message not being found. But the phone would still keep a log that the message was sent and this record did not exist.

An additional tidbit, Patrick turns off his phone at the same time as Amanda and Raffaele:
ANSWER - We verified that almost simultaneously all three subjects, their phones stop generate traffic more or less ...
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A question was asked earlier as to whether other phones were tapped. The answer is yes including the phones of Romanelli, Mezzetti, Guede and Lumumba. Amanda and Raffaele's phones were tapped on day 2. Even Patrick's bar was bugged.
 
acbytesla said:
I don't either. But that was a good one It's like the Sopranos or Breaking Bad. Just well done..great writing, great acting...I'd recommend watching it. I bet you can downloaded it or buy the seasons on Amazon. watch one or two episodes and you're hooked.

Of course Amanda isn't a criminal mastermind. She was a twenty year old college student and barista from a middle class Seattle family.
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I thought about creating as story where somebody is framed for a murder but what happened with Amanda is too far fetched for many people to believe in a story. Too ham handed.
 
Dan O. said:
If I am reading the google-fish translation of Sisani's testimony (2009-03-20) correctly, only one phone of Patrick's was analyzed. This phone was a Nokia model 6070 with a sim card managed by the cellular operator Vodafone. While Amanda's reply was found in Patrick's phone and was identical to the text of the message in Amanda's phone, there was no record of the outgoing message that Patrick sent to Amanda. This phone had a feature that allowed the user to opt to not save outgoing texts. This is how Patrick's phone was configured so there is no controversy for the text of the message not being found. But the phone would still keep a log that the message was sent and this record did not exist.

An additional tidbit, Patrick turns off his phone at the same time as Amanda and Raffaele:

ANSWER - We verified that almost simultaneously all three subjects, their phones stop generate traffic more or less ...
​
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A question was asked earlier as to whether other phones were tapped. The answer is yes including the phones of Romanelli, Mezzetti, Guede and Lumumba. Amanda and Raffaele's phones were tapped on day 2. Even Patrick's bar was bugged.
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Wow!!! That answers a lot of questions. That means that they almost certainly were suspecting Patrick and Amanda pretty quickly. MORONS.
 
Dan O. said:
A question was asked earlier as to whether other phones were tapped. The answer is yes including the phones of Romanelli, Mezzetti, Guede and Lumumba. Amanda and Raffaele's phones were tapped on day 2. Even Patrick's bar was bugged.
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And nobody said anything incriminating. . . .Hmm
 
Desert Fox said:
I thought about creating as story where somebody is framed for a murder but what happened with Amanda is too far fetched for many people to believe in a story. Too ham handed.
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That's what makes this so bizarre. Amanda and Raffaele seem like the least likely people to commit a murder. It would have to have that North by Northwest feel to it. Hitchcock could do this story...the only real problem with this story is that it just goes on and on and on.

I actually think that I'd love to tell the story focused on Raffaele. I mean, it's never really about Raffaele, he just suffers the consequences.
 
acbytesla said:
That's what makes this so bizarre. Amanda and Raffaele seem like the least likely people to commit a murder. It would have to have that North by Northwest feel to it. Hitchcock could do this story...the only real problem with this story is that it just goes on and on and on.

I actually think that I'd love to tell the story focused on Raffaele. I mean, it's never really about Raffaele, he just suffers the consequences.
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Really sucks for him is that there is at least a decent (if not very good) chance that she can fight extradition. When the Italian supreme court comes down, he is locked up however.
 
acbytesla said:
That's what makes this so bizarre. Amanda and Raffaele seem like the least likely people to commit a murder. It would have to have that North by Northwest feel to it. Hitchcock could do this story...the only real problem with this story is that it just goes on and on and on.

I actually think that I'd love to tell the story focused on Raffaele. I mean, it's never really about Raffaele, he just suffers the consequences.
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Hitchcock actually did an excellent movie about a man who is falsely accused of armed robbery. It is called The Wrong Man and it is based on a true story. Henry Fonda plays a character not too unlike Raffaele, soft-spoken and bewildered by the situation in which he finds himself.
 
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