Problems with forgiveness

[Frozenwolf150]

I hold grudges for a very very long time.

I don't know if it's because I'm not a religious person, but it's nearly impossible for me to forgive those who have wronged me. It's not that I don't know the purpose of forgiveness. It doesn't mean you let the person get away with it. You forgive so that the anger and obsession don't tear you apart on the inside, so that the pain doesn't remain with you and continue to affect your life. You forgive so that you can let go of past injustices and move on.

However, I can't even bring myself to do that.

It doesn't matter if it's been a year, or five years, or ten years or more. Often when I'm alone with my thoughts, I will find myself obsessing over incidents where people have wronged me. I will end up replaying the details in my head, thinking of ways I'd like to hurt them back and make them suffer for what they've done. In most cases, the punishment I'd like to exact on them far exceeds the initial offense. And yet I feel completely justified in calling for an imbalanced punishment, wishing revenge not only on the people who wronged me, but on those close to them as well.

At the risk of sounding like a complete psychopath, there have been times I've fantasized about hunting down people who have hurt me, bullied me, insulted me, or hurt the ones I love, and making them pay dearly. I've imagined them dead by my hand. I've thought of how it would be worth it to sacrifice my life and my freedom just to watch them scream in agony. Whatever it takes to send a message, and then some.

Intellectually, I know these emotions are bad for me. I know I would be better off without them. However, I can't seem to overcome them. I've tried talking my way through them with my friends, my counselors, and my therapists. I've tried occupying my mind on other, more constructive things. I've tried allowing time to pass to see if that helps heal the wounds. Nothing works. I always return to the obsessions on the worst days of my life, and no amount of positive experiences can make up for them.

I suppose my question is directed at both the religious and non-religious members of this forum. This isn't meant to be a debate between the two sides. I'm asking here because I want to see what different people from different backgrounds and beliefs have to say. How do you find it in your heart to forgive someone who has wronged you?

 

[theprestige]

For me, forgiveness is a choice. My emotions are what they are. Sometimes I get over a thing, sometimes I don't. Forgiveness is something I choose, something I believe, not something I feel.

For me, forgiveness has no value if it's a slave to my emotions. Forgiveness is meaningful to me precisely because it's something I choose whether I feel it or not. Though, when my feelings are strong, that choice is hard--sometimes too hard.

Though I find that when I choose forgiveness, when I believe in forgiveness, it helps with the emotions I feel.

And also, it feels good to forgive. Sometimes--often, too often!--it doesn't feel good enough to outweigh the other emotions, the emotions against forgiveness. But it does feel good, and I try to use that when I can. I'd rather live that way, with my emotions in service to my intellect, my choices making use of my feelings, than the other way around.






My advice: Choose to forgive. Let your emotions come and go in their own time, and their own way.

 

[Navigator]

How do you find it in your heart to forgive someone who has wronged you?

I detest the feeling of holding grudges, wanting revenge, being obsessively angry...people try it on and sometimes succeed but I see they play a game I am not interested in participating in.

Fortunately I am aware that there have been times when I have wronged others, and also there have been opportunities to say sorry. That helps understand how easy it can be to offend/hurt others, even being that it was not always even intentional.

Actually I go out of my way not to purposefully hurt others.

Forgiveness works best for the one doing the forgiving.

You seem to be someone who simply likes the feeling of holding grudges and participating in mind fantasies. Maybe it is a bit of an addiction?

One other thing. When you hold a grudge for a wrong done to you, you essentially empower the wrong-doer to have more of a say over how you act than your own self has.

Another thing to be aware of is that holding onto these things obsessively will have an affect on those you interact with - it may not be something you even notice as it may be very subtle but it can still work against you, and your relationships with others.

 

[marplots]

Grudges aren't so bad. They give us an excuse to act in the way we want to act anyhow.

 

[theprestige]

Grudges aren't so bad. They give us an excuse to act in the way we want to act anyhow.

I think you misspelled "grudges are horrible".

 

[Wolfman]

I think there's a huge difference between not forgiving someone, and actively holding a grudge.

There are people -- particularly those close to me -- who I have forgiven for various wrongs. Because hey...sometimes, people **** up. Gawd knows, I've done things in the past that needed a great deal of forgiveness from others.

