Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Machiavelli]

The interesting thing about this from the testimony we now have is that C&V asked Stefanoni twice for the control data before they had completed their report and as of the morning of their testimony had still not received it. This was not exactly sprung on her as a surprise. She knew they wanted it beforehand and did not give it to them.

It's false, and provably false, because, on one hand we perfectly know C&V never requested control data in their e-mails, and on the other hand we also know that they declared that they had obtained from Stefanoni all what they had requested.

An embarassed Vecchiotti also admitted in her testimony she never requested control data files.

 

[RoseMontague]

My intent is not to be rude, but I am stunned by how just devoid of any argument your comments often are. I'd say they often appear as mere invectives. A sterile "you are wrong" or "tis is dat" with a two line rethorical emballishment.
Btw: you "believe" Spezi, but you apparently did not gather information about the case agaisnt him yet.
To this, my only comment is I agree that all lectures and information given to you would be uselsess; the entire procedure code would be useless, I'm afraid lectures by any professor would be a worthless waste of time.

I am not interested in who Amanda Knox "really is" and rightly so, because "who" she "is" has no relevance in relation with facts about the case, and this is something obvious to any rational person. (however, still Knox is the person who appears, not the person the pro-Knox advocates describe).

But you, are not interested in basically anything at all. You "believe" Spezi, and you don't search for documentation or independent information about his case. You "believed" (or you believe?) Sfarzo. You made a mistake when you said the half-luminol print was the only or useful footprint attributed to Amanda, and your "reasoning" (or lack thereof) depends on a small toe, which in your logic overturns the whole evidence.

What stuns me are your claims that Amanda was sexually attracted to Meredith. That Hellmann was bribed by American media figures and paid through Italian Masons. That Amanda was writing in secret Mafia code. That posters here are racists because they appeared in a picture at a party. That Amanda's supporters are filthy Mafioso. And the theory of the house baked bread.

I have friends of friends that tell me I am doing fine arguing for innocence. I prefer to believe them over you.

Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

 

[Machiavelli]

The entire argument needs to be a prosecution argument proving beyond a reasonable doubt that something happened, in this case murder.

The prosecution needs to prove their whole argument, that is only what they need to prove guilt, not a specific argument chosen by the defence.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's false, and provably false, because, on one hand we perfectly know C&V never requested control data in their e-mails, and on the other hand we also know that they declared that they had obtained from Stefanoni all what they had requested.

An embarassed Vecchiotti also admitted in her testimony she never requested control data files.

Seriously Mach, you have their e-mails? Hmmmmm. We know no such thing.

 

[acbytesla]

Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide:

Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide: Clinical, Forensic,
and Investigative Considerations

Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide:
http://www.jaapl.org/content/27/2/227.full.pdf

Burglary is the third most common crime, behind larceny-theft and motor vehicle theft (FBI Urzifornz Crinze Reports, 1997). The vast majority of break-ins are committed for gain. Nevertheless, a number of burglaries are sexually motivated and are very important in the understanding and prediction of serious violent crime, particularly sexual homicide. The relationship of burglary to sexual murder has been noted by many investigators,

Because our exploratory study (combined with the findings of others) shows that about 40 percent of sexual murderers have a history of burglary, individuals with such a background should become prime suspects in an investigation. iebert notes that, in cases of sexual murder, "any suspect with a history of burglary or assault must be thoroughly investigated for a history
which has either been distorted by the Court or inadequately investigated" (p.
198). In cases where a woman is killed in her residence. we have found that there is about a 77 percent chance that the offender has a history of sexual burglary.

 

[Machiavelli]

What stuns me are your claims that Amanda was sexually attracted to Meredith. That Hellmann was bribed by American media figures and paid through Italian Masons. That Amanda was writing in secret Mafia code.

No. This wording is an invention of folks lik Bill Williams. I said "mafia-style", not "mafia code".

That posters here are racists because they appeared in a picture at a party.

They are racists quite for other reasons, but the fact that they are all whites tends to confirm it.

