Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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It didn't...

Grinder and LJ simply wish to avoid working on a reasonable argument to explain how the Italian judicial system screwed and continues to screw up this case so badly in spite of overwhelming evidence that RS and AK had nothing at all to do with this murder and in fact the evidence is overwhelming that Rudy Guede alone robbed, raped and murdered poor Miss Kercher.

Mignini wore nice suits every day...and yet he is either correct or is perhaps a lying cheating corrupt maniac who has a demonstrated tendency to "over-think" a case. :-) Which do you think is closer to reality? Please include a mention of the double body swap theory of Mignini if defending this well dressed man.

There are still two "outs" Italy has. I have no idea, and no way of knowing really, if either or both stand a snow ball's chance of saving Italy embarrassment and Sollecito and Knox hell.

First Cassazione next year could suddenly find sanity and completely contradict the decision it made in Mar 2013.

Second, all court decisions everywhere allow for some sort of executive oversight of last resort.... Presidential pardons, although I'm told in Italy this executive function is held by their legislature. Machiavelli can help us with that.

Unfortunately, this could be an executive decree 30 years from now, similar to a country which apologizes and compensates for some past wrong.

It's just hard for a system to reverse itself.

But I'll bet you something. If and when there's a pardon like that, you can bet they'll be future laughter when they're reminded that a tshirt was part of the mess. And they won't be laughing at Knox or her misapprehension that innocence is obvious.
 
FWIW RG was not charged or convicted of sexual assault of MK despite evidence of sexual contact (I do not know if the family were agreeable to this); AK and RS were charged with sexual assault (although there is zero evidence of sexual contact) the family seem agreeable to this. Whilst I cannot reference family views this is clearly the prosecution view and the family seem supportive of the prosecution approach in general.



Yep exactly.

Plus Guede was also not charged with theft even with his DNA found on the purse of poor Miss Kercher. Meanwhile AK and RS were charged with theft even though nothing AT ALL is in evidence that they were involved, let alone anything meriting an additional charge of stealing. Italian logic that Yummi/Mach has ridiculously tried to wave away...cant steal from the dead, but somehow he never mentions how AK and RS could steal from the dead??? Whatever. Nutty fruitloops.

So Guede DNA inside MK vagina = no sexual assault
Guede DNA on purse zipper = no theft.


Meanwhile Grinder and LJ think Knox style in court was the tipping point of this case...:-) No, I know you dont think that but what the hey???

Address the illogical, stupid, crazy conclusions that Italy made and continues to make in this grossly wrongful prosecution please?
 
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BTW, I agree that ULTIMATELY the innocent are protected by innocence. The truth will out. The question is when: Twenty years? Ten years? Two years? You play the game to speed the process.
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The Norfolk 4 link Caper posted upstream mentions this is a false belief.
Maybe in the movies the truth is found and the bad guys lose, but in reality this doesnt always happen.

In Italy they can actually silence the truth even easier with bullying/intimidation tactics. Ex. Amanda mentioning the "slaps" during the interrogation. She was charged and years in prison added to her sentence for just saying the police "slapped her twice". Imagine that! Just saying someone slapped you and you get years in prison given to you.

How do you get the truth in this type of environment?
I would guess you don't.
 
Bill falls in love with certain words. He likes psychopathy. I don't find the word even once in Massei.

Mach further suggests that there is a special hearing for this determination which never happened in this case. He is saying that the prosecution never made a formal case that they had a psychopathy.

It would appear that if they did have a psychopathy that might be something that would be like mentally incompetent here.

Other than 'footpath' there is no word with 'path' in it that I understand. In an English court we would render the highlighted text from Massei by saying they were young people of previous good character, especially no history of violence, who acted without premeditation. Does Mach disagree with that?
 
Yep exactly.

Plus Guede was also not charged with theft even with his DNA found on the purse of poor Miss Kercher. Meanwhile AK and RS were charged with theft even though nothing AT ALL is in evidence that they were involved, let alone anything meriting an additional charge of stealing. Italian logic that Yummi/Mach has ridiculously tried to wave away...cant steal from the dead, but somehow he never mentions how AK and RS could steal from the dead??? Whatever. Nutty fruitloops.