In those situations where I forgive, there are three necessities: first, it must be someone that I already have a strong relationship with; second, it must be something that is not normal for them (ie. it's not something that happens regularly); and third, I must be convinced that they are truly sorry, and that they intend to never do such a thing again.

But outside of that, I don't forgive. And I don't forget. You had a chance, you blew it, that's it. I'm not going to waste time/energy/effort on you, I have more important things, and more important people, to focus on.

And that's where I differ from you. I don't seek revenge. I don't dream of retaliation, I don't obsess over a personal grudge. Because the moment I do that, I am granting those ******** the power to diminish the quality and happiness of my life. I'll simply ignore them (or, where impossible to ignore, such as a colleague, will not trust them or engage with them beyond what is necessary according to the requirements of the situation).

Anger, regret, frustration...none of these are emotions that lend anything to improving mylife, to making me happier, more productive, more successful, etc. So why let some ******* who did something wrong to me cause those emotions? I'd far rather spend my time, energy, and efforts on things that are taking me forward, that are improving the quality of my life, that are enhancing the quality of the friendships with people I do trust, etc.

 

[fuelair]

I hold grudges for a very very long time.

I don't know if it's because I'm not a religious person, but it's nearly impossible for me to forgive those who have wronged me. It's not that I don't know the purpose of forgiveness. It doesn't mean you let the person get away with it. You forgive so that the anger and obsession don't tear you apart on the inside, so that the pain doesn't remain with you and continue to affect your life. You forgive so that you can let go of past injustices and move on.

However, I can't even bring myself to do that.

It doesn't matter if it's been a year, or five years, or ten years or more. Often when I'm alone with my thoughts, I will find myself obsessing over incidents where people have wronged me. I will end up replaying the details in my head, thinking of ways I'd like to hurt them back and make them suffer for what they've done. In most cases, the punishment I'd like to exact on them far exceeds the initial offense. And yet I feel completely justified in calling for an imbalanced punishment, wishing revenge not only on the people who wronged me, but on those close to them as well.

At the risk of sounding like a complete psychopath, there have been times I've fantasized about hunting down people who have hurt me, bullied me, insulted me, or hurt the ones I love, and making them pay dearly. I've imagined them dead by my hand. I've thought of how it would be worth it to sacrifice my life and my freedom just to watch them scream in agony. Whatever it takes to send a message, and then some.

Intellectually, I know these emotions are bad for me. I know I would be better off without them. However, I can't seem to overcome them. I've tried talking my way through them with my friends, my counselors, and my therapists. I've tried occupying my mind on other, more constructive things. I've tried allowing time to pass to see if that helps heal the wounds. Nothing works. I always return to the obsessions on the worst days of my life, and no amount of positive experiences can make up for them.

I suppose my question is directed at both the religious and non-religious members of this forum. This isn't meant to be a debate between the two sides. I'm asking here because I want to see what different people from different backgrounds and beliefs have to say. How do you find it in your heart to forgive someone who has wronged you?

As a person who firmly believes in hand-delivered retribution for those who do things to children generally, friends/family specifically and me, I understand how you feel. However, I do not dwell on minor things of that type - waste of time and energy and possibly if carried too far a signal of a need for assistance in rebalancing. Big ones, on the other hand I prefer to handle either immediately with no evidence of my involvement or long enough after the occurrence that I am not suspected. And, the retribution has no need to be criminal in nature - all sorts of things can be done with careful comments and suggestions. None of these would, of course attach to crimes of most any nature done to me/mine. Those need full retribution - which I have covered in many places on these threads. For several of them prison would not be acceptable.

 

[Myriad]

Don't underestimate the subversive power of forgiveness. Forgiving might seem like a cop-out or forfeit, but it's not. (I'm pretty sure it was invented by a Slytherin.)

Blame can be deflected or refused; punishment can be escaped or outlasted; shame can be defied or ignored. Forgiveness, you're just stuck with.

Les Miserables exaggerates the point to a melodramatic extreme, but there's a grain of truth there.

Try this experiment. Go to a message board where homophobes argue.* Call them bigots, call them haters, call them every negative thing you can think of. Watch them remain unfazed. Tell them you forgive them for being what they are and doing what they do. Watch them kick and scream.