That Amanda's supporters are filthy Mafioso.

You are right being stunned by these remarks, because racism and omerta' are the aspects of their behaviour that stunned me most, too.
All such racism and prejuedice is very chilling to me, also because sveral of these people seem to believe they are leftists or liberal.

And the theory of the house baked bread.

I have friends of friends that tell me I am doing fine arguing for innocence. I prefer to believe them over you.

Of course you will always chose to believe rather than think.

 

[Strozzi]

. . . They have alibi until about 9:30. TOD has no relevance. Is that why they didn't take her temperature until midnight and didn't weigh her?

Mignini reported said he regrets not allowing Lalli to take the body temperature earlier. Mignini deliberately delayed it until midnight. I would like to ask why Mignini delayed it? What could his reason have been?

 

[kwill]

I spent all day yesterday with Amanda and her friends and family.

She is a warm, sweet-natured person and a delight to be around. She runs with a small circle of intelligent, likable friends with productive lives. She has solid career prospects waiting for her when she graduates this year, because of the excellent impression she had made on people who have worked with her.

People who know her well - her peers, her family, older adults - think highly of her.

That's so good to hear. Thank you.

 

[Bill Williams]

No. This wording is an invention of folks lik Bill Williams. I said "mafia-style", not "mafia code".

LOL

They are racists quite for other reasons, but the fact that they are all whites tends to confirm it.

This in and of itself is a racist comment. I demand you retract it. Are you seriously suggesting that any group comprised of one racial group is by definition "racist"? What's the matter with you?

You are right being stunned by these remarks, because racism and omerta' are the aspects of their behaviour that stunned me most, too.
All such racism and prejuedice is very chilling to me, also because sveral of these people seem to believe they are leftists or liberal.

That you honestly believe that "omerta" applies to Seattle, that ANYONE in Seattle willfully neglected to mention that a teenager once played an April's fool's prank, shows your confirmation bias and your reasoning skills.

M... this is laughable.

Of course you will always chose to believe rather than think.

Pot. Black. (Oooops, now you will claim I am racist against "pots". Are you for real, M.? What's going on this evening in you life for you to embarrass yourself like this?)

 

[Machiavelli]

Seriously Mach, you have their e-mails? Hmmmmm. We know no such thing.

No I don't have them. But I know that 1) Comodi has them and has cited them; 2) Vecchiotti admitted she never requested negative controls; 3) Vecchiotti said she obtained all what she had requested from Stefanoni; 4) the Knox supporters, including Dempsey and Charlie Wilkes, never posted Vecchiotti's e-mails, means they never had alements to claim the contrary.
The above 1,2,3,4 imply => we know what is written Vecchiotti emails, with reference to the negative controls: nothing; and we know that she never requsted negative controls nor complaind about missing negative controls in her e-mail (it's called logic; you basically need to think, not to believe).

 

[RoseMontague]

No I don't have them. But I know that 1) Comodi has them and has cited them; 2) Vecchiotti admitted she never requested negative controls; 3) Vecchiotti said she obtained all what she had requested from Stefanoni; 4) the Knox supporters, including Dempsey and Charlie Wilkes, never posted Vecchiotti's e-mails, means they never had alements to claim the contrary.
The above 1,2,3,4 imply => we know what is written Vecchiotti emails, with reference to the negative controls: nothing; and we know that she never requsted negative controls nor complaind about missing negative controls in her e-mail (it's called logic; you basically need to think, not to believe).

Here is the quote from the testimony...

DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... if they are negative controls
of this morning, we still do not find it huh.
PROSECUTOR - As of this morning?
PRESIDENT - Yes we checked there at the hearing of
reference ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Also Chairman us but we do not
have them found.
THE PRESIDENT - That was October 8 as I understand it.
Vecchiotti C. - Me, I electropherograms that were me
posted on October 8, there are ...
PROSECUTOR - Now pull out the minutes of
delivery. But even if you found them did not hear
the need to require it to Stefanoni?
Vecchiotti C. - I asked twice to Dr. Stefanoni
electropherograms assuming that they would
entered.
PROSECUTOR - What would incorporate electropherograms
related to negative samples?
Vecchiotti C. - No, I would ... electropherograms in which
there were the samples, there was a negative control, because
should not be there?
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but when he saw that there were no ...
CONTI S. - We have requested another time.