So Guede DNA inside MK vagina = no sexual assault
Guede DNA on purse zipper = no theft.


Meanwhile Grinder and LJ think Knox style in court was the tipping point of this case...:-) No, I know you dont think that but what the hey???

Address the illogical, stupid, crazy conclusions that Italy made and continues to make in this grossly wrongful prosecution please?

The tipping point was when a dozen member of the Italy's finest (this is sarcasm in Italy) stood behind a a bank of microphones and cameras and declared to Italy, and the world, "Caso Chiuso" .
 
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But Rudy said he knew her in the Skype call. They were introduced and then went back to the boys' apartment where they spent more than hour partying.

At first FOA claimed they had never met - Dempsey may have reported that but not worth looking.

If she murdered Meredith with Rudy, I wouldn't expect her to admit they hung out. Would you?

If it were true, yes, because she might otherwise be caught out by witnesses.
 
But Rudy said he knew her in the Skype call. They were introduced and then went back to the boys' apartment where they spent more than hour partying.

At first FOA claimed they had never met - Dempsey may have reported that but not worth looking.

I think they were in the same place twice, and spoke once. "Never met" is too strong, but "didn't know" is about right.

If she murdered Meredith with Rudy, I wouldn't expect her to admit they hung out. Would you?

I would expect this to have come out if they had indeed hung out. Someone would have known about this hanging out.
 
Originally Posted by RandyN View Post
It will all eventually come out. It always does. For now lets sit back and see if Yummi/Mach has the pride and knowledge to reply with a time line like you asked for. I'm betting he does not. He does not because he can not! Simple really.

Somehow they both managed to survive four years in prison without being destroyed. another ten or more is something else. Eventually, history will probably declare them innocence but that is a long time.

Besides, look at Cameron Todd Willingham. . .Executed for arson that he is very unlikely to have committed.

Hard to argue with this or the countless others that have been wrongly incarcerated for decades or executed for crimes that they didn't commit. The world may come to the realization that they made a mistake, but I can't imagine spending years behind bars for something I didn't do. Doesnt' really help to be innocent to spend your thirties in an Italian prison for something you didn't do.
 
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But Rudy said he knew her in the Skype call. They were introduced and then went back to the boys' apartment where they spent more than hour partying.

At first FOA claimed they had never met - Dempsey may have reported that but not worth looking.

If she murdered Meredith with Rudy, I wouldn't expect her to admit they hung out. Would you?

Of course not, that said, Amanda had been in Perugia all of 42 days and she was introduced to Rudy two weeks before the murder and she was almost joined at the hip to Raffaele the 7 days leading up to the murder. No one had ever seen Rudy with Amanda other than saying hello to him during that introduction and taking his drink order. And of course we know that Rudy Guede was electronically challenged. Amanda is the busy student with friends, roommates and a new boyfriend.

I'm thoroughly convinced that this is the extent that Amanda "knew" Rudy. But what the hell, I think she is innocent.
 
The Norfolk 4 link Caper posted upstream mentions this is a false belief.
Maybe in the movies the truth is found and the bad guys lose, but in reality this doesnt always happen.

In Italy they can actually silence the truth even easier with bullying/intimidation tactics. Ex. Amanda mentioning the "slaps" during the interrogation. She was charged and years in prison added to her sentence for just saying the police "slapped her twice". Imagine that! Just saying someone slapped you and you get years in prison given to you.

How do you get the truth in this type of environment?
I would guess you don't.

The tougher the environment, the more one can't afford to mess around. That's why I think the sweatshirt incident was worth avoiding. Did wearing a Beatle's shirt sway the verdict? Probably not. But don't make a bad situation worse.

How will the truth find its way out? I don't know. Worst case, it doesn't for a long, long time. I suspect someday we'll get more pieces of the story from somewhere... the lawyers, a lab technician, someone present at the interrogation. I don't think Guede could tell the truth if he wanted to.
 