Respectfully,
Myriad

*I'd advise, not this one, though. Because the experiment involves clear personalization of the argument, which is frowned upon here.

 

[tsig]

I hold grudges for a very very long time.

I don't know if it's because I'm not a religious person, but it's nearly impossible for me to forgive those who have wronged me. It's not that I don't know the purpose of forgiveness. It doesn't mean you let the person get away with it. You forgive so that the anger and obsession don't tear you apart on the inside, so that the pain doesn't remain with you and continue to affect your life. You forgive so that you can let go of past injustices and move on.

However, I can't even bring myself to do that.

It doesn't matter if it's been a year, or five years, or ten years or more. Often when I'm alone with my thoughts, I will find myself obsessing over incidents where people have wronged me. I will end up replaying the details in my head, thinking of ways I'd like to hurt them back and make them suffer for what they've done. In most cases, the punishment I'd like to exact on them far exceeds the initial offense. And yet I feel completely justified in calling for an imbalanced punishment, wishing revenge not only on the people who wronged me, but on those close to them as well.

At the risk of sounding like a complete psychopath, there have been times I've fantasized about hunting down people who have hurt me, bullied me, insulted me, or hurt the ones I love, and making them pay dearly. I've imagined them dead by my hand. I've thought of how it would be worth it to sacrifice my life and my freedom just to watch them scream in agony. Whatever it takes to send a message, and then some.

Intellectually, I know these emotions are bad for me. I know I would be better off without them. However, I can't seem to overcome them. I've tried talking my way through them with my friends, my counselors, and my therapists. I've tried occupying my mind on other, more constructive things. I've tried allowing time to pass to see if that helps heal the wounds. Nothing works. I always return to the obsessions on the worst days of my life, and no amount of positive experiences can make up for them.

I suppose my question is directed at both the religious and non-religious members of this forum. This isn't meant to be a debate between the two sides. I'm asking here because I want to see what different people from different backgrounds and beliefs have to say. How do you find it in your heart to forgive someone who has wronged you?

I always forgive my enemies but first I get even.

 

[wrs]

I hold grudges for a very very long time.

The problem was you in the first place. You allowed those things to happen to you in the first place. For the most part we all do that. Most of what we have to forgive is our expectation that we had of the way someone else should behave. If we don't have any great expectation then anything someone else does isn't going to affect us because we can either see it coming and avoid it or we can live with whatever the behavior is. Thus, there is no need to forgive, better just to forget and move on.

That is your real problem, forgetting, not forgiving. Your mind is spinning this stuff up and remembering it. It's a waste of mental energy when you could be looking at why you have expectations that can't be met. Lower your expectations and look at the world around you in a different way. Start practicing that on all the current people and things in your life and see if you can't start forgetting this irrelevant crap that is coming up in your mind.

I know how this works because my youngest son is schizo effective and this happens to him on a regular basis. He has some really ridiculous (from my point of view) incidents that he will regularly go back to from high school and get stuck in a loop on them. I don't know that he ever considers the issue of forgiveness but it's the same thing, you have to avoid people and situations that are likely to bring harm to you. That is a very good start and I suspect if you are like my son, and I think you are based on your posting history that I have read, this will work. When my son does this, he lives better.

So in conclusion, start being more aware of your current world. Be more cynical and don't expect much of it. Look for where the bumps in the road are and realize that people mostly have something they want from you. If you can figure out what that is in advance, then you can adjust your expectations appropriately. Getting the expectations correct in the first place will remove the need for forgiveness later.

 

[Cayvmann]

Impotent rage will just give you an ulcer. If you are not going to actually do anything about it, dwelling on revenge fantasies will just eat you up. Also if you actually do something about it, will your conscience leave you alone for what you did do?

Forgiveness, for me, means that I don't let things that I can't, or won't, do anything about ruin my life. There's crap that was done to me, then there's crap that I do. I focus on what I can or will do. If other people piss me off, or otherwise crap on me, I do whatever I do and then move on. No time for dwelling on crap I can't do anything about. Depending on the severity of the injury to me, I will forgive and still have that person in my life, or not. I try not to keep relationships that are toxic.

I never forget, though. Forgetting leads to repetition. "Fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" right?