 

[Strawberry]

A documentary called "Is Amanda Knox Guilty?" will be broadcast on BBC 3 at 9pm Monday February 17th. The programme is co-produced by Andrea Vogt and features interviews with Meredith Kercher's family, Mignini and others. It also contains an audio recording – which has not been heard in public before – of part of Knox's police interrogation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/meredith-kercher-knox-sollecito-family-murdered

 

[MDDVS]

No I don't have them. But I know that 1) Comodi has them and has cited them; 2) Vecchiotti admitted she never requested negative controls; 3) Vecchiotti said she obtained all what she had requested from Stefanoni; 4) the Knox supporters, including Dempsey and Charlie Wilkes, never posted Vecchiotti's e-mails, means they never had alements to claim the contrary.
The above 1,2,3,4 imply => we know what is written Vecchiotti emails, with reference to the negative controls: nothing; and we know that she never requsted negative controls nor complaind about missing negative controls in her e-mail (it's called logic; you basically need to think, not to believe).

Number 4 is not logical. Your conclusion in that point doesn't follow from the premise.

 

[davefoc]

This is the best you can do?

You say that, "Yes, it is true that in 90% of cases or more stomach empties within 2-2.5 hours". Ok.... let's agree that's true.

Let's not. Machiavelli either misspoke or didn't understand the issue. It is not the time to empty the stomach that is in question. It is the time before the stomach begins emptying into the duodenum that is in question. Halkides has a good discussion of the issue on his blog:
http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2012/07/time-of-death-in-murder-of-meredith.html

The time to begin to empty the stomach is known as t(lag) and is different for the time for the stomach to reach have empty t(1/2). Halkides discusses some of the issues involved in estimating t(lag). He cites the results of an 82 person study that found an average t(lag) of 82 minutes. The longest t(lag) in the study was 200 minutes.

Halkides blog post: http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2012/07/time-of-death-in-murder-of-meredith.html

You then go on to describe all the issues which may, repeat only may, describe the other 10% of cases, again using nothing at all which describes this case as circumstances - but then again, if they ARE the circumstances, it's still, by your own admission, a 90% to 10% proposition that poor Meredtih, based on stomach contents, was gone by 9:30.

Think on that. Even you admit there's a 90% chance she was gone by 9:30 based solely on stomach contents,

And in accepting that there's only a 10% chance this might not be true, you're engaging in a 6 year campaign to put Sollecito and Knox in jail?

I will not use the word I had reserved for you, sir, because it would not survive moderation.

It's no wonder why you never attempt a comprehensive theory of this crime. ...

I agree with this take on Machiavelli's post. Of course, stomach contents are far from the only other evidence that points to a pre 10 PM time of death. These have been listed many times in this thread and in combination produce a compelling argument for a TOD before 10PM with or without the evidence based on the stomach contents.

And then there is the fact that Machiavelli laced his post with unsubstantiated speculation about a meal that lasted from 18:30 to 20:00 PM. The evidence points to a meal that was begun roughly at 18:00 and was finished by 18:15 followed by an apple crumble that was consumed at about 19:35. Perhaps Machiavelli assumes that the stomach acts as a bag with homogeneous contents that don't begin to pass into the duodenum until the entire contents are all in the same state of digestion. The is not the case. The stomach can separate digestion components into different areas so that the food first eaten can pass into the duodenum when it is ready. I don't think anybody has found papers on this point directly, but in the face of common sense there is no reason to think that the t(lag) clock is reset when somebody eats a bit of food long after an earlier meal.