Pacelli's interrogation of Amanda about Rudy

Of course not, that said, Amanda had been in Perugia all of 42 days and she was introduced to Rudy two weeks before the murder and she was almost joined at the hip to Raffaele the 7 days leading up to the murder. No one had ever seen Rudy with Amanda other than saying hello to him during that introduction and taking his drink order. And of course we know that Rudy Guede was electronically challenged. Amanda is the busy student with friends, roommates and a new boyfriend.

I'm thoroughly convinced that this is the extent that Amanda "knew" Rudy. But what the hell, I think she is innocent.


If interested,
Komponisto did an excellent translation a few years back
of Amanda's original courtroom Q+A testimony regarding meeting Rudy Guede:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6731516#post6731516

He also linked this 21:28 long Italian video of Amanda Knox's courtroom testimony, which still works, so like a juror in the court of public opinion, you can hear 1st hand her answers, some in English, some Italian, see her dress and mannerisms as she discusses meeting Guede, receiving and deleting that text from her boss Lumumba, discussing the night of that fate full interrogation, etc:
http://www.youreporter.it/video_La_deposizione_completa_di_Amanda_Knox_1
 
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The problem is there seem to be a lot of mistakes in this case. Unlike others I do not think there was a conspiracy. Incompetence maybe. E.g. Arresting and charging Patrik on the basis of the late night distraught ramblings of a traumatised witness. (Why was his bar kept closed for so long?) Getting the timing on the video camera to be fast rather than slow. Damaging the hard drives. Misidentifying the bloody shoe print as matching the trainer of RS when it was definitely NOT a match (surely incompetence?), but was a match to trainer of RG, failing to collect the bra fastener at the first investigation of the crime scene. Failing to follow proper procedure in collecting samples. Failing to store the bra fastener correctly such that it could be retested. Failing to present the results of all tests done (both positive and negative for blood). Failing to take an early liver temperature. Failing to do a proper quantification of DNA as per in house SOP. Getting the quantity of DNA wrong.

The other 'mistake' which I think was probably deliberate and could be regarded as conspiratorial is the HIV positive test result. If this was a laboratory false positive there should be a laboratory report available showing this. I think this was a deliberate lie and the result was negative.
 
Hard to argue with this or the countless others that have been wrongly incarcerated for decades or executed for crimes that they didn't commit. The world may come to the realization that they made a mistake, but I can't imagine spending years behind bars for something I didn't do. Doesnt' really help to be innocent to spend your thirties in an Italian prison for something you didn't do.

That is why the West Memphis Three took the plea they did
 
Is Amanda Knox guilty?

Anyone that is really interested in this case we discuss should really, really watch this courtroom video of Amanda Knox at the original Massei trial:

http://www.youreporter.it/video_La_deposizione_completa_di_Amanda_Knox_1

I've heard it said from Machiavelli and others that AK is a liar. Hmmm.

I find it odd that this murdering liar is sooo forthcoming about what she knows!
It's horribly tragic that she was even wrongfully convicted!
Look and listen folks! She has nothing to hide!

I think that it was smart for her to testify, no matter what she wore to court,
though that All You Need is Love t-shirt, at her own murder trial,
was inappropriate, in my humble surfer opinion!

I look forward to some of your opinions after you watch or re-watch that video clip...
Is Amanda Knox guilty?
RW
 
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It appears I have been placed on the “naughty step” (oh joy); nonetheless predicting that neither you nor anyone else will respond to this post I’ll make the following observation.

Guede will keep his head down until he has is freedom secured roughly about the time everything from an Italian perspective goes horribly wrong for Raffaele and Amanda. He will profess is innocence whilst ignoring any evidence of his very obvious involvement in Meredith Kercher’s murder and point the finger at others without naming anyone, of course (although 6 years of media interest, he’ll try and cherry pick what he can from the case), for sure he’ll try and bury Raffaele and Amanda. The global media (feigning public interest) will sell their Mothers, beloved sibling’s, body parts and even editorial reputation (irony) to ensure they get the global exclusive from Guede (cha ching), of course will blow any money and end up back in prison just like OJ.