 

[Manopolus]

I'm just the opposite. I don't tend to condemn anybody for anything. I've even been known to mention that Hitler was also a human. That doesn't mean that I condone atrocities. I just understand how they can sometimes happen, and don't spend a lot of time worrying about that sort of thing. I actually find it sort of fascinating how people can sometimes act in ways that are irrational, sadistic, or whatever way you'd like to describe a given bad behavior. Strangely enough, we can usually find the same sorts of motivations inside ourselves if we look hard enough.

 

[tsig]

I'm just the opposite. I don't tend to condemn anybody for anything. I've even been known to mention that Hitler was also a human. That doesn't mean that I condone atrocities. I just understand how they can sometimes happen.

That fact is what should really scare everyone.

We all have Hitlers within us.

 

[Aepervius]

I never forgive anybody not asking for forgiveness first. Why should I ? I am not christian so i am not admonished to show my left cheek. And if somebody slight me , there is no reason i pardon them if they show no incentive to recognize they were in error.

 

[marplots]

I think you misspelled "grudges are horrible".

Ah, but they aren't. They give me social permission to act like a jerk to those I feel deserve it. And I can do so without having some permanent character flaw - I'm only adopting the jerkiness in response to someone else's foul act.

Jesus had a great remedy for this, but it's not nearly as satisfying, nor as popular as revenge.

 

[Dinwar]

I'm not a big fan of forgiveness. Sometimes yes, people change; sometimes they make stupid errors that are one-off events. However, in my experience most people asking for forgiveness want you to pretend that the event never happened--they want you to correct their errors by pretending they didn't happen. That pretty much ensures that they'll happen again. Those who don't learn from history and all that.

Most stupid, one-off errors are stuff you can brush off. Someone kept a book of mine. Meh; I got it for $5 while in the field, and it's not a big deal. Stuff like that. Or I screwed up learning to drive a stick shift and tapped someone's bumper. Neither car was damaged, no one was hurt, and the guy agreed that there was no need to go any further. Stuff that probably won't happen again, and even if it does is at worst a minor inconvenience.

For bigger stuff, the things they ask for forgiveness for reveal a lot about a person's character. They commited those actions; that is a fact. How they deal with them is also a fact. Do they try to explain themselves? If so, does the explanation make sense? Do they try to manipulate you? Do they demand special magic words (I cannot tell you how many people refuse to accept an apology without the incantation "I'm sorry"--or how many people expect ME to say it when I'M the one who was hurt!)? Do they come up with ways to avoid it happening in the future? Or do they expect you to act as though it never happened, to pretend that they never made that error? All of that tells you a great deal about the person you're dealing with. Someone that tells you "It's all your fault anyway", for example, is looking for a blank check to do whatever they want to you--after all, anything they do to hurt you is really you doing it to yourself. Not exactly the type of person I want to hang out with.

I don't forgive, not the way most people think of the term anyway. What I do is re-evaluate my relationship with the person. Sometimes, the action is so vile that it ruins our relationship. I have former friends that I wouldn't lift a finger to help, even if they were dying; they have done things so evil that while I won't kill them, they mean less to me than any random stranger. Sometimes, the action is a minor annoyance and is the price of dealing with another human being. The friend is worth it. Sometimes the action requires me to distance myself from a friend. We're still friends, but we're not as close as we used to be. With the exception of my wife, my relationships are on a sliding scale, and can be moved closer or further away as events and actions dictate.

At the risk of sounding like a complete psychopath, there have been times I've fantasized about hunting down people who have hurt me, bullied me, insulted me, or hurt the ones I love, and making them pay dearly.

That's cute. Not that you have those feelings, but that you think merely having those fantasies makes you a psychopath. No less then three people are alive today because someone convinced me to put the blade down. Once my wife (then my girlfriend) provided a coherent argument for delay. Twice it was "If you leave this house I'll kill you myself." Takes on a whole new meaning when everyone involved has knives in their hand. Some things justify such actions--the one with my wife involved a potential kidnapping, and the other two sexual assualt on minors.