Machiavelli also claims that the TOD doesn't matter because he can imagine Knox and Sollecito could have traveled over to the cottage, cooperated in the murder and then decided to watch another cartoon. Yikes. This is an argument?

There was also the classic Machiavelli explanation as to why none of this matters unless the TOD based alibi is certain. His argument is that the evidence is so strong against Knox and Sollecito that even a very good alibi isn't strong enough to counter the evidence against them.

What a steaming pile of crap. Machiavelli's favorite argument that constitutes this incredible evidence is his multiple attacker fantasies. There is zero evidence to believe a multiple attacker scenario. How did these hypothetical accomplices manage to leave no trace of themselves in the blood and gore? How did they manage to leave no trace of themselves in the murder room (excluding the sad joke of the DNA on the bra clasp evidence). Wake up Machiavelli. It doesn't take two other people to overcome a 110 pound woman when the attacker is an strong athletic man armed with a knife. Your argument that the large number of bruises on Kercher implies multiple attackers is nonsense. A large number of bruises indicates that Kercher put up something of a struggle. There would have been no struggle if three people had attacked Kercher. Two would have been enough to completely immobilize her while the third killed her. Your fantasies about this nonsense belie your biases.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

My intent is not to be rude, but I am stunned by how just devoid of any argument your comments often are.

You should not be surprised. This is because you do not reply intelligibly to posts which do present cogent arguments. Thus all that is left for you to reply to are the comments devoid of argument.

Any time you actually want to try to present a coherent timeline of the crime which includes all the known facts there are plenty of people here who would love to have that discussion. The fact that you cannot do this indicates to me that the best the prosecution case can do on this topic is to change the subject and pretend that it doesn't matter if a crime is impossible, as long as the defendant looks osmotically guilty of something.

 

[Sonia]

A documentary called "Is Amanda Knox Guilty?" will be broadcast on BBC 3 at 9pm Monday February 17th. The programme is co-produced by Andrea Vogt and features interviews with Meredith Kercher's family, Mignini and others. It also contains an audio recording – which has not been heard in public before – of part of Knox's police interrogation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/meredith-kercher-knox-sollecito-family-murdered

That little snippet is from December 17, 2007. How much more valuable it would be to hear recordings from her interrogation in November, in the days following Meredith's murder.

 

[Bill Williams]

A documentary called "Is Amanda Knox Guilty?" will be broadcast on BBC 3 at 9pm Monday February 17th. The programme is co-produced by Andrea Vogt and features interviews with Meredith Kercher's family, Mignini and others. It also contains an audio recording – which has not been heard in public before – of part of Knox's police interrogation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/meredith-kercher-knox-sollecito-family-murdered

I don't think that's true. If it is an audio recording, it is from some other time, where Vogt claims Knox is discussing why she came to believe Lumumba had something to do with this.

It would be troubling in the extreme if they played the interrogation tape... and did not play all of it. That alone would raise more questions than the cherry-picked answers neatly clipped out.

But we will see.

 

[RoseMontague]

Number 4 is not logical. Your conclusion in that point doesn't follow from the premise.

It is really called confirmed in the court transcripts that they asked Stefi twice for them and did not get them.

 

[RandyN]

I also don't care about how you use it while talking around, just don't use it when talking with me.



If Italian judges acquitted her (as some did), I would be against Italian judges. Don't assume that my position comes from a "loyalty" to some authority.
I do think that duodenum, Skype call and Meredith's call are pointless. They are all meaningless, not exaclty in the same degree (stomach content has some factual element more compared to the other two, while the two others are poor desperate conjectures), but anyway meaningless.

This from the same guy(s) who will now argue that luminol "footprints" , a crude bathmat footprint, and an impossible DNA finding on a random picked knife blade are meaningful. Clownish PGP argument. I think Yummi/Mach is certainly a PGP.

 

[MDDVS]

It is really called confirmed in the court transcripts that they asked Stefi twice for them and did not get them.

It's just a bit annoying that a certain poster is posturing as a "master logician" and yet his posts are often filled with easy to spot logical fallacies.