Poor you, on the naughty step.

FWIW, I too was disgusted by the comment you objected to. Several people were. Several said so. IMO no one liked it, but most thought it best to ignore it.

It is not the first time I've been disgusted by a comment here. But I must say: good, solid, informative comments far outweigh occasional lapses, and I have no doubt the ratio of "insult-the-principal" comments to informative comments is astronomically higher on the guilter sites.

FWIW, I don't believe the comment was aimed at Meredith. I think it was a poke at the irrationality of the Kerchers. Doesn't change the fact that it was in poor taste.

But I write because I don't know how you fail to see that people here care deeply about justice for Meredith. The forum comprises six years of comments: of course they echo, of course some are lame and, on occasion, objectionable. I don't think people can discuss any subject for six years without *occasionally* saying something crass.

But the overall tone is clear. I don't see how you miss it. This forum has some amazingly bright and clear-thinking posters who care deeply for Meredith. They don't see the situation as Meredith versus Amanda/Raff: that's a PGP construct. They see the goal as justice for ALL.

A few weeks ago, you wrote touchingly about seeing Mrs. Kercher in the grocery and thinking "there but for the grace of god go I." (Well, that's a paraphrase.) Coulsdon, please know ALL us parents (and the non-parents too) feel that way. We ALL mourn the loss of that splendid girl. Why is it so hard for you to see that we ALSO care about Amanda and Raff? It's not one or the other. It's not British versus American -- or any other such nonsense. It's truth versus a shet storm of railroading, cultural misunderstandings, and sloppy forensics.

I understand your upset. I felt it myself. Can you understand those of us who know AK/RS are innocent ALSO feel upset when they're slandered? It happens far more often.

You talk about winning minds and hearts. Can your mind and heart be won? Why don't you tell us what keeps you from thinking the kids are innocent? I mean innocent in reality, obviously, not in a court of law. Yes, I know: you like to remind us only the court of law counts. And you'd be right if courts of law were always correct. Unfortunately for the victims of injustice, they are not.

I agree with all you say about Guede. It's distressing.
 
That is why the West Memphis Three took the plea they did

Don't get me started about plea bargaining and the number of people who just can't afford to fight. The rich can post bail and not spend time waiting for trial whereas the poor will often plead guilty because they would have to wait in jail and the horrible thought that their court appointed attorney will be no match for the state.
 
Don't get me started about plea bargaining and the number of people who just can't afford to fight. The rich can post bail and not spend time waiting for trial whereas the poor will often plead guilty because they would have to wait in jail and the horrible thought that their court appointed attorney will be no match for the state.

They took an Alford plea. . . .Basically so they could at least get out of jail.
 
A few weeks ago, you wrote touchingly about seeing Mrs. Kercher in the grocery and thinking "there but for the grace of god go I." (Well, that's a paraphrase.) Coulsdon, please know ALL us parents (and the non-parents too) feel that way. We ALL mourn the loss of that splendid girl. Why is it so hard for you to see that we ALSO care about Amanda and Raff? It's not one or the other. It's not British versus American -- or any other such nonsense. It's truth versus a shet storm of railroading, cultural misunderstandings, and sloppy forensics.


I would have a very hard time not walking up to a Kercher family member if I saw them.... I wouldn't, because I can't see any good it can do. Being a victim doesn't give you the right to destroy the lives of innocents... Actually, I think I would say that. The Kercher lawyer... I can only imagine is the scum of the earth.
 
I would have a very hard time not walking up to a Kercher family member if I saw them.... I wouldn't, because I can't see any good it can do. Being a victim doesn't give you the right to destroy the lives of innocents... Actually, I think I would say that. The Kercher lawyer... I can only imagine is the scum of the earth.

It is almost always the case where the relatives and friends of a victim will always blame those convicted even if later exonerated. That is why it is best if families are not part of the prosecution. The government is suppose to be dispassionate.
 
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