I'm generally considered well-adjusted, easy-going, and likeable. There are only a handful of people who would consider me a potential psychopath (and most of them do so because they refuse to listen to me when I describe my philosophy; it has nothing to do with my actions). And I'm not unique, either in my family or where I grew up. Most people I know have stories like that. And quite a few people I know have either done or been prevented (by a VERY thin margine) from doing far, far worse.

Merely having feelings of anger, or fantasies about revenge, doesn't make you a bad person, much less a psychopath. It makes you a human. We ALL have such fantasies, whether we're willing to admit it or not. The fact that you're willing to admit it means you're more honest than most, that's all. And frankly, I never trust people who DON'T have such fantasies from time to time. Anyone capable of love must necessarily be capable of hatred. They stem from the same source, and having the capacity for one without the capacity for the other is a contradiction. Love is the emotional response to our highest values. Hatred is the emotional response to threats to our highest values. Only people who value nothing are incapable of hatred--and the only people who value nothing are corpses or lunatics. Again, not the type of people I like to hang out with.

All of that said, I've known since I was 5 that my propensity towards violence requires the strictest of moral codes. I've actually done some fairly significant psychological damage to myself ensuring that if I'm going to engage in violence it is 100% morally justified. Because if you slip up to any degree, if you err AT ALL, the only rational course for someone like me is suicide. That's another thing that takes on a whole new meaning when it becomes a very real possibility. Because I am willing to kill, I don't have the option of screwing up; morality is a matter of life and death, in very real and very immediate terms.

And that's where I differ from you. I don't seek revenge. I don't dream of retaliation, I don't obsess over a personal grudge. Because the moment I do that, I am granting those ******** the power to diminish the quality and happiness of my life.

Nope. I'm pretty sure it's the person that tried to rape my relatives that diminished the quality and happiness of my life. It's not a question of whether or not those aspects will be deminished, but by how much. And if throwing away the quality and happiness of my life keeps those close to me from suffering unmitigated horror for the rest of theirs, I'm inclined to do it.

 

[tsig]

I never forgive anybody not asking for forgiveness first. Why should I ? I am not christian so i am not admonished to show my left cheek. And if somebody slight me , there is no reason i pardon them if they show no incentive to recognize they were in error.

If you turn the other cheek then whatever hit you on the one will hit you on the other, twice as hard.

 

[Explorer]

Forgiveness should only be handed out if it is wanted by the recipient. The recipient must genuinely crave for it and understand that although the bad deed done was difficult to forgive, nevertheless they will be forgiven. Both the forgiver and the forgiven should obtain relief and benefit from the process in equal measures.

Other than with those caveats, no forgiveness, in my book.

 

[theprestige]

But outside of that, I don't forgive. And I don't forget. You had a chance, you blew it, that's it. I'm not going to waste time/energy/effort on you, I have more important things, and more important people, to focus on.

I think there's a huge difference between choosing to forgive someone, and choosing not to waste time on an unproductive or counter-productive relationship with someone.

There are a few people I've forgiven for the things they did, but I've also ended any relationship with them because the things they did were part of a pattern that wasn't going to to change and wasn't healthy for me.

 

[Dinwar]

Forgiveness should only be handed out if it is wanted by the recipient. The recipient must genuinely crave for it and understand that although the bad deed done was difficult to forgive, nevertheless they will be forgiven. Both the forgiver and the forgiven should obtain relief and benefit from the process in equal measures.

I don't see why the perpetrator should be given such consideration. Their desiries generally stop mattering after they commit the action they need to be forgiven for.

I should note that there's a difference between an error of knowledge and a moral failing. If you screw up because you don't know, it's not something that needs to be forgiven. It's something that needs to be fixed, but that's something else entirely. You fix a leaky roof, you don't forgive it. Errors of knowledge are concrete problems with concrete solutions. Errors of judgement are a bit less acceptable; they may be due to ignorance (I don't expect my four-year-old neice to be well-versed in the principles of reason, because she hasn't had enough time to learn them), or they could be moral failings. It depends, and can be hard to differentiate. Moral failures are when someone takes an action they know to be wrong. These may warrant forgiveness (in the sense of "We both know you did it, but it was a stupid mistake you learned from and won't do again, so let's move on"), or they may warrant completely removing the person from your life. Regardless, moral failures are the only category where forgiveness is a factor. And if someone knows they're doing something wrong, their desires deserve no consideration.